Defending Against Gang Attack

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As a future prosecutor, I would like to see a law that gives every aggressor participant of a multiple party attack (2 or more v. 1) get a mandatory minimum of 25 years...regardless of the degree of injury to the victim. Please add your thought on that along with your commentary of defending against the gang attack.
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Excellent idea. The great state of TX could make something like that happen too.
 
I've seen a few gang attacks. After living in Jersey, and in Camden (rated nations highest crime rated city in america) I've seen it all pretty much.

My advice is, do your best to stay alive. Assume they all have guns. I would dubble tap if at all possible, as fast as you can on each target, as long as they arn't running away. Seek cover is possible, reload and hope for the best again.

Often if you pull out your gun, you have to keep your eyes on the guy behind you. So moving quickly around in a circle will split up the group (which I've seen done) or bring them in closer which I've seen them do. My guess is depending on how thuggish they are, they wont back off unless a shot is fired.

So pretty much, shoot one guy, the thugs will back up a bit, you gain exit and you then have them all infront of you.

I hope I'll never have to deal with this. I've seen some of the stuff that can happen and its pretty grim.
 
Hallucinator said:
From my understanding, most gang attacks are directed toward members of rival gangs.
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For the most part, you are correct. And even that is largely misunderstood. For example, I think bike clubs go out of their way to suppress loyalty (and the effects of liquor) at places like Sturgis. After all, you're there to party, meet old friends and look at the pretty girls. And turf wars are a drag.

Having said that, I don't lose a lot of sleep worrying about a full frontal attack by the Crips. In reality, that style of crime is black on black. The Mob pretty much stays to themselves. I can't remember the last time I got crap from a Cub Scout.

What I do fear is "wilding." That is, thrill killing. You could be buying a newspaper one minute, and the next moment get caught up in a whirlwind of fists and boots.

In that kind of scenario, I think you might try to fire your pistol empty into the gang (so it cannot be used against you later) and hope you can take the survivors.

Modern life, yikes, I can't stand it. One hundred and fifty channels, nuttin' on.
 
While I don't advocate bringing a knife to a gun fight, a knife is dangerous in a arc versus a vector. With some good escrima training, knives in close quarters could be highly effective. Knives are often highly itimidating and a few slashes may be enough to deter the attackers without taking a life. Just a thought... :o

I would like to believe that any DA in their right mind would not prosecute someone for defending themself against some gang thugs, but if no weapons are shown, what is the "legality" of shooting people for harassing you (up until the point they are on top of you and intiate the attack)?
 
stephen426 said:
bringing a knife to a gun fight
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If I do nothing else in this forum it will be to show how outmoded and incorrect this 'old joke' has become.

Now, an untrained teenager with his mom's steak knife may not be a credible threat, I admit that. However, the people and ideas we discuss here usually focus on adult situations and fairly effective tools.

And that's my concern here. Trust me, at contact distances, you'd better be able to draw like Wyatt Earp or 'speed rock' like Rob Leatham.

I play with knives all day long. All kinds of knives, even upper end kitchenware. And let's not forget, new knives are made from some pretty fancy-schmancy alloys. Even The Bass Pro Shops offer a new proprietary run of the classic Buck 110, made from 154-CM.

And as you go for that hawg-leg, remember that a firearm does not increase your reaction time, your strength, your tenacity, or your skill.

You make one sloppy amateurish move, and I'll latch onto you by your dojo belt and hack you up like a Christmas goose. And remember, personally, I'm not that good. Imagine yourself at the mercy of someone who is...

Thus endth that lesson.

what is the "legality" of shooting people for harassing you
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Frankly, this is going to be a concern for any confrontation with any weapon. In that regard, be sure and read Ayoob's column "Win On The Street, Win In Court," even if you do so only periodically. Lots of good info, and the great thing is that this isthe documentation of real confrontations.
 
HMMM.

Well, I have to face these issues tomorrow. I'm going into an area to teach I'm not real jazzed about.

My solutions, legal ones at this point, are directional pepper spray, being on alert, and staying out of bad situations. Haven't decided on carrying yet.

This area has been known for groups of kids, read gangs, up to 75 in number, getting together in a parking lot.

I've also had the delight of calling the police when two grandmothers punched each other at a youth basketball game, at this same high school, 5th graders playing, and, the two families squared off, swearing, and making threats.

I have for this situation, now a video capable cell phone, as well. This has been very effective in stopping violence between students. Guess they don't want to end up on youtube.com.;)

This campus is known for violence, since it's huge, and, poorly patroled.

I've been trained in many forms of martial arts, and, for multiple targets here's what I'd suggest. Monkey works very well, as does Wing Chun. Southern Chinese styles are designed for small folks, often fights taking place on boats, etc. that require maintaining balance. Keep both feet on the ground, using short, percise strikes to vital areas. Monkey moves the body from high to low, giving a very difficult target to hit, while striking at the same time.

Northern styles tend to be for bigger people, in more open spaces, so, for multiple attackers they may work, if the situation is in an open area, but, they tend to teach too many kicks, and, as others have mentioned, getting your feet off the ground is not a good thing in such situations.

I suppose the real answer to this is one most are not going to be able to do, or have the will to do. You need to stay in shape, and practice on a somewhat daily basis, at least 3 times a week.

The hitting the heavy bag advice is good, but, slightly misses the point. The key to speed, and success in martial arts, or boxing, is to accept that you may die, and, from this, comes the freedom from fear that creates tightness, and slows you down. Boxing is excellent training. Learning to relax while someone good is trying to rip your head off, and hurt you, is a difficult lesson to learn. It's not much of an extension to carry this to a real fight situation, and, I've had to do it a couple times.

Moving very fast, not allowing the bad guys a rigid, easy to hit target, and, striking as fast, and to fatal or severe points are all keys to surviving this kind of attack.

I guess I'm going to have to get back in the gym, and, I don't mean just lifting weights..;.

S esq.
 
As a future prosecutor, I would like to see a law that gives every aggressor participant of a multiple party attack (2 or more v. 1) get a mandatory minimum of 25 years...regardless of the degree of injury to the victim. Please add your thought on that along with your commentary of defending against the gang attack.
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I'll back you up on that one. I'd also add "regardless of their particular degree of participation". The mindset is the same. Just because they only kicked a victim once when their buddy kicked them six times doesn't mean they were more sympathetic, and in their mentality, they'll be planning on getting more kicks in next time.
HMMMM....Mr. Prosecutor, AKA SatanzBountyhunter...do you have any objection to this motion?:D Seriously, It's nice to think that a PA might be on our side for once.:) I suppose in court you'll be using a name more like Earnest Gibbinholtz or something:D
 
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Federal prosecutors are already using the RICO statutes to go after gangs. One prosecutor I've met, and, worked with in another field, has filed against a San Francisco gang with 28 members, and, he went after all of them.

He was also the guy that won the medical marijuana case in S.F.
 
Something that tells me spraying peppers at a Hispanic gang is like trying to fend off bears with tuna sandwiches. I prefer to consult John Moses Browning, John Marlin, and Eugene Stoner for such solutions.
 
A gang attack

sounds scary and I hope I will never face one. I have a bad back and will not go physical, unless I have to. Luckily Florida is one of those states where you don't have to run from a threat; it's legal to shoot any severe threat, including a threat to a third person, without warning the attacker first. Draw your gun early and seek cover. If they don't escape they mean business. Shoot to kill. Get your spare ammo out and running. The noise will attract the cops. If surrounded, keep turning while you grab your gun so they can't see clearly what is going on with you. If left without a gun, kick the balls of the leader. The leader is the head of the snake. The rest is just a bunch of cowards. A fierce attack is your best bet; criminals want easy victims. Hard kicks to the knees are very efficient. Break fingers as soon you get hold of a hand. Move away, don't allow them to hoard up on you, keep moving. Bite as hard as you can. Keep moving.

I like Oregon and Washington, but from what I understand, their self defense laws are for the safety of their criminals. I will not move to a state which does not allow me to pop *******s on sight. Florida is a good state. Florida looks after its people. Low taxes too.
 
If left without a gun, kick the balls of the leader. The leader is the head of the snake. The rest is just a bunch of cowards.
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I've seen a lot of gangs of which the cowards try to take over. Just my own personal experince I know to think everyone is the leader. One just speaks out for the rest of them, it's rude to talk while others are talking too.

Regardless if in that situation..do what you can to stay alive. Its ok to go for the balls, bite, slap, scratch..your buddies wont be there so you can beef up the story a bit ;):cool:
 
Socrates said:
I guess I'm going to have to get back in the gym, and, I don't mean just lifting weights..;.
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Not to hijack this thread, but I've started on that idea.

I was always a weights/Stairmaster kind of guy. Served me well.

Then about one year ago, I saw some advertising on our local TV for a 'conditioning' gym. Lots of guys doing some bizarre stuff. I ignored it.

But I did catch snippets of the training used by the actors getting ready to film "300." Same stuff, lots of conditioning.

But I had heard of a strange training concept called "The Weider Muscle Confusion Technique." Some weight lifters fall into a routine and stop making gains. A dramatic change-up in technique, intensity and routine seemed to pay benefits.

Last month I found a guy in our gym who was willing to be my lifting partner as we experimented with technique.

One day we raced from machine to machine. One day I picked the routine and he kept guessing. One day we stretched after an intense work-out on machines we had never used. I think next week we'll jog, then lift and top it off with a swim.

I know one thing, I have that old 'fire in the belly' to get to the gym once again. My bi's and tri's are thicker. Last week they lowered 300 pounds down onto my chest, and I slowly contained the weight as it came to rest softly on the rubber.

We talk here a lot about preparedness, and I think we mean mental acuity.

I believe active conditioning should be a part of our defensive strategy.
 
HMMMM....Mr. Prosecutor, AKA SatanzBountyhunter...do you have any objection to this motion? Seriously, It's nice to think that a PA might be on our side for once. I suppose in court you'll be using a name more like Earnest Gibbinholtz or something
Click to expand...

This future Prosecutor spent 15 years as an LEO protecting the good, always encouraging firearm ownership and training for those good people and putting the hurt on the bad guys. I think being a prosecutor is a good position for making sure that those good people that defend themselves and others from society's worst aren't hassled by our judicial system. As for the SBH handle...did you see 'Ghost Rider' where he confronts the bad guys and sends them 'back to Hell' where they belong? Warms my heart.
 
SBH/\ Of course you know I was just razzin' you - no offense. Plenty of respect here. Hope there's no hard feelings.
 
SBH/\ Of course you know I was just razzin' you - no offense. Plenty of respect here. Hope there's no hard feelings.
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No offense taken...thought that was funny actually. But where in the world did you come up with 'Earnest Gibbenholtz'? Oliver Closeoff is a much better name. LOL.
 
Hallucinator said:
I hope that one day they'll change laws so that we can protect ourselves with firearms when faced with multiple attackers. I'm sixty four and will obviously not excel in martial arts against multiple attackers. But at present, the law won't let me use a gun to protect myself, even though the punks could very easily kill me with hands and feet.
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This is really not an accurate understanding of the law as it applies to deadly force.

If a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what you knew at the time, would believe that you were in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious injury, you would be legally justified in using deadly force to defend yourself. An attack by multiple assailants would generally fit those requirements, especially if the intended victim were a senior citizen. (This is true because of a legal principle called "disparity of force.")

See www.useofforce.us , or www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx and www.corneredcat.com/Legal/myths.aspx , or pick up a copy of Massad Ayoob's book In the Gravest Extreme, for more details.

sw florida said:
I like Oregon and Washington, but from what I understand, their self defense laws are for the safety of their criminals. I will not move to a state which does not allow me to pop *******s on sight.
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Again, legal misunderstandings here.

Washington and Oregon both have "castle doctrine" laws. Washington has never had "duty to retreat" language in the law, and thus Washington had no need to erase the previously bad law as Florida had to with its "stand your ground" law. Washington has had legal shall-issue carry permits for decades longer than Florida. In Washington, if you use deadly force and are found justified in a court of law, the state will pay all costs associated with your trial.

But none of that really matters. The important thing is that in NO state of the union -- not even Florida -- is it legal to "pop *******s on sight." Your license to carry a concealed weapon is not a hunting license for *******s.

It is, however, legal to defend yourself against a reasonably-perceived deadly threat, in Florida and in every other state of the union. A concealed carry permit merely enables you to have the tools on hand if you need to defend yourself against an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.

If you use deadly force in defense of your own life, do not expect the cops to show up, say, "Ahh, a legally-justified good shooting, you have a nice day now," and send you on your way. Even in Florida, it does not quite work that way. Cynical and suspicious cops will investigate the scene and interrogate the witnesses, and if there's a whiff of doubt about why you did what you did, you may very well find yourself in a court of law defending your actions.

See the links above for more information -- especially this link on the Cornered Cat.

pax
 
Correction

I know one can't pop *******s on sight. But sometimes I have the feeling that it will become the law in the future. Tomorrow never knows.
 
I forgot

to tell you about putting a key so that it sticks out between your knuckles. Stab at their eyes with the tip of the key. Stab to blind permanently. Hard sideways stomps at knees are good too, or single toe kicks to their knee caps. The key punched to their ribs hurts as hell. But the eyes are the best.

Everything is so much easier when you have a gun in your hand. What good does it do in your drawer at home?
 
The demographics of concealed carry, at least in my state, are mostly either old geezers, or geezers in training.

We aren't 'fit', or skilled in martial arts. Neither do we leap tall buildings at a single bound. Nor are we bullet proof. Can't fight effectively, too slow or stupid to run, so the 'best' solution is to avoid situtations where we need to do either.

Barring that, the only option is to capitulate or fight as best as we can.

If, for whatever reason, the decision to fight is forced upon me, I'd be inclined to shoot 'till slide lock, reload, and shoot some more.

As to the aftermath, there SHOULD be a reckoning of some sort.

Hopefully, it would not be politically motivated.

salty.
 
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