Def 1300 'out of battery' issue?
- Thread starter Roamingdoc83
- Start date
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
Take it easy... it is not an 'auto' nor is it supposed to (according to Win) "auto eject". What the preponderance of commentary "and" the Win. manual indicates is that the 'bolt' opens upon discharge and is "supposed" to slide back in a manner assisting the opener (the shooter) and "bring back the hull/casing"... the shooter(!) continues the action and ejects the spent hull, moves the slide quickly forward inserting/chambering a new shell.
My issue is simply that when the bolt comes back out of battery it does not bring the hull/casing back with it and I have to quickly push it forward WHEN IT THEN grabs the spent hull/casing and will bring it back upon a 'pump' of the slide.
That seems, from all the research I've done in various forums and sites, to be a bit off from the expected function.
My examination of the mechanism(s) showed a decreasing angle 'extractor' and I am still trying to determine if this part (while it looks cleanly machined) is SUPPOSED to look like that (decreasing angle versus completely perpendicular to the hull/casing head)...
I am going to run several different makes of ammo thru it and determine first if this is some kind of 'ammo' related issue. Then I will also video it and show the video here (if that is possible so everyone can observe this little apparent glitch - which may not be at all ;^)... appreciate the constructive responses. Thanks very much.
My issue is simply that when the bolt comes back out of battery it does not bring the hull/casing back with it and I have to quickly push it forward WHEN IT THEN grabs the spent hull/casing and will bring it back upon a 'pump' of the slide.
That seems, from all the research I've done in various forums and sites, to be a bit off from the expected function.
My examination of the mechanism(s) showed a decreasing angle 'extractor' and I am still trying to determine if this part (while it looks cleanly machined) is SUPPOSED to look like that (decreasing angle versus completely perpendicular to the hull/casing head)...
I am going to run several different makes of ammo thru it and determine first if this is some kind of 'ammo' related issue. Then I will also video it and show the video here (if that is possible so everyone can observe this little apparent glitch - which may not be at all ;^)... appreciate the constructive responses. Thanks very much.
Page 3 of my manual DOES NOT say what you think.
------(Quote)
"A 1300 is so fast, we like to think of it as the "Speed Pump."
(next Par)
Here's why: a fraction of a second after you pull the trigger and fire a 1300, the lugs of the ultra-strong rotary bolt begins disengaging from the barrel extension. Recoil forces in the gun then assist the slide rearward. you can feel the slight rearward force on your forearm as you shoot, which makes it much easier to begin your pumping action. And you'll find you will complete the pumping action forward quickly and without consious effort. In a brief instant you've cycled a shell and are ready for a second shot."
-------- (END Quote, emphisis mine)
NEVER does it say the SHELL is EJECTED on its own w/o the aid of your FOREARM.
IOW your gun is ENGINEERED to need some resistance from your forearm....that is likely why your ejector skips off the shell Rim...it's going TOO FAST...
DOES your gun work when you PUMP it???.. You have not clearly answered that!
I'll bet it does. Because it was BUILT to work in TANDEM with two hands/arms.
You are trying to outsmart the engineeer, and listening to "clap trap" from the net.
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
Izzy, relax. I'm not contesting 'anything' you are saying. If I 'close' again the partially opened chamber and then 'rack' the slide back (pump it) and forth then a complete extraction and reload occurs. I had said this on 2009-07-23, 06:08 PM .
Luke, right... when "my" bolt comes back it comes back without grabbing anything. I "thought" I understood that, as it was recoil aided in opening, it should grab the hull/casing and begin to extract it from the chamber... the shooter then "completed" the opening and ejecting and closing (with new round).
So, if the 'recoil aided' chamber opening IS NOT (and I don't believe you said that) supposed to grab the 'hull' and hold it for ejection, why have it open in the first place (recoil aided only, no auto ejection)? I mean, Izzy sounds like the shooter must 'close' (again) the slide to pick up the hull but I doubt that is what he means...
I'm taking the shotgun to the range and will shoot it with some Winchester #6 and see if it grabs the 'hull' as it auto-rotates open the slide part way.
Thanks.
Luke, right... when "my" bolt comes back it comes back without grabbing anything. I "thought" I understood that, as it was recoil aided in opening, it should grab the hull/casing and begin to extract it from the chamber... the shooter then "completed" the opening and ejecting and closing (with new round).
So, if the 'recoil aided' chamber opening IS NOT (and I don't believe you said that) supposed to grab the 'hull' and hold it for ejection, why have it open in the first place (recoil aided only, no auto ejection)? I mean, Izzy sounds like the shooter must 'close' (again) the slide to pick up the hull but I doubt that is what he means...
I'm taking the shotgun to the range and will shoot it with some Winchester #6 and see if it grabs the 'hull' as it auto-rotates open the slide part way.
Thanks.
Doc,
That's not what I'm asking. I asked if you totally use the gun as intended, that is to use it with 2 hands from begining to end ( full cycle) does it work? It seems like it does from your wording.
If that's the case, dont YOU worry, and YOU should relax....your SG is fine.
Others ( like Luke) are seem confused because:
Yah, and so what... the manual never even mentions the shell, neither extarction nor ejection. All it talks about is the bolt.
I'm not confused about anything.
The gun only extracts and ejects the spent hull properly (with that particular ammunition) with the following 3 (instead of the normal 1) motions.
1. The firing pin strikes the primer and the powder pushes the shot out of the barrel and exerts a rearward force on the bolt and the forearm, assisting the shooter in moving the bolt and forearm rearward. The hull remains in the chamber.
2. The shooter moves the forearm and bolt forward and slams the extractor over the hull to grip it for extraction.
3. The shooter moves the forearm and bolt rearward (again), this time the shell is extracted from the chamber and then ejected from the gun. The gun is now ready to accept another round from either the magazine or one that is inserted directly into the chamber.
It may be a problem with the particular ammunition or it may be a problem with the extractor, but it is most certainly NOT normal operation. Of that I can be sure.
The gun only extracts and ejects the spent hull properly (with that particular ammunition) with the following 3 (instead of the normal 1) motions.
1. The firing pin strikes the primer and the powder pushes the shot out of the barrel and exerts a rearward force on the bolt and the forearm, assisting the shooter in moving the bolt and forearm rearward. The hull remains in the chamber.
2. The shooter moves the forearm and bolt forward and slams the extractor over the hull to grip it for extraction.
3. The shooter moves the forearm and bolt rearward (again), this time the shell is extracted from the chamber and then ejected from the gun. The gun is now ready to accept another round from either the magazine or one that is inserted directly into the chamber.
It may be a problem with the particular ammunition or it may be a problem with the extractor, but it is most certainly NOT normal operation. Of that I can be sure.
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
I believe I use the gun as intended... from everything I've read the 1300 18.5" Defender (out of production now I guess) should partially open the 'breech' upon firing "and" that sliding rearward of the bolt assembly "should" have in its grasp the 'fired' hull/casing... ready to CONTINUE the opening by manual effort of the shooter. Upon opening manually the 'hull' should be ejected and then the shooter manually begins the closing of the breech and the loading of a new round.
As Luke indicates (correctly)... my shotgun, being held firmly with both hands and set against my shoulder ;^) discharges, the slide comes back "without" grabbing or 'beginning' the extraction process of the spent hull/casing and I have to PUSH the slide closed to pick up the hull... seems very inefficient in that the 'slide opens' (as designed) but the shooter has to 'close again' and then REOPEN to grab and extract the hull and cycle the new round. "If" (and I know it was not) this is by design, why have it open part way upon discharge? It serves no purpose if it does not grab the 'hull' and ready it for manually finishing the cycle and ejecting the spent case?
So, we'll see what a few different makes of ammo do "and" I'm still looking for a good up close picture of the 1300's extractor to confirm mine is intact and the way it should be (as mentioned, slight 'angle' away from perpendicular to the head at one [top or upper] end of extractor).
Thanks.
As Luke indicates (correctly)... my shotgun, being held firmly with both hands and set against my shoulder ;^) discharges, the slide comes back "without" grabbing or 'beginning' the extraction process of the spent hull/casing and I have to PUSH the slide closed to pick up the hull... seems very inefficient in that the 'slide opens' (as designed) but the shooter has to 'close again' and then REOPEN to grab and extract the hull and cycle the new round. "If" (and I know it was not) this is by design, why have it open part way upon discharge? It serves no purpose if it does not grab the 'hull' and ready it for manually finishing the cycle and ejecting the spent case?
So, we'll see what a few different makes of ammo do "and" I'm still looking for a good up close picture of the 1300's extractor to confirm mine is intact and the way it should be (as mentioned, slight 'angle' away from perpendicular to the head at one [top or upper] end of extractor).
Thanks.
kirbythegunsmith
New member
Details
An extractor for the 1300 and clones runs on the end coil of the long and heavy duty extractor spring, the likes of which practically no other gun employs in as much quantity.
Simple issues may be evident upon inspection, such as extractor groove burrs or mis-cut angle or incompleteness, therefore inhibiting the extractor edge from properly hooking the rim edge during the withdrawal/rotation of the bolt head.
Then there is the possibility of the extractor being inhibited by the parts in the bolt area, such as burrs or a distorted spring coil end. The hook end may be slightly duffed, bent, or even have a cracked off section, being of very hard material construction.
Any old lube that may have been left in the chamber, or corrosion that may have inadvertently been allowed to occur, or chamber machining defects present that inhibit shells (some more than others at times) from immediate extraction, all can be present in any combination and work in concert to cause mechanical failure.
Kirby
An extractor for the 1300 and clones runs on the end coil of the long and heavy duty extractor spring, the likes of which practically no other gun employs in as much quantity.
Simple issues may be evident upon inspection, such as extractor groove burrs or mis-cut angle or incompleteness, therefore inhibiting the extractor edge from properly hooking the rim edge during the withdrawal/rotation of the bolt head.
Then there is the possibility of the extractor being inhibited by the parts in the bolt area, such as burrs or a distorted spring coil end. The hook end may be slightly duffed, bent, or even have a cracked off section, being of very hard material construction.
Any old lube that may have been left in the chamber, or corrosion that may have inadvertently been allowed to occur, or chamber machining defects present that inhibit shells (some more than others at times) from immediate extraction, all can be present in any combination and work in concert to cause mechanical failure.
Kirby
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
"...simple failure to extract."
Would seem that way 'excepting' when I 're'-close the slide it grabs that case and brings it back ALL the time... just doesn't take it out upon the 'first' opening (when fired)... it is weird but I will get a video up of how it is behaving and WOULD LOVE to have a photo...
The 'spring' feels perfect... I mean, just nice with good tension. I have to obtain an armorer's manual for this shotgun... don't have one. Just a PDF of the in the box manual.
Thanks...
Would seem that way 'excepting' when I 're'-close the slide it grabs that case and brings it back ALL the time... just doesn't take it out upon the 'first' opening (when fired)... it is weird but I will get a video up of how it is behaving and WOULD LOVE to have a photo...
The 'spring' feels perfect... I mean, just nice with good tension. I have to obtain an armorer's manual for this shotgun... don't have one. Just a PDF of the in the box manual.
Thanks...
It could be a chamber burr, as noted by others ( remington is becoming famous for this) , out of spec ammo ( AL vs. CU base?) or annother reason... operator error .....but if it helps, here is what a mod 1300 defender extractor should look like:
I treat it like a pump, and it works for me. One point this has taught me, is firing a 1300 with one hand is a liability in SD.... Unlike in a Mossy or Rem.
I treat it like a pump, and it works for me. One point this has taught me, is firing a 1300 with one hand is a liability in SD.... Unlike in a Mossy or Rem.
Last edited:
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
Perfect! That or Those are exactly what mine looks like right down to the slight variation in 'angle/width' from one side to the other of the extractor.
I 'do' shoot it with both hands and my shoulder all the time... never one handed.
So I am going to have to get that video and watch it slow 'mo to see what is happening "or" train with it and see if there is something I'm doing...
The Knoxx does REALLY cut down on the recoil... and I thought it might be the cause of the 'initial' failure to pick up the hull. But perhaps not.
Thanks for the great photos...
Izzy, do you have a 'armorers' manual or would you 'suggest' one to buy?
Thanks.
I 'do' shoot it with both hands and my shoulder all the time... never one handed.
So I am going to have to get that video and watch it slow 'mo to see what is happening "or" train with it and see if there is something I'm doing...
The Knoxx does REALLY cut down on the recoil... and I thought it might be the cause of the 'initial' failure to pick up the hull. But perhaps not.
Thanks for the great photos...
Izzy, do you have a 'armorers' manual or would you 'suggest' one to buy?
Thanks.
unfortunately not. These may help instead of a book and its free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVROeqRYdoM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMiO2GQ3isw&feature=PlayList&p=31620229D51BCDFB&index=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b71bI0rH1g8&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVROeqRYdoM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMiO2GQ3isw&feature=PlayList&p=31620229D51BCDFB&index=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b71bI0rH1g8&feature=fvw
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
Great vids... will be checking my action/recoil and trying to determine why it is not grabbing that hull. Thanks.
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
Update (and very sorry for the long delay, diagnosed with illness that is not fun)... "if" I replace the KNOXX recoil reducing 'stock' (aftermarket) with the original stock, the SHOTGUN 'grabs' the empty hull and begins properly the extraction and ejection process in the manner prescribed by the "assisted" opening of the Winchester. Soooooo, dang it all, the Knoxx seems to create something "similar" to a 'limp wrist' failure to extract in a pistol. I would suggest it is "because" of the 'assisted opening' aspect but not sure. Will contact Knoxx/Blackhawk. Will sell the 'Winchester' and get an 870 with the Knoxx. 
Roamingdoc83
Inactive
Ooops - mistake
Sadly the addition of the 'factory stock' does NOT solve the ISSUE - it still does not 'extract' the hull in about 65-70% of the time. I didn't run enough rounds to note this when I posted last so thought it was cured.
Last evening I completely broke down, scrubbed and cleaned the shotgun and put the Knoxx back on in hopes that I could still use it (the artificial shoulder I have does NOT like recoil) as it does reduce recoil substantially.
Upon disassembling I noted that the 'bolt' does not break down farther than the rectangular 'carrier' (aside from pulling the Firing pin out) and that I could not actually see the bolt body with the exception of portions thru the carriers openings. I did scrub some 'varnish' off the back of the bolt and cleaned all the lugs and the chamber on the barrel. I oiled the bolt slightly and the guide/slider on the right side of the shotgun (where it interfaces with the bolt carrier).
I cleaned up the trigger mechanism and made sure that there was nothing immediately obvious that would foul the action.
So I plan to shoot it and 'not' put my left hand on the slide at all. IF THE HULL Is picked up as the "speed pump" assist moves the slide PARTIALLY backwards I will know that "I" am the issue, something in my left hand grip on the slide is obstructing the motion. If it does NOT bring back the hull without my interference than I must assume something is internally wrong with the bolt (although there is no outward signs and ALL the parts look exactly like the photos in this thread!) and send it to a gunsmith for deeper examination.
Don't want to spend any money as suddenly 'unemployed' (what is with this economy!?)... hoping to figure it out without gunsmith.
DOES ANYONE know how to get the actual BOLT out of the carrier without dynamite?
Thanks
Doc
Sadly the addition of the 'factory stock' does NOT solve the ISSUE - it still does not 'extract' the hull in about 65-70% of the time. I didn't run enough rounds to note this when I posted last so thought it was cured.
Last evening I completely broke down, scrubbed and cleaned the shotgun and put the Knoxx back on in hopes that I could still use it (the artificial shoulder I have does NOT like recoil) as it does reduce recoil substantially.
Upon disassembling I noted that the 'bolt' does not break down farther than the rectangular 'carrier' (aside from pulling the Firing pin out) and that I could not actually see the bolt body with the exception of portions thru the carriers openings. I did scrub some 'varnish' off the back of the bolt and cleaned all the lugs and the chamber on the barrel. I oiled the bolt slightly and the guide/slider on the right side of the shotgun (where it interfaces with the bolt carrier).
I cleaned up the trigger mechanism and made sure that there was nothing immediately obvious that would foul the action.
So I plan to shoot it and 'not' put my left hand on the slide at all. IF THE HULL Is picked up as the "speed pump" assist moves the slide PARTIALLY backwards I will know that "I" am the issue, something in my left hand grip on the slide is obstructing the motion. If it does NOT bring back the hull without my interference than I must assume something is internally wrong with the bolt (although there is no outward signs and ALL the parts look exactly like the photos in this thread!) and send it to a gunsmith for deeper examination.
Don't want to spend any money as suddenly 'unemployed' (what is with this economy!?)... hoping to figure it out without gunsmith.
DOES ANYONE know how to get the actual BOLT out of the carrier without dynamite?
Thanks
Doc