Defensive Bolt Gun?

Model12Win

Moderator
Anyone rock a defensive bolt action rifle, one you use for personal or home protection? I see the .223 ARs are hot for HD work. Why not something like a Mossberg MVP in .223 with a red dot or something? Or heck, what about an old milsurp bolt gun to through in the truck in case of 2-legged varmints?

Thoughts?
 
This isn't World War I, anything I'd remotely consider for fighting or defense will be a semi auto. There is a reason police aren't carrying single action revolvers.


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If all I had were bolt guns I would happily keep one between my bed and night stand. Of course semi auto and pump shotguns have an advantage but hey, use what you got.

I can say if I had to pick one gun to survive with in a variety of circumstances my CZ 527 in 7.62x39 would get some strong consideration.
 
I'd pick a pump Remington 760 over any bolt gun for defensive use. Even a lever action Marlin or Browning over a bolt gun.

Deaf
 
Rifle use for protection in this home. Oh heck no. As I was instructed "always be aware of your bullets back-drop {before} squeezing the trigger.

Just saying:
Neighbor homes are all Frame built and contain small children that are situated to close too this home to allow for any center fire rifle or BIG bore magnum pistol cartridge use. Such weaponry used to stop a felonious home invasion may have me facing a Judge too.

Without hesitation my legally shortened 870 12 ga 3" w/# 4 buck will quickly decide "who's the prey and who is the predator" _ in this castle cousins.
 
Not for me.
It's either an Auto Shotgun, high capacity Semi Auto Sig or a Semi Auto rifle.

I see too many issues with a bolt gun, primarily the ability of the bad guy to have a second to grab it while you cycle the bolt.
 
I wouldn't feel terrible with this baby, CZ 527M/CSR in 7.62x39mm, ten round primary magazine, 5 round insta-spare in the stock. Beats harsh language hands down.


https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=105513&stc=1&d=1501305226

Edit to add - wouldn't a lever carbine be a better choice for in home defense, IF you are restricted from semi auto? I love my little bolt action carbine, but it's primary envisioned use is the Camp/Scout Rifle.
 

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I take an old Czech Mauser with me on camping excursions for comfort and protection from the local wildlife (and locals if need be.) However, for home defense I think a bolt action would be slow, unwieldy, overpowered and over penetrating, needlessly limiting, and in general a dumb idea. No offense.

As for my reasoning for taking the Mauser with me - It is an old counter bored beater, is powerful enough to ruin pretty much anything's day, and it's what I have.
 
Maybe for outdoor defense. A scout rifle might be cool.

The problem is that the rate of fire is too slow and the action is too clumsy for indoor defense. You may only have time for the first shot or fumble the action. A full powered rifle cartridge is likely a little excessive for use indoors, although lower powered calibers are available.

Milsurp bolters are too expensive for a truck gun. There's no cheap ones anymore.

Mosins are what, pushing $300 or so these days? A decent pump can be had for $200, or an AR for $400.
 
I see too many issues with a bolt gun, primarily the ability of the bad guy to have a second to grab it while you cycle the bolt.

I wouldn't put that particular issue all that high on my list of issues with a bolt action or any long gun.

But then, I look at things a little differently than most people. Sure, the only thing slower to fire a SECOND shot than a bolt action is a single shot, but there is more to defense than just shooting.

If your attacker is in gun grabbing range, and you're holding a 7lb CLUB, it might be more prudent to hit them with it! The art of Fighting with the rifle (which a much more than just shooting it) is nearly a lost art today. Not much shown in action movies, and not taught much in the military anymore, but a rifle has two ends, and BOTH of them are effective impact weapons.

I'm not saying you should yell "FIX BayoNETS!!! CHARGE!!!!" (in a British accent) and, if you are under attack, and have the time to fix your bayonet, you should probably just shoot the bugger...

But, don't overlook the fact that if you are using a rifle (and in my opinion, the only reason for using a rifle inside the house is that it's the only weapon available), you are holding a steel pipe with a club on the other end. A well delivered swat of jab could give you the time needed to be able to chamber another round. There's a REASON those milsurp Mausers, SMLEs, Moisins, etc are built the way they are, they are meant for fighting as well as shooting.

At grapple distance, getting your attacker in front of the muzzle might be difficult, so do something else. ANYTHING you have to do. Buttstroking HURTS, can break bones, and even kill. And your target is more than just vital areas. For instance, if the bad guy grabs the muzzle end of your rifle, the natural reaction is to try and wrestle back control of the muzzle. Consider instead, using the other end, and delivering a blow to a different part of your attacker. He's going to be trying hard to keep the muzzle away from his body, and may not realize anything more than that is needed.

A jab from a rifle butt can knock loose a kneecap, and no one fights well on just one leg (and it hurts like hell) A jab in the ribs is a decent "distractor" as well. If you're in a tug o war with the rifle, USE that to your advantage.

(think about these things beforehand,)

and another thing to think about, something that movies and TV simply never show with any realistic aspect is the concussive effect of discharging a rifle inside a closed room. Firing something that burns 40-50gr of powder (like the typical milsurp bolt action), in a closed room is an experience that has to be experienced to be believed. Not quite the same as a flash bang grenade, but close, particularly to those who have never experienced it, or don't expect it. (and that includes YOU when you pull the trigger!!!)

No, a bolt action rifle wouldn't be my first choice for home defense. Nor would ANY rifle, even carbines. But if it was all I had, I'd use it, and any and every other thing I could think of.
 
If all I had was a bolt action rifle I'd use it sure, But if I have my pick of weapons bolt gun is almost at the bottom of the list.

You don't need precision or stealth for HD, which is what I'd say a bolt guns strengths are.

My #1 pick for HD is a handgun indoors, shotgun outdoors.. rifle if you got lot of land.

If I had to pick a rifle for HD it would be a compact semi auto.. or I suppose a lever action would be ok.. but handgun would still be my weapon of choice.

But then again maybe im looking at this wrong.
Model 12 you ask if anyone is using a bolt gun but Im curious do you? would you? what makes you think it would make a good HD weapon?
 
A bolt gun wouldn't be my 1st choice, but it'd serve better than lots of folks think. If someone takes the time to actually learn how to operate one. The "scout" type bolt rifles, or hunting rifles with shorter barrels, moderate recoil and either low powered optics or iron sights would be at least as good of an option as a lever action rifle. And you see lever actions recommended a lot.

Rate of fire with a bolt gun is surprisingly fast for those who have actually practiced doing it fast. Most people with bolt guns think of them as slow to operate precision rifles. Go to you-tube sometime and watch some of the video of African guides and how fast they are able to empty the magazine when being charged by game.

It is something I've spent time working on and have gotten off 3 shots from a 308 bolt gun in 1.8 seconds. The best times with a 30-30 are 1.5 seconds. That is only 1/10 of a second per shot faster for a 30-30. At least in my hands.

But as others have said. Indoors I still prefer a handgun for up close work. An AR is my 2nd choice. I've timed myself getting off 3 shots in about 1/2 second with an AR, plus recoil and blast is a lot less.

Indoors a shotgun offers me no advantage over an AR. Not enough spread to the pattern, but I get 6X the recoil with 1/6 the ammo capacity. I keep a shotgun at the ready. It could be useful outdoors at ranges from 20-50 yards where buckshot patterns could be useful in hitting moving targets.
 
This isn't World War I, anything I'd remotely consider for fighting or defense will be a semi auto. There is a reason police aren't carrying single action revolvers.

Nor WW2 either, and there's a reason the U.S. won that war using a semi-automatic 8-shot rifle when our allies and enemies were all still rocking (mostly) 5-shot bolt trash.

Yeah, the Brits had 10-rd mags on their L.E. .303 rifles, but our M1 Garands were still quicker.
 
If need be, a bolt action can be used in home defense... but the bigger question is why?

Shooting a .223 inside a home isn't fun, noise as well as ballistics. Shooting a bolt action under stress isn't fun either. Don't know why you'd want to combine the two.

I personally don't suggest 5.56mm ARs for home defense. Jurisdictions are different across the country, but having the capability to shoot 200+ yards in a home defense situation is a little extreme within even larger homes (shooting someone at 100+ yards, in most situations, takes self defense out of the cards). At the most, I could do a 25 yard shot... sitting in my bathtub, and the target against the fireplace wall, which is very uncommon for someone to be that far back (starting at the door of the bathroom, which the bedrooms intersect with, kitchen outlet is about 18 yards, and furthest door, for laundry room, is about 15 yards). Realistically, the furthest shot is about 15 to 20 yards.

If someone wants to go with a carbine, a pistol caliber AR would be a better choice for most situations. If you don't want a semi-auto, lever actions in a pistol caliber would be my next suggestion. Hell, they even do bolt actions in pistol calibers. The only way I'd suggest a heavier caliber bolt action rifle as a defensive weapon would be if that is all you had... and even then, how is it setup? Iron sights are going to be hard to use at night, and if you are tossing a light on, why not invest in something better? If it is a scoped rifle, absolutely not. Red-dot would work... but again, if you're putting a red-dot on, set the money aside and get a better firearm for the job.
 
It depends on whether you want precision rifle fire or spray and pray.

If you want to just dump ammo in the direction of the wood line, the bolt gun can't compete.

But if you know how tho shoot a bolt gun, and are desiring precision fire you will not be under gunned with the proper bolt gun.

I shoot both in competition. For example I shoot the Garand Match and Springfield Match in CMP GSM Games.

I can shoot the Springfield better and just as fast. By fast I dont mean just pulling the trigger, I mean accurately. But you have to learn to shoot a bolt gun. The butt stock should never be taken out of your shoulder except to reload.

Both guns recoil and have to fall back to your natural point of aim for the next shot. In a rifle action as smooth as the Springfield, the bolt is re-cycled during that recoil and you're ready to fire the next shot as you fall back to you natural point of aim.

A good place to see this in action is to shoot a Infantry Trophy Match (Rattle Battle) with both. In this match, you start out at 600 yards, and have 55 seconds to fire as many shots as possible at an E Target. This 19X40 inch target at 600 yards, using iron sights is not real big in reference to the front sight. If one knows how to work a bolt gun, he is not disadvantaged with a bolt gun.

Nor does it take any longer to load a bolt gun with 5 round stripper clips then it does to load the Garand E Clips.

Yes cops no longer use revolvers (much). But if you were to check the Hits vs Misses between LE engagements with revolvers vs today's semis, you'll see a big difference.

I carried a revolver in my 20 year LE career and I never felt under gunned. I can still shoot my revolvers better then my semis. Yeah its a bit slower to reload, but I dont miss as much with the revolver either, and in LE misses are a big deal, because those rounds go somewhere.

There was a time, where I found the semi or full auto was better then bolt guns, but that was in the jungle where you often couldnt see who you were shooting at, and fire superiority ruled the day. But then I didnt care where my missed rounds went.
 
The straight pull British and American rifles of WWI to WWII design are faston repeat shots. However the clip reloading takes the gun away from thee shoulder and only holds a few rounds.
The Springfield designed swept back bolt handle is not quite as fast, but you can shoot it quite rapidly. Clip loading and few rounds slow it way down, and you will get very tired and sore shoulder and hands after a hundred rounds from the cycling.
As per home defense, in modern day, there are two or three designs of short Remington rifle designs with magazines in 5.56 and .308. as well as others.
I can't really imagin classifying them as fast cycling. My Remington 600 .308 weighs little more if any than my Ruger .44 Mag ,with its current stock. Not any problem with reocoil etc but enough that keeping rifle on the target and fast cycling the bolt, welll...
 
I was in a thread that involved a guy who was buying nagants by the dozen for apocalypse defense. Yes, he was stockpiling dozens of bolt action rifles for use against well armed marauders, who would almost certainly be using better weapons, either purchased or stolen.

Want an example of what it will be like? Look at the Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia,well armed marauders drift into town and save lots of ammo by using machetes.

I thought that stockpiling nagant rifles and truckloads of ammo for them for the apocalypse was ridiculous, downright stupid, but I was polite and didn't say so.

It's not stupid to have bolts in your armory. Jeff Cooper, one of the best, created the scout rifle. It certainly had its place.
 
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