Defend a stranger?

J

JonnyP

New member
Say you're in a 7-Eleven and a BG walks in and starts shooting at the clerk. If you're legally armed and have a CCW permit, do you have a legal responsibility to defend him? If not, should you anyway? Should you just hide and hope for the best, try calling 911 on your cell, then respond only if directly threatened?

I ask this for two reasons. First, because a friend of my brother's was killed at a convenience store, apparently just for being there as we never did find out why. Don't know if he was the target or just more of a "target of opportunity," but he was definitely at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Second, with all the shootings we've heard about in schools, malls, etc., I've never heard of an armed bystander taking down a BG, though I'm sure it must have happened somewhere.

Seems like it would be a legal nightmare for someone just trying to help.

Thoughts?
 
You are not legally obligated, as an "average joe."
I would feel terrible knowing I could have done something, but didn't. So, I would say, if you can do so relatively safely, try to stop the shooter (by whatever means you think will be most successful).

Several shootings have been stopped by armed bystanders. One of the best examples was the school shooting in Pearl, MS. The New Life Church shooting is sort of that case. The volunteer security guard volunteered that day after hearing about a seminary shooting about 50miles away. The Appalachian School of Law shooting was stopped by two armed students and an unarmed one. The mall shooting in Utah was derailed by an off-duty LEO, who managed to pin down the shooter until more LE arrived. There was an office shooting in Florida where a CCWer stopped the shooter (who also had a bow, strangely enough...?)
 
I am not aware of any jurisdiction wherein a civilian would be legally required to help.

I am not aware of any jurisdiction wherein a civilian would be legally prohibited from helping.

Yes, there could be severe legal penalties for an attempt at assistance that goes bad.

Yes, there may be untold numbers of moral arguments made, both for assisting and for not assisting.
 
Issues:

1. Do you have a moral responsibility - quite fought over. When do you risk your life for others? Before you say you must, are you obligated to give to charity? Or do you just want to shoot it out to be a hero?

Much work on altruism and pro-social behavior demonstrated myriads of motives to act or not.

2. What are the laws in your state on defending others?

3. Have people saved others?

a. Yes and successfully
b. Have they screwed up and been seriously hurt and or killed?

One thing I would suggest is that before you blithely suggest intervention and that you carry the day with your head shots and guns of proven stopping power - you do some serious FOF in such scenarios and see what goes right or wrong. It opens your eyes.
 
Texas CHL law gives immunity from criminal prosecution to a “Good Samaritan” intervening to stop a crime but does not give civil suit immunity.

Big help, isn't it?
 
IMHO

No legal obligation.

A moral obligation to save an innocent life.

A practical obligation -- If you don't, you are now a witness to a murder. Where do you think the BG's gun will point next?
 
I would definitely like to see some articles describing these types of events.

This is one of those things where it is impossible to know precisely what one would do until actually faced with making such a decision. In the back of my mind, I always thought I would assist in the defense of bystanders if I witnessed a violent attack by someone clearly breaking the law. But with our lawsuit-happy society these days, I wonder...
 
I think unless you have been in a life and death situation with a BG, all tough guy stuff aside, it is imposable to predict your reaction. I have never been in a gun fight situation. I have been in many other crisis and life and death situations. In those cases, even with other highly trained people around, I have always been one of the few or only one that reacted calmly and efficiently dealt with it. I can only hope it would be the same if bullets started flying.

From my arm chair I can say I would certainly want to defend others and myself but you just don't know tell it comes up.

But remember "if in doubt run in circles scream and shout". Seams to be a common reaction in my experience.
 
Google bystander intervention, altruism, prosocial behavior in Google Scholar if you want theory.

If you want incidents - google good samartian, bystander, etc. and you come up with lots of news reports.
 
Gary L. Griffiths said:
A practical obligation -- If you don't, you are now a witness to a murder. Where do you think the BG's gun will point next?
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that "practical" is the word there. That's more of a scenario out of Godfather or the Soprano's, maybe even Law and Order, than real life. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely enough to be a consideration? Not in my world. It's not like they publish your name and address, work place and travel habits in the news paper next to your picture with the words "Murder Witness" in bold over top.
 
This is one of those things where you could come up with a scenario where you would certainly intervene...and also where you could tweak the situation to where it would be foolish to intervene. I guess I would have to be there and see how the spirit moved me, maybe yes maybe no.
 
Methinks you didn't realize the full implications of the situation, Peetza. You're right there in front of the BG when he offs the clerk. Of course, he knows you're a witness!
 
peetzakilla said:
I am not aware of any jurisdiction wherein a civilian would be legally required to help.

I am not aware of any jurisdiction wherein a civilian would be legally prohibited from helping.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are some states where you could get yourself in a whole lot of legal trouble. Now, I would have to go research exactly which states, but:

1. There are states that only have defense of self and family members in their statutes as lawful self defense justification. Oklahoma used to be one of those states, but I believe they removed that limitation from their statutes a few years ago.

2. More likely to apply, however, are states that mandate a duty to retreat. It could be argued that while the bad guy was killing others in the convenience store, instead of attempting to retreat, a person lawfully carrying a firearm decided to act as a vigilante, acting as judge, jury and executioner, taking it open themselves to execute the alleged attacker who would be considered the real victim in the situation.

Obviously, I don't agree with #2 at all, but I can see it happening in some states, and that is probably how it would be presented to a jury.

Personally, I would not hesitate to shoot, if I had a clear shot and there was little chance of collateral casualties from my shots.
 
Ky amended law:

(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:
(a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against imminent death,
serious physical injury, kidnapping,[ or] sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, or other
felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to Section 2 of
this Act; and
(b) Under the circumstances as they actually exist, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself
have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that
such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery,[ or] burglary, or other felony involving the use of force,
or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to Section 2 of this Act, in a dwelling, building or
upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts;
or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible,
 
Gary L. Griffith said:
Methinks you didn't realize the full implications of the situation, Peetza. You're right there in front of the BG when he offs the clerk. Of course, he knows you're a witness!
Click to expand...

Maybe.

He knows what you look like, if you're dumb enough to stand there and give him a nice profile, but he has no idea who you are or where you live. You could be from another state, or another country, for all he knows.

Besides that, if Mr BG knows that there are obvious witnesses around then he's pretty unlikely to let you stand there. He's going to take care of business right now.

NavyLt said:
2. More likely to apply, however, are states that mandate a duty to retreat. It could be argued that while the bad guy was killing others in the convenience store, instead of attempting to retreat, a person lawfully carrying a firearm decided to act as a vigilante, acting as judge, jury and executioner, taking it open themselves to execute the alleged attacker who would be considered the real victim in the situation.
Click to expand...

Are there states that do not include a provision of "with complete safety to self and others" in their retreat clauses?

New York has a retreat clause but it clearly lays out the "safety" exception. I thought they all did.

NavyLt said:
Personally, I would not hesitate to shoot, if I had a clear shot and there was little chance of collateral casualties from my shots.
Click to expand...

Generally, I would agree.
 
if I had a clear shot and there was little chance of collateral casualties from my shots
Click to expand...

I think it'd be reasonable to intervene in the circumstances quoted from NavyLT above if I was alone. If I had family with me, I'd grab the little kids, run the other way and use the cell phone, and use the gun only if cornered.
 
According to Section 13A-3-23 of the Alabama Code, use of deadly force in defense of a person (defined as yourself, family, or a third person) would be lawful in my original scenario. Still, it's tough to know what one would do until involved in such a situation...
 
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