Death penalty

"Now, grant me a science fictional means of accurately determining guilt, and I wll gladly see a lot of unsavory sorts off to the gallows."

There are any number of cases that are not clouded by prosecutorial misconduct and did not require "science fictional" means to accurately determine guilt.
There are also cases that are less clear.
 
I think largely we've forgotten this due to fear. People have this sense, partly aided by the media (news and entertainment), that they could be raped or murdered anytime they leave their house.
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Um. That's quite true. People think "it happens to other people", but YOU are part of the other people to everyone else.

It's why some of us carry guns, remember?
 
I fully support the death penalty even though it's not legal in Mass. Yes, like a good portion of our judicial system, there are flaws. But, if managed properly, it can be used as a deterrent. Situations like irrefutable DNA evidence or catching the perpetrator in the act. But as indicated previously, it has to be streamlined so it doesn't take as long to happen. There should be a 1 year cap period for those that fall into certain guidelines.

Case in point is that sicko in Mass that just recently kidnapped a pre-teen girl out of her house, raped her and was caught red handed trying to bury her alive. If ever there was cause for the death penalty, that is it. It's actually given life to the death sentence debate here. That whacko should fry. They should let the parents flip the switch. Or how about Entwistle, the British father who killed his wife and baby and then fled to England to avoid prosecution. He should fry as well.

Some people just deserve to not be living. While imprisonment for life sounds all good, it actually causes bigger problems. Problems like overcrowding in our already stretched thin prison system. More lifers mean less room for other felons, who in turn get let out earlier to make room form more lifers. Some felons that shouldn't be back on the street for years are out early. This enrages the victims of these felons as it seems they got off easy. How is that fair to law abiding citizens?
 
Texas leads the nation with the death penalty. We put to death more convicts than any other state. It generally takes from time of conviction to death approximately 15 years with all of the appeals available. While I am a firm believer in the death penalty, I believe there should be undisputable DNA or fingerprint evidence present before the death penalty can be considered. Eye witnesses can see all kinds of things that aren't really there or not see things as they really were- ask any LEO. If a crime is witnessed by ten people, there will be ten different versions of the crime. The truth is often found in the middle. Only have one witness and you are betting a mans life on one persons memory, correct or not. It's a crime to our society to put to death an innocent human and I'm sure it has happened in Texas. I think the death penalty needs to be functional but with qualifying limits.
 
Overcrowding is coming from minor drug possession cases.

As far as a deterrent, that has never been shown - proponents of the issue are usually politically right. Opponents politically left.

Neutral studies don't show it.

The argument from emotion is not a good one, given the orientation in the USA legal system to avoid punishing the innocent.
 
Yea, that free cable, internet, gym, air conditioning, no work, free healthcare, education, etc... HAS GOT TO BE HELL!!!!
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If it's so great, why don't you volunteer for it?

Education is of little use if you never get to use it, and from what I understand prison health care isn't exactly the best. I don't think all the cable and internet in the world can replace proximity to another human being you love, and air conditioning is a poor substitute for being able to roam free even on the hottest of days...whether in the city or up in the mountains, depending where you're from.

Everybody's always going on about how great prison is...yet most people still don't want to go there. Odd, that. If prison is so great, why don't more criminals just plead out to the most severe charges they face and volunteer for the longest sentences possible?

Um. That's quite true. People think "it happens to other people", but YOU are part of the other people to everyone else.

It's why some of us carry guns, remember?
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It is indeed. But seeing as absolute safety is impossible to achieve (even states with the death penalty have random homicides, no?) it comes down to a question of what you're willing to do to feel safeer.

Personally I have values that I'm not willing to trade for what is, at best, a marginal increase in safety. I think in comparison to the level of safety I obtain from my right to own firearms and our public funding of police, the additional safety obtained by my state's use of the death penalty is practically non-existent.
 
I recall seeing a TV program 20 years ago with the late Claude Brown, author of
"Manchild in the Promised Land", his memoirs about life in Harlem in the 1950s
and 60s. I distinctly remember him saying. "I am in favor of the death penalty for felony muder. Being sent to prison means nothing to a ghetto
kid, he gets all the opportunities he never got before."
 
There is one absolute that all executed criminals have in common. They never killed anyone else. The ultimate deterrent carried out as it should be. Should be done with fewer delays.

Anygun.
 
One of the reasons the United States is a far superior place to live than any of the European sissystates is because we have the death penalty. We don't require a dictator for imposition of the death penalty, as someone childishly suggested, just the will of the American people, who overwhelmingly support the death penalty. If you take pansy Democrats out of the equation, the percentage of support would be dramatically overwhelming.

Some of you guys need to attend a murder trial and sit and listen to testimony, just for your own self-edification. Might surprise you what uncivilized savages do to the rest of us in a supposedly civilized society.
 
I don't generally think of it that often.We don't require a dictator for imposition of the death penalty, as someone childishly suggested, just the will of the American people, who overwhelmingly support the death penalty. If you take pansy Democrats out of the equation, the percentage of support would be dramatically overwhelming.
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I know. If you just got rid of that half of the population, you'd be a huge majority.

Some of you guys need to attend a murder trial and sit and listen to testimony, just for your own self-edification. Might surprise you what uncivilized savages do to the rest of us in a supposedly civilized society.
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No, it wouldn't.
 
Alleykat, what do you do about the guy who was tried, convicted and executed, but was found to be innocent at a later date? Do you just shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well. Crap happens."

Of course, you are not the only one to display this attitude.

Realisticly, the death penalty does not deter crime. The death penalty is not about justice, it is about revenge.

Like some others here, I find myself conflicted. I am for the death penalty, if it can be proved that the person committed the crime beyond any doubt. Note the wording I used. The standard should be far above the usual standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

Barring that, the death penalty should be off the table. Otherwise we are simply condoning cold blooded murder.
 
Like some others here, I find myself conflicted. I am for the death penalty, if it can be proved that the person committed the crime beyond any doubt. Note the wording I used. The standard should be far above the usual standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
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I dont know that I join with the notion of beyond any doubt, but the standard of proof to impose the death penalty should be elevated...but query, isnt the present use of "penalty phases" sufficient?

WildhavealsobeenconflictedaboutdeathforyearsAlaska TM
 
Death Penalty vs. Life Penalty

Several well reasoned opinions here so far, and tending in the same general direction. Death penalty should (ought) to be in cases of no doubt whatsoever, (only), and not take so long.

Or, death penalty is ok in principle, but is flawed, the way we carry it out, and therefore should not use it until we can do it "fairly".

The whole debate is a complex mixture of smaller issues, bound up with the larger moral issue of (state sanctioned) execution. Some folks have issues with the "death" part, some with the "state" part, and others only about the way we carry it out. Some folks don't have a real opinion, and don't bother themselves with it until it intrudes into their lives.

I do not see any reason in not supporting the basic idea of a death penalty. No matter who carries it out, I believe it is something needed by mankind, indeed we have had it longer than we have had civilization. The basic underlying animal ability to kill what ever it is that is trying to kill us, be it man or beast, the natural right of self defense, how can any rational individual argue against that?

Everyone of us here who owns a gun, and has has ever even briefly considered the possibility that they would use it in gravest extreme, must acknowledge the principle that an individual may bring about their own death by their actions against others (death penalty), or be a hypocrite.

So, if we can accept the idea that we have the right to shoot, and that death may result, and that this can happen in an instant, how can we object when the death results after a (too?) lengthy time of deliberation?

More "primative" cultures than our own, and our own past all treat the death penalty differently than we currently do. Today we have most of our legal system operating under the sentiment of "better 100 guilty go free than one innocent man..."etc. Very Noble. Very Enlightened. But we get some of the innocent anyway. Sad, tragic, the very situation the phrase "miscarriage of justice" was coined to represent. But sadly, it is the real world we live in. A century and more ago we had the same problems (possibly worse), but generally there was a different attitude. Something more along the lines of "if we hang an innocent man now and then, that's sad, but it is the price we pay for hanging the guilty."

The argument for life in prison is a fairly strong one, chief points being the thought that life in prison is a fate worse than death (which is arguable), and the "moral high ground" of not killing, even through the impersonal offices of the justice system.

The argument against life in prison seem nearly as strong, if not stronger in some cases. The fact that life in prison may not be "life", in fact, but simply a number of years, then parole, and the expense to the taxpayers of a "life" sentence. Add to that the emotional satisfaction many feel when a threat to the community is permanently removed, and the fact that while the death penalty's deterrent effect on others is argued, there is no argument that it is a sovereign remedy for repeat offences. Taken all together, I say yes, we should have a death penalty.

Now, how we go about applying it is another matter entirely.
 
44AMP, pretty well said. :)

Let's think on this some...
A) Average robbery where victim shot & killed. Suspect apprehended via investigation has stolen gun that matches the murder weapon, has a watch matching the description of the victim's missing watch and we have one of his fingerprints on the plastic ID window of the victim's wallet. But when charged with the murder, he gasps "I didn't do it! Fred pulled the trigger!" Further he claims Fred stashed the gun in his garage without his knowing it. So... who gets capital punishment?

B) Man is enraged about his wife's infidelity and lies in wait for her to meet her clandestine lover. He confronts them, shoots both to death. He is captured at the scene almost immediately. Death penalty case? Yes or no?

C) Ex-Felon climbs into a child's bedroom and kidnaps her in the wee hours of the night. He takes her to the hills, strangles her to death while raping her. After capture, he confesses, locates the body for authorites and says he did her a "favor". Death penalty case? Yes or No?

D) Armed robbery of a store goes bad when store owner reaches for a gun. Perp fires three shots from a .32ACP, none hitting the owner, but one fatally striking an elderly woman beyond the owner. Perp was heard shouting "No! No! Don't! Don't!" before shooting but has lawyered up after capture. Store video is poor quality and not positive ID of the shooter. Death penalty case? Yes or No?

E) [From recent headlines] Armed home invasion robbery goes awry and the two suspects shoot a visitor twice, killing him, but two others in the house are unhurt. On the way out, a suspect stops at the victim's car and fires one round into the head of a 7-month old baby strapped in his car seat. When arrested, police find matching hoodie with powder residue and ball cap and the murder weapon. Death penalty case? Yes or No?

F) A 911 call brings police to a violent mugging and as they arrive they arrest a 26 year old with a record of violence because he is leaving the area with blood on his right hand and on his shirt. They discover the victim is an 83 year old woman who was beaten to death in the lobby of her apartment building. Two witnesses describe the suspect in custody and later pick him out of a line-up. On the suspect is the woman's social security check, her silver cross necklace and her wedding ring. Death penalty case? Yes or No.
 
If it's so great, why don't you volunteer for it?

Education is of little use if you never get to use it, and from what I understand prison health care isn't exactly the best. I don't think all the cable and internet in the world can replace proximity to another human being you love, and air conditioning is a poor substitute for being able to roam free even on the hottest of days...whether in the city or up in the mountains, depending where you're from.

Everybody's always going on about how great prison is...yet most people still don't want to go there. Odd, that. If prison is so great, why don't more criminals just plead out to the most severe charges they face and volunteer for the longest sentences possible?
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I am volunteering to work in the prison, hence my application to the sheriff's dept. So I hope to be in there, just not in the way you are insinuating. For prisoners, of course it is not the lap of luxury, and you are denied freedoms you would have otherwise. But, it is a hell of a lot better than it was in years past. It is a hell of a lot better than prisons in most other countries.

Education, though not able to be used, is quite gratifying to people, even when it is not necessarily used to get a job or go to work. It provides a sense of accomplishment, a sense of pride and success. Murderers, rapists and the kind should not be granted such senses.

The point is, that they do not 'suffer' in prison the way most of us would see fit for them. Chain gangs on hot days, seclusion from other prisoners, no tv, no air conditioning, no gym and education, cleaning the showers with a toothbrush and spit...that is what we would consider quality time in a prison. But, that is not what goes on in the prisons.
 
Isn't there a jail or prison...

in New Mexico, where they sleep on cots, in tents, no A/C, TV, gym equipment, and the food is similar to C-rats?
 
I've noticed that argument/debate has slipped in the public as well--I'm definitely not the best debater, I can't think of words quick enough, but I'm trying. I've especially indulged in trying to defend my other hobby--cigars. People just don't understand how they are different from cigarettes and why I would bother with them. And these are med students, (i'm in school still) and they are just as much of dumbasses sometimes as the crazies in the psych-ward.
 
The death penalty is not about justice, it is about revenge.
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To quote the ever-quotable Juvenalis,

Juvenalis said:
At vindicta bonum vita jucundius ipsa nempe hoc indocti
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Or one more reason why I believe logical discourse has little if any place in debates regarding death penalty.
 
OK, LOTS of misinformation here, lets set a few records straight. I have been working for AZ DOC for 6 years,am currently a Correctional Sergeant, and have worked medium custody,(SO), close custody, (GP and SO), Supermax, and Death Row. I have been there, done that.
Let's get started.
The only snag in this system is a potential weak kneed politician who will grant a pardon after so many years.
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Tell that to Eastlacks' victims, after he escaped, and killed three more people. Tell that to the people in Florence, Casa Grande, Coolidge and Queen Creek, after a double murderer escaped from a private prison two days ago. He still is at large, someone convicted of two violent homicides. Tell them the only snag is politicians letting them out early. But tell them from a distance, safer that way. The death penalty works well in it's intended role - state sanctioned execution. The ultimate penalty for the ultimate crime. Removal from society without ever the possabilty of committing more heinous crimes in the future. And they do - they have nothing to lose.
in New Mexico, where they sleep on cots, in tents, no A/C, TV, gym equipment, and the food is similar to C-rats?
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Sherrif Joe Arpios' tent city in Maricopa County, AZ, pink boxers, cold food, no coffee, etc. Works OK.

I am volunteering to work in the prison, hence my application to the sheriff's dept.
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Welcome, friend, go in with an open mind and fast reflexes.

A) Average robbery where victim shot & killed. Suspect apprehended via investigation has stolen gun that matches the murder weapon, has a watch matching the description of the victim's missing watch and we have one of his fingerprints on the plastic ID window of the victim's wallet. But when charged with the murder, he gasps "I didn't do it! Fred pulled the trigger!" Further he claims Fred stashed the gun in his garage without his knowing it. So... who gets capital punishment?
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Whoever a jury of his peers determines to be the guilty party. I have lost count of the number of lawbreakers who claim, "That isn't mine!" I didn't do it!"

B) Man is enraged about his wife's infidelity and lies in wait for her to meet her clandestine lover. He confronts them, shoots both to death. He is captured at the scene almost immediately. Death penalty case? Yes or no?
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Yes, Murder One.

C) Ex-Felon climbs into a child's bedroom and kidnaps her in the wee hours of the night. He takes her to the hills, strangles her to death while raping her. After capture, he confesses, locates the body for authorites and says he did her a "favor". Death penalty case? Yes or No?
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Yes. Remorse after the fact means nothing. I know many inmates who could win Academy Awards for thier acting abilities.

I could go on answering all of them but realize one HUGE fact - it's not up to you. It's up to the jury, the judges YOU retain in office, and the politicians YOU elect.

The argument for life in prison is a fairly strong one, chief points being the thought that life in prison is a fate worse than death (which is arguable), and the "moral high ground" of not killing, even through the impersonal offices of the justice system.
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Nope, life in prison defeats the basic purposes OF prison, that to punish or rehabilitate. Punishment without the possability of reformation is torture. rehabilitating with no possability of release is wasted time, money, and energy. Keeping inmates behind bars for life means YOU have to pay for thier food/water/federal court mandated items, (cableTV, law libraries, etc, all mandated by liberal judges), health care, and always, always, the possability they may escape to kill again. Remember, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.
I dont know that I join with the notion of beyond any doubt, but the standard of proof to impose the death penalty should be elevated...
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Absolutely, DNA testing IS making it easier to prove innocence or guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I agree there should be a mandatory retrial in any capital punishment case, humans may make mistakes, and evidence MUST be clear. But once the same judgment is rendered three times, carry it out. That afternoon.

Some people just deserve to not be living. While imprisonment for life sounds all good, it actually causes bigger problems. Problems like overcrowding in our already stretched thin prison system. More lifers mean less room for other felons, who in turn get let out earlier to make room form more lifers. Some felons that shouldn't be back on the street for years are out early. This enrages the victims of these felons as it seems they got off easy. How is that fair to law abiding citizens?
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Very true, with some caveats. AZ requires 85% sentance served, 100% in violent offenses. Also we have life in prison, which has parole, and Natural Life, which is plain speak for thou shalt die behind bars.
My Department is many thousands of inmates over crowded. You, the taxpayer, have a hard choice to make - how much more of your hard earned dough are you willing to fork over to build bigger, better prisons, staff them, and maintain them? It's your money, choose your elected officials wisely.
Yea, that free cable, internet, gym, air conditioning, no work, free healthcare, education, etc... HAS GOT TO BE HELL!!!!
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The following applies to AZ only - cable TV is paid for through profits from the inmate store. No internent available to any inmate, no gym available to any inmate, no A/C,(swamp coolers), we mandate 85% of our inmates MUST work at one job or another, visits to the Health Unit cost $3 each copay, (sounds great until you realize they earn between $.10 and $.45 an hour), educationis freem due to many many federal lawsuits. Cable TV is mnadatory through federal lawsuit. There ya go.

Overcrowding is coming from minor drug possession cases.
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Check the sentancing papers- minor drug posession cases often go to treatment, probation, etc. Other drug offenders usually have about 6 other charges with the drug offense. I looked. I have found ONE inmate who really shouldn't be here. He has a darn good chance to win his appeal, and I wish him best of luck.


I will leave this at what I have so far. Capital Punishment works in it's most basic role - stopping that particular killer from killing ever again, because it is a fact that many killers will kill again, given the opportunity. Some of my co-workers have died because people with "the moral high ground" decided it was unfair to the little darlin's to use capital punishment, so during thier life imprisonment, they decided to take a few of us with them. It has happened, it will happen again, yet we are crazy enough to take our oaths seriously, and continue to keep the tender babies locked up, where they cannot hurt you or your loved ones.
Sleep well America, your military, police, and correctional staff are all working to let you sleep safely tonight.
 
Armoredman,
I love your reasoning. Don't think I disagree with anything you said there. One of my brothers is a Correctional Officer. He's told me a few stories that make you want to puke.

I to think there's some tweaking to the laws of carrying out the death penalty. As long as each state is left alone to allow/disallow the death penalty, I can accept that for now. I have other issues that I'm not OK with that IMO is the reason for prison overcrowding...
 
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