DC pays through the nose for AD's
- Thread starter warhammer357
- Start date
jaysouth - thanks for the post on the criminals in that infamous D.C. recruit class. I was going to do a search for it, but you saved me the trouble.
Maybe I will do a Washington Post search for the series of articles on the complete lack of firearms training and qualification that went on for 1 1/2 years IIRC.
John
Maybe I will do a Washington Post search for the series of articles on the complete lack of firearms training and qualification that went on for 1 1/2 years IIRC.
John
I'm back already.
It was easy to find the 5-part article. I don't like Glocks much, but fair is fair.
Note the 5th paragraph. Officers and supervisors ignored the rule requiring qualification every 6 months.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police1page3.htm
"An instructor at the police academy in the early 1990s, Detective Michael Hubbard, told a reporter at the time that some of the new officers were "20 lawsuits on the street waiting to happen."
The Post's analysis shows that the Classes of 1989 and 1990 are disproportionately represented in police shootings from 1994 to mid-1998. For example, officers from those classes now make up less than one-third of the force but were involved in more than half of the shootings, according to police firearm discharge records.
At the same time the rookies were coming on the force in mid-1989, Washington adopted the Glock handgun to serve as an equalizer for police confronting crack cocaine gangs armed with machine guns. The Austrian-made Glock 17 is known for its lack of an external manual safety, making it easier to fire quickly. The pistol carries 17 bullets in its magazine and one in the chamber, tripling the firepower of an ordinary police revolver. And the trigger is much easier to squeeze.
"You don't have to make a conscious effort to pull it back like with a revolver," said Jeff Green, a retired homicide detective. "You just jerk it a little bit and you will fire a round."
Such a lethal gun demands extensive training. D.C. officers have long been required to report to the firearms shooting range and qualify with their handguns at least every six months. Throughout the 1990s, most officers ignored the rule, as did supervisors.
In the summer of 1994, Chief Fred Thomas vowed to set a "drop-dead date" by which time officers would have to retrain or face losing their weapons. "If we don't do that, we may as well open up the bank accounts because lawyers will have a field day," Thomas told The Post at the time. But Thomas retired a year later, and the crackdown never occurred.
By 1995, as police shootings hit a record high, a new chief, Soulsby, lamented inadequate training. "If you look at it, overnight, we've gotten a very young force that's received very little training," Soulsby told The Post. The next year, Soulsby announced a massive retraining program – "I have no choice," he said at the time – but officials say the effort fizzled.
"The commanding officers didn't want to give up officers to training. They needed them in the field," said former lieutenant Lowell Duckett, who retired last year.
This year, as Ramsey became the fifth chief in six years, a D.C. Council special committee investigation showed that 50 to 60 percent of the force had not properly qualified with their firearms.
The Post found that the training deficiency was even higher among officers who fired their weapons on the street – nearly three-quarters of the officers involved in shooting incidents in 1996 had not qualified, according to internal police documents obtained by The Post. In a report released in October, the special committee found "there was no budgetary-related reason for the failure – only poor management." "
It was easy to find the 5-part article. I don't like Glocks much, but fair is fair.
Note the 5th paragraph. Officers and supervisors ignored the rule requiring qualification every 6 months.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police1page3.htm
"An instructor at the police academy in the early 1990s, Detective Michael Hubbard, told a reporter at the time that some of the new officers were "20 lawsuits on the street waiting to happen."
The Post's analysis shows that the Classes of 1989 and 1990 are disproportionately represented in police shootings from 1994 to mid-1998. For example, officers from those classes now make up less than one-third of the force but were involved in more than half of the shootings, according to police firearm discharge records.
At the same time the rookies were coming on the force in mid-1989, Washington adopted the Glock handgun to serve as an equalizer for police confronting crack cocaine gangs armed with machine guns. The Austrian-made Glock 17 is known for its lack of an external manual safety, making it easier to fire quickly. The pistol carries 17 bullets in its magazine and one in the chamber, tripling the firepower of an ordinary police revolver. And the trigger is much easier to squeeze.
"You don't have to make a conscious effort to pull it back like with a revolver," said Jeff Green, a retired homicide detective. "You just jerk it a little bit and you will fire a round."
Such a lethal gun demands extensive training. D.C. officers have long been required to report to the firearms shooting range and qualify with their handguns at least every six months. Throughout the 1990s, most officers ignored the rule, as did supervisors.
In the summer of 1994, Chief Fred Thomas vowed to set a "drop-dead date" by which time officers would have to retrain or face losing their weapons. "If we don't do that, we may as well open up the bank accounts because lawyers will have a field day," Thomas told The Post at the time. But Thomas retired a year later, and the crackdown never occurred.
By 1995, as police shootings hit a record high, a new chief, Soulsby, lamented inadequate training. "If you look at it, overnight, we've gotten a very young force that's received very little training," Soulsby told The Post. The next year, Soulsby announced a massive retraining program – "I have no choice," he said at the time – but officials say the effort fizzled.
"The commanding officers didn't want to give up officers to training. They needed them in the field," said former lieutenant Lowell Duckett, who retired last year.
This year, as Ramsey became the fifth chief in six years, a D.C. Council special committee investigation showed that 50 to 60 percent of the force had not properly qualified with their firearms.
The Post found that the training deficiency was even higher among officers who fired their weapons on the street – nearly three-quarters of the officers involved in shooting incidents in 1996 had not qualified, according to internal police documents obtained by The Post. In a report released in October, the special committee found "there was no budgetary-related reason for the failure – only poor management." "
I don't know about you fellas - Glock or no Glock, if my a$$ was being put on the line every day at my job, I'd be in the firing range every other day, taking all of the classes, making sure I was physically fit, etc. Sounds like these guys ought to be working at McDonalds or something (no offense).
t-man
t-man
Good Greif....
Training...Training...Training and finally, more training is needed. There is nothing wrong with the weapon system in question. Put your finger on the trigger and press...geee, it fires. Duh.
Show me some reports where Glocks routinely have a mechanical failure where they fire without the trigger being pressed and I'll agree with the weapon system being at fault. But since we don't don't have any evidence of that nature, the cause points to the user. In just about every instance I saw there was a negligence problem.
I think they need to just issue them all revolvers with 20 lb trigger pulls, a key you need to insert to unlock the hammer, and leave the next cylinder empty just in case you really didn't want to shoot. That way it only falls on an empty chamber instead of an oops! Ohhh..and don't forget little red caps to put on the muzzle end to remind them of which way it is pointed.
And finally...if you have a ND you have to carry a Daisy Red Ryder on patrol for the next 6 months.
Good Shooting
RED
Training...Training...Training and finally, more training is needed. There is nothing wrong with the weapon system in question. Put your finger on the trigger and press...geee, it fires. Duh.
Show me some reports where Glocks routinely have a mechanical failure where they fire without the trigger being pressed and I'll agree with the weapon system being at fault. But since we don't don't have any evidence of that nature, the cause points to the user. In just about every instance I saw there was a negligence problem.
I think they need to just issue them all revolvers with 20 lb trigger pulls, a key you need to insert to unlock the hammer, and leave the next cylinder empty just in case you really didn't want to shoot. That way it only falls on an empty chamber instead of an oops! Ohhh..and don't forget little red caps to put on the muzzle end to remind them of which way it is pointed.
And finally...if you have a ND you have to carry a Daisy Red Ryder on patrol for the next 6 months.
Good Shooting
RED
Pardon my ignorance but I have only shot a Glock on one occaision a number of years ago. I don't remember what the trigger pull was like. I only remember that I was favorably impressed by the gun overall. Is the trigger on a Glocks really light?
How many pounds does it take to make a Glock do what it is supposed to?
How many pounds does it take to make a Glock do what it is supposed to?
On the three with standard triggers I have, the trigger pull on my RCBS trigger pull gauge reads between 5.5-6.0#, and the forth Glock with the 3.5# connector is about 4.5#. I've checked the gauge with weights, and it's correct. I'll have to join the chorus and say there's nothing wrong with the Glock in properly trained hands. If they're not going to train with it, I second the idea of issuing them Red Rider BB guns. After all, DC has a total gun ban, so how dangerous can it be?
flinch_of_gt
New member
Glocks require 5.5lbs of pressure and approximately .5" of trigger pull to fire a round. It has been alternately described as a long single action trigger, or a light double action trigger.
Technically, it's a DAO, as the trigger pull cocks the striker.
Technically, it's a DAO, as the trigger pull cocks the striker.
warhammer357
Moderator
On the other hand.....
>>>I think they need to just issue them all revolvers with 20 lb trigger pulls, a key you need to insert to unlock the hammer, and leave the next cylinder empty just in case you really didn't want to shoot. That way it only falls on an empty chamber instead of an oops! Ohhh..and don't forget little red caps to put on the muzzle end to remind them of which way it is pointed.<<<
But you have to remember, these are civil servants we are dealing with. Even with all the street cop mods you mention on a wheelgun, I would bet money there will STILL be some AD's. I once worked for a private security agency that mandated an empty round under the hammer and the next cylinder chamber empty and they still had AD problems too.
You need to look at this post in a more positive way. It's good ammo for the next time some gun grabber tries to convince you that just because a guy wears a badge and a uniform he is automatically a safer person to put a gun into the hands of.
As for firing when the trigger goes off, the article doesn't mention it in Washington, but despite what some enthusiasts will say, the early G-17 did have a couple of documented LE cases where it slam fired (on the range). Remember when the company modified the parts? Thats a fact, not "an internet roumour."
I was at the HK forums today and noticed that HK enthusiasts are willing to admit that occassionally things happen with the USP which is generally thought of to be a good gun design. Whenevever somebody posts about a Glock mishap, be it an AD or a split barrell with factory ammo, the Glockaholics start screaming "Internet Rumour."
I have yet to hear a Sig buff claim the slides locking open on FBI guns was just an Internet Rumour. Or a beretta buff saying the same thing about cracked slides. Or for that matter, S&W buffs on the 1076 failing to fire...
Like I said, I never had any problems with my G-17 when I carried it. But I was always aware that it had a light trigger with no thumb safety and treated it like a venoumous pet rattlesnake. It scares me to see some people treating their Glocks (and other guns) like pet bunnies. That shows a severe case of lack of awareness.
Of course even the standard 1911 can slam fire if the firing pin channel gets dirty, which a buddy of mine found out about not too long ago.
>>>I think they need to just issue them all revolvers with 20 lb trigger pulls, a key you need to insert to unlock the hammer, and leave the next cylinder empty just in case you really didn't want to shoot. That way it only falls on an empty chamber instead of an oops! Ohhh..and don't forget little red caps to put on the muzzle end to remind them of which way it is pointed.<<<
But you have to remember, these are civil servants we are dealing with. Even with all the street cop mods you mention on a wheelgun, I would bet money there will STILL be some AD's. I once worked for a private security agency that mandated an empty round under the hammer and the next cylinder chamber empty and they still had AD problems too.
You need to look at this post in a more positive way. It's good ammo for the next time some gun grabber tries to convince you that just because a guy wears a badge and a uniform he is automatically a safer person to put a gun into the hands of.
As for firing when the trigger goes off, the article doesn't mention it in Washington, but despite what some enthusiasts will say, the early G-17 did have a couple of documented LE cases where it slam fired (on the range). Remember when the company modified the parts? Thats a fact, not "an internet roumour."
I was at the HK forums today and noticed that HK enthusiasts are willing to admit that occassionally things happen with the USP which is generally thought of to be a good gun design. Whenevever somebody posts about a Glock mishap, be it an AD or a split barrell with factory ammo, the Glockaholics start screaming "Internet Rumour."
I have yet to hear a Sig buff claim the slides locking open on FBI guns was just an Internet Rumour. Or a beretta buff saying the same thing about cracked slides. Or for that matter, S&W buffs on the 1076 failing to fire...
Like I said, I never had any problems with my G-17 when I carried it. But I was always aware that it had a light trigger with no thumb safety and treated it like a venoumous pet rattlesnake. It scares me to see some people treating their Glocks (and other guns) like pet bunnies. That shows a severe case of lack of awareness.
Of course even the standard 1911 can slam fire if the firing pin channel gets dirty, which a buddy of mine found out about not too long ago.
Mike Irwin
Staff
If you're relying on the Post's series, I believe that it was written in 1997.
They may just not have reported on any more since that time...
They may just not have reported on any more since that time...