DC pays through the nose for AD's

warhammer357

Moderator
Anybody else seen this?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-11/18/070l-111898-idx.html
An article about how much AD's with the Glock are costing the DC police in lawsuits?Hmmmm.....I could swear about a month ago somebody claimed the Glock was not prone to an AD on some postings.....Oh well, chalk it up to another INTERNET RUMOUR.


Armed and Unready
City Pays for Failure to Train Officers With Sophisticated Weapon
Fourth of five articles




In the 10 years since D.C. police adopted the Glock 9mm to combat the growing firepower of drug dealers, there have been more than 120 accidental discharges of the handgun.

In an extraordinary sequence over the last six months, the District has settled three lawsuits for more than $1.4 million.

Last month, the District paid $250,000 to settle a case brought by the family of an unarmed teenager shot and killed at a traffic roadblock in 1996. The family's attorney argued that the officer's gun had discharged accidentally.

In August, the District paid $375,000 to settle another case in which a D.C. officer accidentally shot and killed an unarmed driver at a traffic stop in 1994.

In June, the District paid almost $800,000 to settle a case from 1994, when a D.C. officer accidentally shot his roommate. The officer had not been to the firing range to train with his weapon in more than two years -- 20 months out of compliance with regulations.

"


The District paid just over $1 million for 4,300 Glocks.

The decision was immediately controversial. Dissenting voices were beginning to be heard about "Glock Perfection." The FBI Academy's firearms training unit tested various semiautomatic handguns and in a 1988 report gave the Glock low marks for safety. The report cited the weapon's "high potential for unintentional shots."






Then-Deputy Chief Rodwell Catoe wrote in an internal memo in 1990, "An unholstered Glock in the 'street load' mode with the trigger safety mechanism pressed is a profoundly dangerous weapon, even in the most ideal conditions."


'It Bit Me'

Almost immediately after D.C. police adopted the Glock, unintentional discharges increased sharply.

The first accident occurred in February 1989 -- less than a month before the guns reached officers on the street. Officer Adam K. Schutz was helping to test and clean the first shipment of guns when he shot himself in the fingers.


Nine months later, the 2-year-old daughter of a D.C. police officer died after accidentally shooting herself in the head with her father's pistol in their Northwest Washington house.

By October 1989, the department had experienced 13 unintentional discharges, double the rate of 1988, the last year with revolvers, according to an internal police memo.


By the early 1990s, the Glock's alleged problems with unintentional shots were the talk of the gun world. Lawsuits against Glock for accidental discharges piled up. The Firearms Litigation Clearinghouse in Washington, an advocacy center against gun violence, currently is monitoring about 60 pending lawsuits against Glock across the country -- 90 percent of all the cases the center is tracking, the center's executive director said.

Despite such publicity, many firearms experts retain deep admiration for the gun.

"Some of the same factors that give it tremendous high-speed hit potential while you're fighting for your life also make it more prone to accidental discharges," Massad Ayoob, a New Hampshire police captain who also runs a firearms instruction institute, said. "You don't want your 16-year-old kid out of driver's ed driving a Corvette Stingray. The Glock is like a Corvette Stingray."






In October 1990, Officer Edward Wise fired accidentally and grazed a man's head during an undercover drug operation at a Southeast Washington housing complex, according to police and court documents. Wise said he had been struggling with the man, Barry Braxton, who was unarmed. Braxton sued and collected a $55,000 settlement from the District.



In May 1991, an officer accidentally shot Kenneth McSwain, 18, in the back when the officer slipped while serving a search warrant in Northeast Washington, court and police documents show. McSwain, who was unarmed and was not charged with any crime, collected a $42,000 settlement.

In August 1991, an officer accidentally shot Stephen Wills in the chest during a drug bust in Southeast Washington, according to court and police documents.
Four officers were wounded with their own guns in 1992. Over and over, officers fired unintentional rounds in the locker rooms at their district stations, or at home while cleaning or unloading their guns, according to police reports.


In March 1993, Officer Lakisha Poge fired a round through her bed while unloading a Glock in her apartment, a police report states. The bullet went through the floor and hit Glowdean Catching in the apartment below. Catching, who was wounded in both legs, has a suit pending against the District.


In January 1994, homicide detective Jeffrey Mayberry shot Officer James Dukes in the stomach at police headquarters.


Four days after Dukes was shot, Officer Juan Martinez Jr. accidentally shot his roommate, Frederick Broomfield, in the groin while awaiting dinner in their apartment, according to police and court records.

Martinez was unloading his Glock in his bedroom when Broomfield came in and asked Martinez how he wanted his chicken cooked. The gun abruptly went off.





In May 1996, Courtney Rusnak, the 3-year-old daughter of Officer George Rusnak, died after she apparently shot herself with her father's Glock in their District Heights home.


In June 1996, Officer Terrence Shepherd shot and killed 18-year-old Eric Anderson as Anderson sat unarmed in his car at a routine traffic roadblock in Southeast Washington. Although Shepherd said he fired because he thought Anderson posed a threat, his captain testified that Shepherd told him at the scene that he had his finger on the trigger and the gun "went off." The shooting, the captain added, appeared to be accidental.
 
AD's not internet rumours

Granted, no weapon can ever be "safe". Even revolvers with 12 pound trigger pulls have been known to have AD's in civil service employees hands. But this is kind of extreme, isnt it?
>>>
Since D.C. police began carrying the Glock handgun in February 1989, accidental discharges have resulted in the following injuries:

Feb. 2, 1989: Officer assigned to armorer's office shoots self in fingers while unloading gun during test-firing.

Sept. 19, 1989: Officer suffers lacerations when bullet ricochets off wall in 7th District station.

Oct. 10, 1989: Two-year-old daughter of D.C. police officer dies after shooting self in head with her father's pistol.

March 25, 1990: Juvenile removes gun from officer's briefcase, shoots self in hand.

May 31, 1990: Officer injures finger and left arm at 2nd District station.

Sept. 21, 1990: Officer shoots self in upper right thigh while unholstering gun.

Oct. 27, 1990: Gun goes off while officer struggles with suspect, striking suspect in back of head.

Nov. 1, 1990: Suspect grabs officer's gun, bullet strikes another officer in chest.

Dec. 5, 1990: Officer shoots self in right foot after husband bumps her while she unloads gun at home.

Feb. 7, 1991: Officer shoots self in stomach after he stumbles while chasing drug suspects.

May 23, 1991: Officer shoots 18-year-old in back after slipping while serving search warrant.

Aug. 8, 1991: Officer shoots unarmed man in chest during drug arrest.

Sept. 6, 1991: Officer shoots self in hand at home.

Jan. 24, 1992: Officer shoots self in thigh while holstering gun.

March 13, 1992: Officer shoots self in hand and knee at home.

April 14, 1992: Officer shoots self in thigh while unloading gun at home.

April 21, 1992: Officer shoots self in hand while holstering gun at home.

March 10, 1993: Officer fires through floor of her apartment, hitting resident below in thigh and ankle.

April 4, 1993: Officer shoots self in forearm while unloading gun at home.

April 20, 1993: Officer shoots another officer in foot after removing magazine when bullet ricochets at 2nd District station.

Aug. 17, 1993: Officer shoots another officer in finger when gun goes off in holster as he exits patrol car.

Jan. 28, 1994: Officer shoots another officer in stomach while handling gun inside department headquarters.

Feb. 2, 1994: Officer shoots roommate in groin inside their apartment.

April 13, 1994: Officer shot in leg when gun goes off during struggle with suspect.

June 17, 1994: Officer shot in stomach by his wife at their home.

July 15, 1994: Officer fatally shoots driver in head during traffic stop.

Nov. 9, 1994: Officer shoots self in the right leg while approaching suspect.

Dec. 6, 1994: Officer shoots suspect in lower back, says

gun went off when suspect grabbed it.

Feb. 6, 1995: Officer shoots suspect accidentally during arrest.

Nov. 15, 1995: Officer shot in buttocks.

May 26, 1996: Three-year-old daughter of officer shoots self in head.

Aug. 21, 1996: Officer shoots girlfriend in stomach after struggle over his gun.

Nov. 7, 1997: Officer shot in upper left thigh.

Source: MPD police reports, Use of Service Weapon Review Board records
 
How does the ND rate for Glock compare with other types? Is this a Glock-bashing thread, a cop-bashing thread, neither or both?
 
Your point?

All of these guns didn't just "go off", they fired when the trigger was pressed by the operator. If they didn't mean to make the gun go "boom", then it is a training issue and not a hardware problem.

If you skimp on training for your officers, a Glock may not be the best duty weapon for them. Something with a heavy trigger pull and a manual safety might work out better for people who habitually have their fingers inside the trigger guard without actually intending to shoot the gun. Again, this is not the fault of the design.

At any rate, a design with as much presence as the Glock will have higher ND rates than other guns, just because there are more Glocks in LEO holsters than any other design at present.
 
I love the article...the guns "went off".

No, they didn't - an idiot pulled the trigger each and every time. If their fingers hadn't been where they shouldn't have been, not one of those discharges would have occurred.

Blame the shooter, not the gun, as that's where the fault lies.
 
I would hazard a guess that the average gun enthusiast in TX or TN has more hands-on expeirence with handguns than a person who grew up in the inner part of the District of Criminals hereafter referred to as DC.

That said, I purport that this is both a handgun and training issue. I further propose that the DC PD would be better served with Beretta 92FS's, Sig 226's or a S&W DA Only.

Glocks are awsome weapons but they need to be in the hands of highly trained and skilled Officers. If this cannot be assured, the Officers and he public are better off if safer handgun designs are employed. Opinions are one thing but the numbers never lie and its patently obvious that the DC PD cannot handle their Glocks.
 
As i mentioned in my recent CZ-100 VS Glock 26 thread,i was shocked at how short and light a Glocks trigger pull is.Its much closer to a single action shot in my opinion.
 
At one point, 50% of new hires on the DCPD had criminal convictions or were under indictment. Could the "quality" of this force have something to do with their problems in firearms use? Maybe they didn't carry with a loaded chamber in their gangsta days.
 
Training? If one of the first things these rocket scientist firearms instructors don't teach their students is to unload the gun before cleaning it, then hopefully they'll have a few AD's themselves.
 
Training Problem

In any tactical pistol class the first thing they teach is never to put your finger on the Glock trigger untill you want to actually discharge the gun. The DC police obviously have terrible gun training class, so now we now why DC has so much crime, terrible cops, and terrible training for them, and they won't go take a class on their own even though their life is on the line.

Of course I'm sure they have some good cops.
 
It's also a "Rules of Engagement" problem.

Police routinely use guns in an offensive manner, pointing them at suspects with their fingers on the trigger before making the decision to fire (to get obedience, not to defend themselves) - a violation of rule 3, and the crime of "brandishing" to us "civilians".
 
I guess it just goes to show that only the police should have guns? No, wait, guns are dangerous--disarm the police now!

It's never the operator; the problem is always the equipment as there is absolutely no reason to obey Rules 1-4. If only we had a magic sword.
 
Operator headspace and timing needs work.

Or as our IT department says, "It's the ID 10 T interface". (If you don't get it, squint, and read it again. Otherwise, you have a bad interface. :D)
 
Guys,
Don't waste your breath trying to educate Warhammer.

I could swear about a month ago somebody claimed the Glock was not prone to an AD on some postings

He is referring to another Glock bashing thread that he started.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110137

Apparently Warhammer357 was abused by a Glock at a young age.
:rolleyes:

As I mentioned in that thread, this board is good for many more things than bashing somebody else's favorite gun.
That is all this guy wants to do.

You know, when I did a search on his name, the only two threads he has started are Glock bashing threads.

'sup with that?

Can you say troll?

Warhammer357, here's a cold hard fact of life;
If you put your finger on the trigger of a loaded gun, it just might go boom.
Doesn't matter what the name of the gun is.
Even D.C. police officers forget this sometimes.
 
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...the District paid $250,000 to settle a case brought by the family of an unarmed teenager shot and killed at a traffic roadblock...
In August, the District paid $375,000 to settle another case in which a D.C. officer accidentally shot and killed an unarmed driver ...
...an officer accidentally shot Kenneth McSwain, 18, in the back ...McSwain, who was unarmed and was not charged with any crime...
Officer Terrence Shepherd shot and killed 18-year-old Eric Anderson as Anderson sat unarmed in his car at a routine traffic roadblock
Notice the common thread? I'd say that there's something OTHER than a mechanical defect at work here, and they're trying to desparately find something other than incompetence - or worse! - to blame it on.

When you point a loaded gun at someone, put your finger on the trigger, and press, it's NOT a defect if the gun fires!

Aaah, it's Washington, D.C. This is the city whose good people knowingly re-elected a crackhead doper as their mayor, so do you think the people below him are any better?

(BTW . . . are traffic roadblocks so common in D.C. that they're considered "routine?")
 
The point

The point is that unlike what some Glock fanatics would have us all believe, the G-17 series of pistols is incredibly unforgiving of routine mishandlin' period.
Notice I was nice enough to point out that the DC police had AD problems with wheelguns too. Nothin' is safer than a wheelgun right?
By the way, check the revolver forum or the 1911 forums where I post more often. Troll may refer to somebody's wife, but It aint me baby.
Anybody who would claim that AD's, slamfires and other routine long-noticecd and realized Glock probllems are just "internet rumours" obviously can't handle the truth.
By the way boys, there is a WORLD of difference in handlin' a gun on the range and handlin' a gun in a deserted warehouse after some creep fired off some rounds at you. You might find yourself going atavistic and completely ignoring rule three. That is one reason why AD's do indeed happen in the field under real life stressful situations in Law Enforcement.
I like the 1911 a lot better than the Glock series, but neither is exactly what I would think of as a good choice in a standard issue LE sidearm. They are, as others have pointed out, tools for the EXPERTS.
A G-17 is indeed to the world of handguns what the Corvette Stingray is to the world of automobiles. I high performance machine. We don't make Corvettes standard patrol cars do we?
 
So, is this a Glock bashing thread, or should this be a thread bashing DC's HORRIBLE lack of officer training in the over the last 15 or so years?

But, here's something funny about Glocks, DC, and training.

I know one of the DC police firearms training officers. Really neat guy. About 3 years ago he blew off/badly mangled the tips of two fingers with his Glock while on the range...

He was brought in to help rectify some of the training problems because he has a long and involved history with firearms.

If he's not immune from a NEGLIGENT discharge, who would be?
 
I don't know about the DC Police, but the Glocks I own never go off unless I pull the trigger. Maybe they should take a training class to learn how to use a gun and be safe at the same time!!!:D
 
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