Defend a stranger?
- Thread starter JonnyP
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The Tourist
Moderator
rgates said:
And our reponse(s) should be well thought out and prudent. Many times a foolish first responder dies the same fate as the person he was trying to save.
Pragmatically, every bullet launched cannot be recalled.
My concern is did the guy coming in to save the day choose the right guy to shoot, or was he just trying to be a hero? Seldom have I seen a singular guy standing out in a crowd with the words "bad guy" tattooed on his forehead.
If some putz shot one of my friends I would make sure that the law hunted him down, prosecuted him fully, broke him financially and locked him away for a very long time. We ain't living inside a Terminator movie.
No, you don't.
Can you look at your face in the mirror every morning for the rest of your life knowing you had, on your person, the means to prevent a murder and didn't?
I tend to agree, but it might also be pointed out that Bubba Two Strikes might figure, after murdering the clerk, that leaving a witness--YOU!--isn't in his best interest.
As Farnum would say, and often does, don't dither. Nnobby45 -
I'd add that if Bubba Two Strikes has a chance to take out the witnesses and the cameras, it is in his best interest. Yes, the police might catch him, and yes they might actually have some evidence he did it, but life is not CSI. If the prosecutor has to go forward on a felony murder case with only LEO testimony, the jury will expect CSI. And when they're disappointed...well, I wouldn't guess that Bubba will walk, but I would guess he won't be nearly as sorry as The Tourist would hope he'd be. I'm not saying we ought to be vigilante's tracking down the wretched scum and villains around us, but you should ask yourself, now, what you are willing to do if you are armed and on scene when Bubba walks into that 7-11.
I'd add that if Bubba Two Strikes has a chance to take out the witnesses and the cameras, it is in his best interest. Yes, the police might catch him, and yes they might actually have some evidence he did it, but life is not CSI. If the prosecutor has to go forward on a felony murder case with only LEO testimony, the jury will expect CSI. And when they're disappointed...well, I wouldn't guess that Bubba will walk, but I would guess he won't be nearly as sorry as The Tourist would hope he'd be. I'm not saying we ought to be vigilante's tracking down the wretched scum and villains around us, but you should ask yourself, now, what you are willing to do if you are armed and on scene when Bubba walks into that 7-11.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
bblatt11 said:
There's a long, long distance between "hiding" or being "unprepared to help a stranger" and getting myself killed for someone. You keep ignoring the moral obligations that I have to my own family and concentrating on my moral obligations that I supposedly have to, basically, you. This "stranger" is you, and every one else that I don't know.
Why is my obligation to you stronger than my obligation to my wife and children?
We can rationalize the heroism involved in saving someone else, but it doesn't explain why it should be seen as superior to the moral obligation that I made to my family.
bblatt11 said:
Now, this scenario of a convenience store robbery is a poor example in my opinion. For several reasons. First, if it's a simple robbery then you'd be a fool to start shooting. Second, if there's only one clerk and the BG has already shot them and you are not in immediate jeopardy then you are likely to be better off to let them run and help the clerk. (What's the goal?) Third, if bullets are flying and you ARE in immediate jeopardy then you'd be a fool to not respond with force. This scenario really gives us very little option.
In fact, I would submit that MOST scenarios give us very few logical options. Whether it be a mugging or an armed robbery in a store, the employment of lethal force is likely to delay rather than expedite the arrival of assistance to the injured. The only real scenarios that would justify the immediate employment of lethal force wherein you are not already directly involved are likely to be active shooter scenarios. I am not equipped or trained to insert myself into an active shooter scenario. I will not get myself killed for no reason. Poking my head into these types of situations, unprepared and ill-equipped, just so I can get shot and be a hero is NOT what moral obligations are all about.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Everyone is so absolutist with a scenario they think they can win.
OK, you are outside the mall with wife and kids. A truck stops and unloads 15 clearly identifiable terrorists with fully auto long arms and what looks like body armor.
They run to the entrance and on the way, they shoot a mommy and baby.
You have a pistol. Do you charge after them? You may save some but the odds are clearly against you. Your kid and wife might be caught up. BTW. A version of this did happen in law enforcement and the officer's little girl was killed when left unprotected as Dad entered the fray.
My point is that the action has many factors going into it and we are huffing and puffing when we think we can win. So who is ready for the suicide charge and loss of family.
Note, soldiers do this as they are concerned with survival of their close unit and that's the motivation. Do you do this for the mall patrons?
Would you charge Godzilla with a J frame? Also could you look yourself in the mirror? Well, military and law deal with this quite a bit and we have therapies that work - if you are alive. Is it righteous for an LEO to quite the department or someone to retire from the military as they are scared of the risk?
It is too easy to moralize on someone saving themselves for their family or themself.
OK, you are outside the mall with wife and kids. A truck stops and unloads 15 clearly identifiable terrorists with fully auto long arms and what looks like body armor.
They run to the entrance and on the way, they shoot a mommy and baby.
You have a pistol. Do you charge after them? You may save some but the odds are clearly against you. Your kid and wife might be caught up. BTW. A version of this did happen in law enforcement and the officer's little girl was killed when left unprotected as Dad entered the fray.
My point is that the action has many factors going into it and we are huffing and puffing when we think we can win. So who is ready for the suicide charge and loss of family.
Note, soldiers do this as they are concerned with survival of their close unit and that's the motivation. Do you do this for the mall patrons?
Would you charge Godzilla with a J frame? Also could you look yourself in the mirror? Well, military and law deal with this quite a bit and we have therapies that work - if you are alive. Is it righteous for an LEO to quite the department or someone to retire from the military as they are scared of the risk?
It is too easy to moralize on someone saving themselves for their family or themself.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Well put, Glenn.
What happens to that moral imperative when we know we will lose the fight?
Interesting.
What happens to that moral imperative when we know we will lose the fight?
Interesting.
The Tourist
Moderator
This is one of the reasons why I dislike these "what if" debates. The odds of a platoon of trained mercs robbing a Pottery Barn is quite slim.
We need answers to real dilemmas, and the idea of moral implications is a very needed aspect in deciding actions.
But carrying a .458 to the mall just in case you meet a bull elephant in rut seems like an odd addition to a debate.
You can not win. By the Western military code when there is absolutely no chance of survival you are allowed to surrender. But terrorists are not interested in your surrender.
Happens every day. Just that not all people are in touch with their feelings in that way. Some kid themselves and then when the scary noises start they freeze up with inaction. This is problematic when you are trying to get things done.
That is why these little scenarios are annoying. There are a million things you need to know by being there that a 10,000 word post won't convey. Once you know what you need to know you either decide whether it is worth it or you just do it automatically.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
MTT TL said:
I'm not in the military. Western or otherwise, and it's not a war.
Do you sacrifice your life to defend strangers, as a moral imperative, or are there other considerations?
Besides, define "chance of victory". What if you could save one person? Do you not have that moral imperative? Where is the line in the sand? Could you look yourself in the mirror if you let that one person die when you could have done something?
I will not leave my family to fend for themselves. End of Scenario. I will die for my wife and children. More importantly, I will survive for my wife and children.
My moral imperative is to take care of my own family. I will help a stranger when I can, I will give time, money, sweat and tears. I will not give my life, not while my wife and children depend on me.
If that makes me a coward, so be it. I can live with that.
I am a retired soldier and my oath to defend the country or the people didn't just leave when I retired. Would I go looking for trouble no.... If trouble finds me I would seek to retreat or leave if possible, they can have my money and my wallet but ultimately once I believe my life or that of my family to be in immediate danger I will seek to stop that danger as quickly as possible.
If I was in the store and this happened I would have to act, what that action would be would depend on the circumstances.
It could be anything from securing a area and the people in it until the danger passes or it could be something more aggressive if the situation demanded it.
What is my life compared to some young mother or kid or family? Im not some unstopable machine and I am mortal but this is my country and my people and I swore to defend it. Is it the perfect choice for everyone, no probably not, but it is my choice when given no other choice.
If I was in the store and this happened I would have to act, what that action would be would depend on the circumstances.
It could be anything from securing a area and the people in it until the danger passes or it could be something more aggressive if the situation demanded it.
What is my life compared to some young mother or kid or family? Im not some unstopable machine and I am mortal but this is my country and my people and I swore to defend it. Is it the perfect choice for everyone, no probably not, but it is my choice when given no other choice.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Mumbai was a rare event but it happened. For a long time, theorists said the USA was probably safe from home grown events like that. Then we had Ft. Hood - a single shooter. But remember the plot that was aborted and one reason is the terrorists to be couldn't figure out how to get fully auto weapons. Now, experts think it is a matter of time till we get a larger group attack. Eight guys could go to Academy here and buy ARs. Take a carbine class and be good to go or be ex-military who switched allegiances.
Most gunfight scenarios are rare.
Altruism is very complex - my point is sometimes we don't get past simple analysis.
Most gunfight scenarios are rare.
Altruism is very complex - my point is sometimes we don't get past simple analysis.
Bullets flying? Jeapordy? I've seen more than one real life video where Bubba simply raised his gun and, without any previous warning whatsoever, shot his victim. Store clerks on more than one occasion. A pregnant mother playing a slot machine in another other. No bullets flying, no warning. Just BAM as he was walking out the door. The video camera made no difference to him.
One of the best comments so far. Do we really think our real life event is going resemble anything being discussed here? Even if it does, our analytical perception in advance wouldn't resemble the actual experience. Especially with re: to what we might actually do.
Such as, well, "I'd scan real quick to see if he had an accomplis, then I'd draw my weapon and move to cover, at which point I'd yell 'freeze' and then...........
OldMarksman
Staff
From the OP:
As BGutzman put it:
Would I defend a stranger? Most probably not. The legal risks (criminal and civil) and the physical risks attendant in pulling a gun are so high that they dissuade me, and if the stranger were to end up testifying against me, he would substantiate one of the reasons for my reluctance. Of course, it's impossible to know what one will do in circumstances yet unforeseen. Now, if it is someone I know well who is in imminent danger, how could I opt otherwise?
No--assuming you are not a sworn officer.
I wouldn't try to defend him, but as others have said, what about yourself?
As BGutzman put it:
Yes, it seems to me that if a man in the room you are in is firing a gun at people, you are most likely in imminent danger. If you can draw and fire while his attention is directed elsewhere, you should have a chance.
Would I defend a stranger? Most probably not. The legal risks (criminal and civil) and the physical risks attendant in pulling a gun are so high that they dissuade me, and if the stranger were to end up testifying against me, he would substantiate one of the reasons for my reluctance. Of course, it's impossible to know what one will do in circumstances yet unforeseen. Now, if it is someone I know well who is in imminent danger, how could I opt otherwise?
kilimanjaro
New member
I guess I could stand there and ponder the fine moral points of our existence, state laws, shyster lawyers, good vs. evil, how many angels dance on a pinhead, and such things, but the reality is if I'm armed, and a witness to a vicious homicide, I'm going to draw my weapon and point it at the killer, and not long after that I'm pulling the trigger, before he does the same to me or someone else.
There's a family-owned 7-11 within walking distance to my home. Once in a while, late at night (like now) I might walk over for smokes or a carton of milk. I've thought about this more than once.
In California, of course, a CCW permit is nigh unto impossible to get in urban areas. Still there are problems.
Now... If I'm in my local 7-11 and Mr. Thug walks in and starts shooting at the clerk, my immediate reaction will be to conceal myself, draw my weapon and assess the situation. My reaction following will depend on my location, distance, presence of other innocents and what he's done/doing to the clerk.
Presuming good luck - my position is good, Mr. Thug is focused on the clerk's actions and I'm armed, Mr. Thug is likely to develop a serious case of magnum heartburn.
No, I will not attempt to "arrest" him (not my duty), nor shout for him to drop his weapon or "freeze" (Hollywood). I pray that I act swiftly and decisively enough to prevent him from causing further harm.
In all other situations it will be a case of taking the action believed to be the best at the time. For instance, if he's entered the store, pretends to be a customer and doesn't draw until at the counter, hasn't fired and there are others in the store, prudence dictates holding your fire unless you are postive you can stop him without injuring others or starting a firefight.
In the event of multiple thugs you may be forced to fight at the point of initial contact with an armed thug. Surprise and determination will be your only advantage.
Lastly, there may be circumstances that dictate that you do nothing except be a good witness and stay alive.
In California, of course, a CCW permit is nigh unto impossible to get in urban areas. Still there are problems.
- unless you are along the sides of the store, your point of aim will intersect those nice big windows out front. Anyone in the parking lot? How do you know at night?
- Are others near the counter? How many might panic and run you over as they flee?
- Watching many videos of robberies, the BGs begin wtih brutal violence in about half the cases. The remainder show typical pre-crime behaviors.
- Customers and bystanders aid the victim(s) a small percentage (<10%) of the time.
- In multiple BG robberies everyone in the store is threatened and the BGs "control" the store during the robbery.
- When it goes down, they show few, if any signs, of being deterred by cameras, customers, or alarms.
- They tend to flee when resistance is performed violently against them, with a firearm or when a large aggressive dog suddenly appears.
Now... If I'm in my local 7-11 and Mr. Thug walks in and starts shooting at the clerk, my immediate reaction will be to conceal myself, draw my weapon and assess the situation. My reaction following will depend on my location, distance, presence of other innocents and what he's done/doing to the clerk.
Presuming good luck - my position is good, Mr. Thug is focused on the clerk's actions and I'm armed, Mr. Thug is likely to develop a serious case of magnum heartburn.
No, I will not attempt to "arrest" him (not my duty), nor shout for him to drop his weapon or "freeze" (Hollywood). I pray that I act swiftly and decisively enough to prevent him from causing further harm.
In all other situations it will be a case of taking the action believed to be the best at the time. For instance, if he's entered the store, pretends to be a customer and doesn't draw until at the counter, hasn't fired and there are others in the store, prudence dictates holding your fire unless you are postive you can stop him without injuring others or starting a firefight.
In the event of multiple thugs you may be forced to fight at the point of initial contact with an armed thug. Surprise and determination will be your only advantage.
Lastly, there may be circumstances that dictate that you do nothing except be a good witness and stay alive.
OldMarksman
Staff
Post #57...
...just about covers it all, in my view.
...just about covers it all, in my view.
As the author of the original post, I must say I have found the resulting discussion very interesting. Many, many responders made valid points. Anyone finding oneself in a similar situation will respond in the manner in which he/she believes is the best course of action at the time, in accordance with his/her own abilities and confidence level, and there really is no right or wrong answer. In such life and death scenarios, no armchair Monday morning quarterbacking is allowed. To each his own.
For myself, I would hope I would act thusly:
Assuming my first indication that something was wrong would be the sound of the BG shooting at the clerk, my first reaction would likely be to seek immediate cover (depending on where I stood in the store at the time), draw my weapon, and assess, in that order. I might even pull out my phone and dial 911, if I thought I could get away with it. I would then take the shot if possible.
Fortunately for me, the law in my state would be on my side in this scenario.
Hopefully, none of us will ever be faced with such a choice. Trying to think these things out ahead of time is a waste of time for some, and a little peace of mind for others. Again, to each his own. Personally, whenever a question like this raises its head, I can't help but think about it. For me, I do think it helps to consider the possibilities as there won't be time to think about it when it happens for real.
I can only hope that if I ever find myself in such a situation, I act honorably, within the law, and for the benefit of all innocents concerned.
For myself, I would hope I would act thusly:
Assuming my first indication that something was wrong would be the sound of the BG shooting at the clerk, my first reaction would likely be to seek immediate cover (depending on where I stood in the store at the time), draw my weapon, and assess, in that order. I might even pull out my phone and dial 911, if I thought I could get away with it. I would then take the shot if possible.
Fortunately for me, the law in my state would be on my side in this scenario.
Hopefully, none of us will ever be faced with such a choice. Trying to think these things out ahead of time is a waste of time for some, and a little peace of mind for others. Again, to each his own. Personally, whenever a question like this raises its head, I can't help but think about it. For me, I do think it helps to consider the possibilities as there won't be time to think about it when it happens for real.
I can only hope that if I ever find myself in such a situation, I act honorably, within the law, and for the benefit of all innocents concerned.
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
Well said, sir!
Ultimately, that's all any of us could hope for!