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Diallo verdict
- Thread starter aztec777
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MusclesMcGee
Moderator
12-34 horn,
It's not over till the fat lady sings. As for food, be it in a Court of law, Karma, or hell, they'll get their just deserts. This is a horrible abuse of power, and I am not buying the "incompetence" theory.
12-34, if 4 cops ever riddle you with 19 bullets because you try to obey the law, I'll make sure not to shed any tears. Hey, it was a mistake, no ones to blame right ?
It's not over till the fat lady sings. As for food, be it in a Court of law, Karma, or hell, they'll get their just deserts. This is a horrible abuse of power, and I am not buying the "incompetence" theory.
12-34, if 4 cops ever riddle you with 19 bullets because you try to obey the law, I'll make sure not to shed any tears. Hey, it was a mistake, no ones to blame right ?
panzerfuehrer
New member
Tragic? Yep. Murder? No.
There is more to this than meets the eye, just as there is more to the Rodney King business. King was (and still is) a criminal. The media didn't show you the part of the video where King attacked the police officers after being hit twice with a Taser. There was escalation of force in that case; the media simply didn't show it.
It's interesting to see all the Monday morning quarterbacks, who after all is said and done, just weren't there, and have no idea what transpired.
It would be nice if decision-making LEO's in the street had the luxury of 3 days and 20 hours the jury took to weigh evidence and render their verdicts. I'm therefore not surprised that the people who would question this verdict would certainly question the split second that was allotted those LEO's.
As for you Muscles, are you that bitter, or simply grateful that they stopped at OC for you?
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
There is more to this than meets the eye, just as there is more to the Rodney King business. King was (and still is) a criminal. The media didn't show you the part of the video where King attacked the police officers after being hit twice with a Taser. There was escalation of force in that case; the media simply didn't show it.
It's interesting to see all the Monday morning quarterbacks, who after all is said and done, just weren't there, and have no idea what transpired.
It would be nice if decision-making LEO's in the street had the luxury of 3 days and 20 hours the jury took to weigh evidence and render their verdicts. I'm therefore not surprised that the people who would question this verdict would certainly question the split second that was allotted those LEO's.
As for you Muscles, are you that bitter, or simply grateful that they stopped at OC for you?
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
12-34,
I think of lot of the munchin comes from folks who have never stood in the line of fire. Sure, some have fought in war, or in fist fights, but they never know until they are standing in the shoes of those officers. The rules are much different for Law Enfocement and sometimes the lines are real blurry with only a 10th of a second to make a call.
I have had several shoot/no shoot scenerios in REAL LIFE. It is scary, and the last thing you want to do is take a life or hurt anyone. Luckily for me they have all worked out. In one instance a guy had a REAL gun pointed at me and my 1st thought was "I'm going to get sued" followed by "I'm going to get fired." What does that say about the nature of our society? I am just lucky that it worked out OK, otherwise I would likely be dead.
There is no doubt that this was a tragety. None. I fully believe that those officers would take it all back if they could. The trouble is that it is done, no "do-overs".
For those that think the officers have gotten off "scott free," think about it. Have you ever had your life torn apart by an investigation? Have you ever had yourself protested? Have you ever suffered a criminal trial? Have you ever had your local politicians screaming for your blood? Have you had threats against you and your family? Have you had your name splashed over papers internationally while calling you a killer? Will events like this haunt you wherever you go, for the rest of your life? Will you have to live knowing that you made a tragic mistake that cost a life? Will you be sued both professionally and personally for everything you have ever owned? That is what these guys face.
A CNN comentator stated the smartest thing I have heard through all of this. He said that the jury was supposed to decide the merits of this individual case, not to try to cure all of society's ills with this case.
They saw the evidence and made the call. We weren't there, we don't know what happened other than the media push. I wasn't there, I can't know or feel what they did. Neither can anyone else. I think we would all prefer Mr. Diallo be back with us. Remember though: Two wrongs don't make a right.
[This message has been edited by Branspop (edited February 26, 2000).]
I think of lot of the munchin comes from folks who have never stood in the line of fire. Sure, some have fought in war, or in fist fights, but they never know until they are standing in the shoes of those officers. The rules are much different for Law Enfocement and sometimes the lines are real blurry with only a 10th of a second to make a call.
I have had several shoot/no shoot scenerios in REAL LIFE. It is scary, and the last thing you want to do is take a life or hurt anyone. Luckily for me they have all worked out. In one instance a guy had a REAL gun pointed at me and my 1st thought was "I'm going to get sued" followed by "I'm going to get fired." What does that say about the nature of our society? I am just lucky that it worked out OK, otherwise I would likely be dead.
There is no doubt that this was a tragety. None. I fully believe that those officers would take it all back if they could. The trouble is that it is done, no "do-overs".
For those that think the officers have gotten off "scott free," think about it. Have you ever had your life torn apart by an investigation? Have you ever had yourself protested? Have you ever suffered a criminal trial? Have you ever had your local politicians screaming for your blood? Have you had threats against you and your family? Have you had your name splashed over papers internationally while calling you a killer? Will events like this haunt you wherever you go, for the rest of your life? Will you have to live knowing that you made a tragic mistake that cost a life? Will you be sued both professionally and personally for everything you have ever owned? That is what these guys face.
A CNN comentator stated the smartest thing I have heard through all of this. He said that the jury was supposed to decide the merits of this individual case, not to try to cure all of society's ills with this case.
They saw the evidence and made the call. We weren't there, we don't know what happened other than the media push. I wasn't there, I can't know or feel what they did. Neither can anyone else. I think we would all prefer Mr. Diallo be back with us. Remember though: Two wrongs don't make a right.
[This message has been edited by Branspop (edited February 26, 2000).]
Patrick Graham
Moderator
I'm sure Janet Reno will want to hang them.
The feds will do to the diallo cops what they did to the rodney king cops. sheesh..
This will drag on for at least another year, thus giving al sharpton and other racists lots of air time. As it drags on whites will begin to feel that the feds are persecuting the cops because they are white and we, as a nation, will become more racially divided than ever.
I'll go along with the jury verdict. My brother was a cop for a while and I know it can be the most difficault job in america when it comes to making a life or death decision. He was able to get another line of work. I can tell that some of the decisions he made as a cop still bother him.
BUT...
I also know that if I had killed a man because I thought he was drawing a gun on me, and it turned out to be a wallet... I'd be in prison. I can't help but feel that somehow america have developed two classes of people, cops and civilians.
The feds will do to the diallo cops what they did to the rodney king cops. sheesh..
This will drag on for at least another year, thus giving al sharpton and other racists lots of air time. As it drags on whites will begin to feel that the feds are persecuting the cops because they are white and we, as a nation, will become more racially divided than ever.
I'll go along with the jury verdict. My brother was a cop for a while and I know it can be the most difficault job in america when it comes to making a life or death decision. He was able to get another line of work. I can tell that some of the decisions he made as a cop still bother him.
BUT...
I also know that if I had killed a man because I thought he was drawing a gun on me, and it turned out to be a wallet... I'd be in prison. I can't help but feel that somehow america have developed two classes of people, cops and civilians.
Puddle Pirate
New member
I don't think it was murder, at least by any reasonable definition I've heard, but I could see a negligence resulting in death verdict. The real blame should be placed on the politicians, and the "community leaders" who decided that unconstituional searches were a useful tool to combat violence in that area. It all really comes down to Diallo was killed by the gun-grabbers, but they will never be brought to justice
Eric
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Does the "X" ring have to be that small?
Eric
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Does the "X" ring have to be that small?
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Joey, the defense tried the race card
by challenging black jurors with pre-emptory challenges. That's what lawyers do. They will play any card for their client.
As far as the verdict, IMHO - NYC will be crucified in the civil suit and they deserve it.
The shooting was unjustified but explainable to the piss poor training of these individuals and the social context which made them prone not to be concerned with the attendant risks
of killing an innocent in that neighborhood.
I am not impressed by the BTDT after the fact rationalizations by LEOs. The approach was
so incompetent as to be negligent. Should these guys have gone to jail - I'm mixed on that.
I also think that if the cops had wasted a CHL and not Diallo, lots of the cop cheer squad here would switch to WACO mode.
It could easily happen. You walk home. The cops see you. In plain clothers and looking scrubby, they challenged you (who knows what they actually said and if they clearly identified themselves). You turn towards
them and the movement prints your Macho Man
Jeff Cooper 1911. One panics - and yells:
GUN. Even though, you didn't reach for it.
You were just startled. 41 shots later, you were reaching for your gun. It was your fault that you didn't respond correctly.
It was not Diallo's fault. It was the fault of the police. And it could be you just as easily - esp. if you are a poor guy in a bad neighborhood.
by challenging black jurors with pre-emptory challenges. That's what lawyers do. They will play any card for their client.
As far as the verdict, IMHO - NYC will be crucified in the civil suit and they deserve it.
The shooting was unjustified but explainable to the piss poor training of these individuals and the social context which made them prone not to be concerned with the attendant risks
of killing an innocent in that neighborhood.
I am not impressed by the BTDT after the fact rationalizations by LEOs. The approach was
so incompetent as to be negligent. Should these guys have gone to jail - I'm mixed on that.
I also think that if the cops had wasted a CHL and not Diallo, lots of the cop cheer squad here would switch to WACO mode.
It could easily happen. You walk home. The cops see you. In plain clothers and looking scrubby, they challenged you (who knows what they actually said and if they clearly identified themselves). You turn towards
them and the movement prints your Macho Man
Jeff Cooper 1911. One panics - and yells:
GUN. Even though, you didn't reach for it.
You were just startled. 41 shots later, you were reaching for your gun. It was your fault that you didn't respond correctly.
It was not Diallo's fault. It was the fault of the police. And it could be you just as easily - esp. if you are a poor guy in a bad neighborhood.
jeffelkins
New member
Glenn has made some excellent points.
I'm glad the cops escaped jail (so far) but civilly, they & NYC deserve to be slammed.
I still think that if I as a CCW made a similar grevious error, I'd be in jail.
I'm glad the cops escaped jail (so far) but civilly, they & NYC deserve to be slammed.
I still think that if I as a CCW made a similar grevious error, I'd be in jail.
theprisoner
New member
I do not like the "Yea we won" attitude. A man who was not a criminal was killed. I for one am sick of hearing all the excuses for LEO these days. I have come to the point where I actually fear cops more than criminals. In the state that I live in there have been a number of questionable law enforcment shootings in the last year including one where a cop shot an unarmed suspect while he was on his knees and his back towards the officer. That cop is now on trial for murder. How much you want bet he gets away with it? I'm sorry but I see to many LEO drawing and using their weapons these days. Just watch COPS some night and you see officers drawing their weapons on people for minor offenses. For example I saw an episode where they had a sting operation going on and they had a female officer posing as a hooker. When some poor guy would make a deal with her the other cops would come out of their hiding spots, guns drawn, jump on the guy, cuff him while pointing their guns at his head. Not good. I know I am going to get flamed for my views but I'm sorry, this is the way I feel. There is a line from a movie with Mickey Rourke called "Barfly" that sums up my feeling towards cops "I do'nt hate cops, I just feel better when the're not around".
panzerfuehrer
New member
Well Prisoner,I go along with your liking for malt whiskey and firearms, but not much else. I still won't flame you for your views, though. :d
I gather you live in CT and refer to Officer Scott Smith. Let's not forget to mention that the shootee was a fleeing and wanted felon who was reaching into the pocket later found to contain a knife.
As for COPS, it is ENTERTAINMENT, and should really be viewed as such.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
I gather you live in CT and refer to Officer Scott Smith. Let's not forget to mention that the shootee was a fleeing and wanted felon who was reaching into the pocket later found to contain a knife.
As for COPS, it is ENTERTAINMENT, and should really be viewed as such.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Branspop: Anytime this type of situation ends in the death of a human being it's tragic as you well know. But as police officers that's the reality of this job: that someday it might be nessacary to take a human life. As such mistakes can be made, that's the nature of the beast when dealing in human frailities. The jury did thier best and rendered what they thought was a correct verdict. Our system still works.... Folks like Mr. Magee have to vent thier hate and frustration on something or one. [BIG YAWN]. This clouds thier judgement, never allowing them to make an informed decision. Hopefully lessons learned here will prevent another tragic incident of this ilk.
Ed Brunner
New member
I dont think it was murder and I will tell you why I think the police were at fault.
Brunner's Third Law holds that you do not create a situation that you can't control.
In my opinion the fault lies with the NYPD. These men were doing exactly what was expected of them. I dont fault them for shooting the man. I fault then for willingly putting themselves in a situation that they couldn't control.
Which one was in charge of the team?
What were his instructions?
Etc.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Brunner's Third Law holds that you do not create a situation that you can't control.
In my opinion the fault lies with the NYPD. These men were doing exactly what was expected of them. I dont fault them for shooting the man. I fault then for willingly putting themselves in a situation that they couldn't control.
Which one was in charge of the team?
What were his instructions?
Etc.
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Better days to be,
Ed
theprisoner
New member
Yes I do live in CT. As for the Smith trial I just read today's paper and three witness's testified that that the suspect was subdued and on the ground at the time. My view is that Smith shot the suspect by accident and came up with the story about reaching for the knife later. The knife by the way was a small swiss army type knife. I really doubt he was reaching for it. As for COPS being entertainment it may be but I think it is a pretty good depiction of what goes on in the world of law enforcment. I don't think LEO's operate much different than what you see.
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I AM NOT NUMBER! I AM A FREE MAN!
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I AM NOT NUMBER! I AM A FREE MAN!
panzerfuehrer
New member
Kneeling is not on the ground and cuffed, and a knife is a knife. Anyone having been on the business end of one is aware that they are weapons as capable of inflicting damage as a firearm. Witnesses were pretty far away, too.
COPS is most definitely entertainment, good instruction on what NOT to do as an LEO, and in my experience, a pretty far cry from reality.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
COPS is most definitely entertainment, good instruction on what NOT to do as an LEO, and in my experience, a pretty far cry from reality.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Dennis Olson
New member
On the other thread, a member asked, "...Should these guys be placed in prison for that mistake?..."
They killed an INNOCENT, UNARMED human being. Evidently, they were members of the "shoot first, ask questions later" group of LEO's.
Yes, IMHO they should be in prison, or AT LEAST removed from serving in ANY police agency for the remainder of their lives.
And the city owes his family a BUNCH of money.
(And NO, I'm NOT a liberal)
They killed an INNOCENT, UNARMED human being. Evidently, they were members of the "shoot first, ask questions later" group of LEO's.
Yes, IMHO they should be in prison, or AT LEAST removed from serving in ANY police agency for the remainder of their lives.
And the city owes his family a BUNCH of money.
(And NO, I'm NOT a liberal)
WHA WHA WHA!!! BOO-FREAKING-HOO
LEOs have a hard job, WHA. LEOs have a dangerous job, WHA. LEOs have a risky job, WHA. Gimme a break. Enough with this BS about LEOs and their job.
MANY people have jobs that put them at risk or danger and are hard too. Lets name a few: Firemen, Taxi Drivers, 7-11 Clerks, Soldiers. Anyone cry for these guys about how hard their jobs are and how danerous they are too? Not often.
Did these pigs murder Diallo? NO. Were they guilty of being trigger happy and negligant? YES.
I dont think they went out looking to kill someone, lets get that straight. But are they destroyed over having shot him? No. They're just happy that THEY are alive, and not in jail. BUT I dont think they are high fiving each other.
--Forgot to add this part--
*I never said that the cops shot after they reloaded. I said that they reloaded. Thats it.*
Please read this, and YOU will know were I stand on this issue, and things like it.
There have been MANY recent incidents with the police that have, to say the least, scared the crap out of me. I'll start by pointing some of them out...
1- SWAT raid of Mr. Paz's home, man is shot dead.
2- Louima(sp?) is beaten and raped with a plunger in a NYC PD.
3- Diallo is gunned down.
4- LAPD corruption, a few thousand cases must be investigated, INNOCENT people are shot, beaten, testimony is fabricated, etc.
5- At least 3 other NO-knock SWAT raids, resulting in a deaths of innocent persons.
These are just a few cases of many. Now, is it just me, or do YOU too see a trend developing? WTF?
Its clear that our police forces are becoming more and more militant, but is this really the answer? It CANNOT be a fear of crime, since its been dropping for 30 years. Lack of funding/training maybe?
To me, it just seems that a lot of these young cops are joing the force with the mentality of "I wear the badge, Im GOD!" They have itchy trigger fingers, and are looking to put their training to use. Especially SWAT teams (I loath these people). This is what I think the problem is.
Take these things into consideration before you pat the LEOs on the back.
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If you are a SWAT memeber, Im sorry, but I will NOT retract my comment. I dont want to intentionally offend anyone, but if I do, so-be-it.
[This message has been edited by BigPig (edited February 26, 2000).]
LEOs have a hard job, WHA. LEOs have a dangerous job, WHA. LEOs have a risky job, WHA. Gimme a break. Enough with this BS about LEOs and their job.
MANY people have jobs that put them at risk or danger and are hard too. Lets name a few: Firemen, Taxi Drivers, 7-11 Clerks, Soldiers. Anyone cry for these guys about how hard their jobs are and how danerous they are too? Not often.
Did these pigs murder Diallo? NO. Were they guilty of being trigger happy and negligant? YES.
I dont think they went out looking to kill someone, lets get that straight. But are they destroyed over having shot him? No. They're just happy that THEY are alive, and not in jail. BUT I dont think they are high fiving each other.
--Forgot to add this part--
*I never said that the cops shot after they reloaded. I said that they reloaded. Thats it.*
Please read this, and YOU will know were I stand on this issue, and things like it.
There have been MANY recent incidents with the police that have, to say the least, scared the crap out of me. I'll start by pointing some of them out...
1- SWAT raid of Mr. Paz's home, man is shot dead.
2- Louima(sp?) is beaten and raped with a plunger in a NYC PD.
3- Diallo is gunned down.
4- LAPD corruption, a few thousand cases must be investigated, INNOCENT people are shot, beaten, testimony is fabricated, etc.
5- At least 3 other NO-knock SWAT raids, resulting in a deaths of innocent persons.
These are just a few cases of many. Now, is it just me, or do YOU too see a trend developing? WTF?
Its clear that our police forces are becoming more and more militant, but is this really the answer? It CANNOT be a fear of crime, since its been dropping for 30 years. Lack of funding/training maybe?
To me, it just seems that a lot of these young cops are joing the force with the mentality of "I wear the badge, Im GOD!" They have itchy trigger fingers, and are looking to put their training to use. Especially SWAT teams (I loath these people). This is what I think the problem is.
Take these things into consideration before you pat the LEOs on the back.
------
If you are a SWAT memeber, Im sorry, but I will NOT retract my comment. I dont want to intentionally offend anyone, but if I do, so-be-it.
[This message has been edited by BigPig (edited February 26, 2000).]
I figure the NY state attorney's office intended to give the Diallo shooters a pass, by using charges that were inappropriate. had they been charged with criminal negligence or something along those lines, they might not have been acquitted. we amateurs are expected to ID the target and avoid forcing the issue in most jurisdictions; I think we have the right to require professionals to perform to the same expectations.
all human behavior is regulated to a large extent by "carrot and stick" constraints. in this case, the shooters had the carrot of the career benefits of a successful arrest or shootout, but not much of a stick if they screwed up. that kind of imbalance will lead to problems.
lastly, the *real* criminals in that case were probably the watch commanders and trainers. the scenario as reported makes it sound like their tactics were almost designed to inflict unnecessary casualties. the grunt level guys tend to assume that the methods of the senior guys are efficacious and acceptable, which in this case seems to have led to an avoidable death.
how many young cops have gotten additional training on their own? law enforcement is peculiar in that the results are critically important and critiqued by everyone, and the lack of training is always mentioned as the cause. yet no one ever asks why the guy in blue did not get supplemental training out-of-pocket. its as if we assume he can't afford it (LFI-1 and the like are only a few hundred dollars, fer crissakes), or couldn't absorb it or something. if I were doing a life-critical job, whether it be heart surgery or parachute packing, I'd get all the training I could possibly get, even if I had to pay for it myself and take some unpaid leave.
[This message has been edited by Ivanhoe (edited February 26, 2000).]
all human behavior is regulated to a large extent by "carrot and stick" constraints. in this case, the shooters had the carrot of the career benefits of a successful arrest or shootout, but not much of a stick if they screwed up. that kind of imbalance will lead to problems.
lastly, the *real* criminals in that case were probably the watch commanders and trainers. the scenario as reported makes it sound like their tactics were almost designed to inflict unnecessary casualties. the grunt level guys tend to assume that the methods of the senior guys are efficacious and acceptable, which in this case seems to have led to an avoidable death.
how many young cops have gotten additional training on their own? law enforcement is peculiar in that the results are critically important and critiqued by everyone, and the lack of training is always mentioned as the cause. yet no one ever asks why the guy in blue did not get supplemental training out-of-pocket. its as if we assume he can't afford it (LFI-1 and the like are only a few hundred dollars, fer crissakes), or couldn't absorb it or something. if I were doing a life-critical job, whether it be heart surgery or parachute packing, I'd get all the training I could possibly get, even if I had to pay for it myself and take some unpaid leave.
[This message has been edited by Ivanhoe (edited February 26, 2000).]
MusclesMcGee
Moderator
This is no different than Waco. Oh, but lets not forget the guys black and not a God fearing white Christian. Thats what makes the difference. Seems like the only people forgiving the cops, who have just as little substantial evidence (yet seem to be more informed than the rest of us ?) are the ones forgiving the cops and immediately bashing Al Sharpton. What the does this have to do with Al Sharpton ? What does this have to do with Rodney King ? You make it obvious why you support the police in this instance and it taints your opinion.
Oh, and lets not forget, Waco WAS a threat, they were psycho. The police knew the compound had enough munitions for a small war and Koresh was full of "The end is near" rhetoric. What did Diallo have ? Stove Top Stuffing ? How do you know the cops didn't ASK him for ID ? Isn't that the first question LEOs ask when encountering a suspect ? I was once peppersprayed for not producing an ID fast enough, does this mean I would of been shot if I complied with the officers demands ? 41 times.....inexcusable
To whoever asked, I've had a gun pulled on me three times. Apparently civilian criminals have more self control when handling a gun. I too fear the police more than criminals, and it is exactly because of actions like this. Whether this was a mistake, or intentional, it deserves a jail sentence.
[This message has been edited by MusclesMcGee (edited February 26, 2000).]
Oh, and lets not forget, Waco WAS a threat, they were psycho. The police knew the compound had enough munitions for a small war and Koresh was full of "The end is near" rhetoric. What did Diallo have ? Stove Top Stuffing ? How do you know the cops didn't ASK him for ID ? Isn't that the first question LEOs ask when encountering a suspect ? I was once peppersprayed for not producing an ID fast enough, does this mean I would of been shot if I complied with the officers demands ? 41 times.....inexcusable
To whoever asked, I've had a gun pulled on me three times. Apparently civilian criminals have more self control when handling a gun. I too fear the police more than criminals, and it is exactly because of actions like this. Whether this was a mistake, or intentional, it deserves a jail sentence.
[This message has been edited by MusclesMcGee (edited February 26, 2000).]
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