Defensive round, when JHP is illegal

lee n. field said:
Estonia, by any chance? There's a guy from Estonia on TFL, who's mentioned limitations like that.
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Good guess :)

Andrewsky said:
What country are you in?
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Estonia (North Eastern Europe)

cslinger said:
I always chuckle at these threads. We are all gun geeks and want the best high speed low drag stuff we can get (present poster just as guilty) but at the end of the day there are millions of folks with an old Webley revolver or SAA or Taurus or .380 PPK or any number of other arms loaded up with either the cheapest ball ammo around or ammo made a century ago and they have in many cases defended themselves just fine.
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The thing I should perhaps have made clear in the first post, is that I'm not looking for an ammo which will do the most damage.

My concern is purely overpenetration. I spend my time mostly in urban areas with lots of people around, and I live in an apartment building. Would I ever be in the unlikely and tragic position of having to use my weapon, I want it to have a round in it that will exhaust most of it's enegry when it hits an object, and not pass through two walls and a neighbor after that.
 
In this instance, I believe the Polycase ammunition that uses a copper and polymer bullet would be a top choice. They have a lower penetration than 9mm fmj does and they are a frangible bullet, so they will shatter if they hit something hard enough, thus they won't go through it.

They also have less recoil because the bullets weigh much less than normal. They lead free, so there's no way a law against use of lead ammunition will make them illegal or something.

I've been pretty supportive of this ammunition the past few weeks because in .380 I believe it is all around the best choice for self defense. In 9mm we in the US and other parts of the world have better choices than the 9mm Polycase ammo, but that doesn't mean it's ineffective. In fact, it's quite good and it is far, FAR better than FMJ.

But someone here mentioned a revolver and I would say if you can't keep a round in the chamber, you should look at getting a revolver instead and using semi or full wadcutter bullets.

EDIT: and here is a link to that Polycase ammunition. They make a round nose "practice" ammo and one with flutes cut in the nose of the bullet which is supposed to cause more damage, but because it's such a light and fast bullet, the bullet hits tissue, the bullet tumbles and the flutes in the nose don't do anything, but it causes a lot more damage than a standard FMJ bullet does. Thus, I think the "practice" ammo that Polycase makes will work just as well for defense as the actual defense ammunition with the flutes does.
 
My concern is purely overpenetration. I spend my time mostly in urban areas with lots of people around, and I live in an apartment building. Would I ever be in the unlikely and tragic position of having to use my weapon, I want it to have a round in it that will exhaust most of it's enegry when it hits an object, and not pass through two walls and a neighbor after that.
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My concern is getting hits.
A miss is going do a lot more damage than a shoot through.

But since you are worried about "overpenetration", if you cannot get any of the trick bullets mentioned here, look for light weight and high velocity.
 
For all self-defense work, I prefer RPG's. But they're hard to conceal for urban outings, and they take too long to bring to battery. They're accuracy is substandard.

When I lose my sense of humor, the world will become too harsh for me.

Here's the honest truth: I've carried 230 grain ball ammo in a 1911-A1 and have never felt the least bit vulnerable.

The first rule of ammo is penetration.
 
Hi, thanks for raising an interesting issue. I would advise some caution here. The problem may not go away just by selecting an ammo which you think is legal, but how a public prosecutor will interpret that choice. This, no matter how well you mean, will be the critical factor the day you will shoot in defense, or a policeman will inspect your weapon.

From a quick check of the Estonian weapons act, article 20 (4) 5), the use of pistol or revolver cartridges with a hollow-pointed bullet is prohibited for civilian purposes. It may be that the Estonian original text is more specific - I tried to run the corresponding text in an automatic translator and it did not really work. I see in other parts of the law that for example chemical or amour-piercing are defined in more technical detail.

What I would be careful here is to assume that the definition of 'hollow point' in the Estonian weapons act is the same as commonly understood by people with a good familiarity with weapons and ammunition.

For example, the Fiocchi Black Mamba you mention, although fully jacketed, have a concave tip. This will show even to the untrained eye of a traffic policeman...

As an educated guess based on some familiarity with European legal systems, my guess it that the law just echoes a very traditional -and surely outdated- approach, based on the prohibition of 'dum-dum' military ammo in the Geneva convention. If so, then any kind of expanding bullet (for example any bullet in which lead shows in the front - you were considering SP) is likely to be considered prohibited.

I am also assuming that there will not be a lot of case law on the issue, as the number of firearms court cases in Europe is negligible compared to the US. So, going to court could become a very unpredictable business...

First thing to do is probably just ask the public authority in charge of issuing permits for a clarification in writing. The downside of it is, obviously, that whatever they reply, you'll need to stick to. Even if they advise to use military grade ammo...

In summary, my advice is to keep a legal eye on your choice of ammo, not just the technical one. Or just stick to FMJ if still in doubt - I am sure many on this forum will know better, but I would consider subsonic loads: they have smaller V0 and will lose energy at a quicker rate over distance traveled past defensive range; or consider that a .380 FMJ will have less penetration than 9para.
 
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Bullets likely to stop an attacker will penetrate several layers of drywall. So, train a lot so you miss less! If over penetration or missed shots is of more concerned than ability to stop an attacker quickly and reliably, maybe a Glaser safety slug would be appropriate.
 
I would suggest either a wad-cutter or semi-wad cutter if they feed you will have a solid flat piece of lead hitting your target.
 
My concern is purely overpenetration. I spend my time mostly in urban areas with lots of people around, and I live in an apartment building. Would I ever be in the unlikely and tragic position of having to use my weapon, I want it to have a round in it that will exhaust most of it's enegry when it hits an object, and not pass through two walls and a neighbor after that.
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I have long believed that in the days before development of modern hollow point ammo, the situation you describe is why the .380 or 9mm Kurz was so popular for so long in Europe. The common 9mm military caliber would overpenetrate but in a military engagement that was not really a disadvantage. For civilian use in an urban setting the .380 fmj would get adequate penetration but if it did overpenetrate much of its energy was spent, certainly in comparison to the more powerful 9mm parabellum. Of course, most of those .380s probably had barrels in the 3.2 to 3.6 inch range rather than today’s common 2.75 inch pocket pistols. Maybe something like a Beretta 84 with .380 fmj is what you might look at. Or, a Makarov if any are around and can be legally purchased.
 
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People were killing people with hand guns long before the hollow point was invented. It's accuracy and where you hit that's important.
 
Torre, welcome to The Firing Line. You are off to a good start in getting us talking.

Naturally any advice from us here in the US of A has to be considered in terms of what you can actually buy, there in Estonia. The latest copper-polymer bullets, which now are available here from several makers (Ruger!) may not be available to you just because nobody sells them in your shops.

OldScout, you confuse "self-defense killing" with "self-defense stopping". The second is a legally acceptable concept, the first might be shortened to "murder". The person being attacked shoots to stop the attack, not to purposely kill. And what good does a fatal shot do if the attacker has strength to keep on attacking for a few more moments? The fast stopping of the attack is the most important goal with self-defense firearms.

So all rounds should be evaluated in terms of a quick stop to the attack.

Bart Noir
 
Based on all of your criteria, I’d carry a 3-4” S&W 64 .38 Special with standard velocity semi wad cutters and call it a day.

I’d rather have that first shot capability over an empty chamber auto.
 
I think if you are carrying the firearm for defense, it needs to ready for use and that means a revolver if you can't legally carry a semi with a round in the chamber. A .38 Special with semi or full wadcutters would be my choice if you can't have hollow points.

Your G17 would make a fine home defense firearm but it's kinda big to carry concealed and it's a disadvantage if you can't carry the G17 with a round in the chamber. If you are going to use the G17 for home defense, I'd try a variety of ammunition that is legal where you live to find the most reliable that hits close to the point of aim at distances you have in your house. If you can get some expanding ammunition, that would be a bonus but reliability and being able to hit what you shoot at are more important.
 
I’m not going to argue that carrying a Glock with an empty chamber is the best choice, however should you consider that, training in using the so-called “Israeli Method” or “Israeli Carry” which the IDF used at one time to deal with relatively untrained troops and a variety of different handguns with different manual of arms can be surprisingly fast and effective with practice.
 
Laz, that method is not so fast if you only have one functioning hand. And since you cannot define all the bad things going on at the moment when you really truly need to draw and fire, you have to prepare for the worst. You know, when you find yourself meeting not only Murphy but Murphy's three ugly kids.

So can you draw and fire while the support hand is inoperative due to a broken bone, or the attacker's first shot, or is held tightly by one of the assailants, or is held tightly by a panicked 10-year old, or is pushing that 10-year old to cover?

If you train and equip for the answer of "no" then you end up trained and equipped for only the best of the worst possible events.

Bart Noir
 
Torre, I have been impressed with the Windicator revolvers although I have not owned or fired one. They just seemed solid and well made but, as the saying goes about so much being sold anywhere: “It all looks great in the showroom.”.

They are made in Germany, I think. That might make them cost less to you than something imported from North or South America.

I think they are rated for .357 Magnum which would allow the use of powerful .38 +P rounds.

Bart Noir
 
Bart Noir - You are correct, of course, but I’m not advocating “Israeli Carry”, merely pointing it out as an option. I would hope and am sure the OP will research whatever his solution is and make an informed decision.
 
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