Darn near tore off my shoulder yesterday,,,
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Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I recall a story from years ago, in Outdoor Life, I believe. The essentials were that a man was hunting elephant with some sort of muzzleloading monstrosity. There was chaos happening of some sort, involving a very unhappy elephant, and when this gentleman attempted to fire his gun it just said "CLICK!". He gave it to his gun handler fellow to have a new cap put on. Well, in the confusion somehow or another the guy COMPLETELY reloaded the gun, added the cap and tossed it back. As I recall, the story indicated that the double charge blast killed the elephant, broke the man's shoulder, knocked him unconscious, shattered the gun stock and slammed him into a small tree, breaking the tree.
Hog Buster
New member
My 12 gauge Model 37 Ithaca weighs 6.9 pounds, loaded. I’ve shot standard slugs thru it many times and it lets you know it, but believe me, the Model 70 in .458 has got it beat in the recoil department.
OkieGentleman
New member
I love to shoot, not be beaten by the gun.
458 American on a enfield action. Only gun I ever passed on shooting. The owner had fired 5 rounds and the knuckles of his right hand was bleeding from the trigger guard hitting them. When he offered to let me shoot it, I passed with a thank you no. I had three uncles on my fathers side, all with a half moon scar in their right eyebrow from the same scoped 300 Mag.
458 American on a enfield action. Only gun I ever passed on shooting. The owner had fired 5 rounds and the knuckles of his right hand was bleeding from the trigger guard hitting them. When he offered to let me shoot it, I passed with a thank you no. I had three uncles on my fathers side, all with a half moon scar in their right eyebrow from the same scoped 300 Mag.
armsmaster270
New member
Like this .577 t-Rex click on picture to play
warbirdlover
New member
There was a recent article in some rifle magazine where the author shot all the big African double rifles, .600 nitro etc. The author related stories about people's eyeballs popping out of the socket, broken shoulders etc etc... Not me. 
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I've read of hunters suffering broken shoulders from firing the .470 Nitro. Maybe some rifles were lighter than others."
"The author related stories about people's eyeballs popping out of the socket, broken shoulders etc etc..."
I'd have to say bogus, unless someone had a pre-existing medical condition.
There have been TONS of stories circulating for years about how horrible these guns are to shoot. I really think they all got started as a way of making "BIG MEN!!!" out of those who shot guns like these and 'survived'.
The .470 is a little more powerful than the .458 Win. Mag. It was one of quite a few cartridges for double rifles that were in the same power range - .450 Nitro, .465 Nitro, .476 Nitro, etc. None of them had a particularly ferocious reputation.
The British must have been made of far tougher stuff because they never reported things like this.
Granted, recoil on these rifles is STOUT. But, given the weight of these guns, generally 14 pounds and up, and the fact that professional hunters went to great lengths to make sure that they were well fitted, recoil was not unmanageable.
Hell, Peter Capstick shot a .470 during much of his African career, and he never reported broken shoulders, popped eyeballs, or any such nonsense.
Well, there IS the story of Sir Samuel Baker inadvertently firing both of Baby's barrels at the same time.
His skull popped out of his head through his nostrils, and rolled around on the ground for awhile. One of his native gun bearers had to retrieve it (apparently he had to threaten to fire them to make sure that an impromptu soccer game didn't break out) and stuff it back into the skin through the nose.
He said it was very peculiar seeing himself standing about 5 yards away, holding his smoking rifle, and his now shapeless head falling down over his chest.
What's that Ithaca weigh, anyway?"
About 6.5 pounds.
"The author related stories about people's eyeballs popping out of the socket, broken shoulders etc etc..."
I'd have to say bogus, unless someone had a pre-existing medical condition.
There have been TONS of stories circulating for years about how horrible these guns are to shoot. I really think they all got started as a way of making "BIG MEN!!!" out of those who shot guns like these and 'survived'.
The .470 is a little more powerful than the .458 Win. Mag. It was one of quite a few cartridges for double rifles that were in the same power range - .450 Nitro, .465 Nitro, .476 Nitro, etc. None of them had a particularly ferocious reputation.
The British must have been made of far tougher stuff because they never reported things like this.
Granted, recoil on these rifles is STOUT. But, given the weight of these guns, generally 14 pounds and up, and the fact that professional hunters went to great lengths to make sure that they were well fitted, recoil was not unmanageable.
Hell, Peter Capstick shot a .470 during much of his African career, and he never reported broken shoulders, popped eyeballs, or any such nonsense.
Well, there IS the story of Sir Samuel Baker inadvertently firing both of Baby's barrels at the same time.
His skull popped out of his head through his nostrils, and rolled around on the ground for awhile. One of his native gun bearers had to retrieve it (apparently he had to threaten to fire them to make sure that an impromptu soccer game didn't break out) and stuff it back into the skin through the nose.
He said it was very peculiar seeing himself standing about 5 yards away, holding his smoking rifle, and his now shapeless head falling down over his chest.
What's that Ithaca weigh, anyway?"
About 6.5 pounds.
In the video above, I see at least two different rifles. It's impossible to verify what cartridges those rifles are chambered in, though it's obviously quite stout. But you can see in just about every case that the shooter isn't set up properly, doesn't have the rifle locked in to his shoulder, and many don't even have a solid grip on the rifle. They set themselves up for disaster. Frankly, the place renting the gun out is not doing these gentlemen any favors by handing them a rifle they aren't prepared to fire.
black mamba
New member
The whole purpose of a cartridge like this is one-upmanship and WOW factor. The makers of the video WANTED the shooters to drop the rifles. Even in their day, the .577 and .600 Nitros were thought of as "specialty" weapons, really unnecessary for 98% of all hunting. The T-Rex is half again as powerful as these!
When the .450 3-1/4" NE came out it revolutionized dangerous game hunting. It replaced 14+ pound black powder weapons which had horrendous recoil, and in 10.5-11 pound rifles was considered handy, easy to shoot, and more deadly than the previous generation.
As to the Brits handling recoil-- I don't think I've ever seen or even heard of a colonial hunter firing a heavy rifle off a bench. They shot them standing, which is the best way to handle recoil in any rifle.
When the .450 3-1/4" NE came out it revolutionized dangerous game hunting. It replaced 14+ pound black powder weapons which had horrendous recoil, and in 10.5-11 pound rifles was considered handy, easy to shoot, and more deadly than the previous generation.
As to the Brits handling recoil-- I don't think I've ever seen or even heard of a colonial hunter firing a heavy rifle off a bench. They shot them standing, which is the best way to handle recoil in any rifle.
LOL, Irwin! I was almost 13 when I shot Uncle Roy's old 458 and I can recall shooting the mag dry on a couple of occasions. Roy was not one to reload anything on the light side; he had put a decent pad on the rifle and he may have engaged in the then-popular practice of adding weight to the stock.
I might have weighed 140 pounds at the time. Seems like it took about three shots for it to stop being fun, but what great fun those first two were! Not to mention that I had finally reached the stage where I was being accepted among the men in the family who were combat vets, cops, adventurers of one sort or another or just the backbone that made the nation stand TALL.
Oddly, none of our skulls popped out through our nostrils but if it did, we'd have calmed our nerves with a sip of Old Stumpblower and a cigar. I don't think any of them knew what this 'soccer' thing was, though
I might have weighed 140 pounds at the time. Seems like it took about three shots for it to stop being fun, but what great fun those first two were! Not to mention that I had finally reached the stage where I was being accepted among the men in the family who were combat vets, cops, adventurers of one sort or another or just the backbone that made the nation stand TALL.
Oddly, none of our skulls popped out through our nostrils but if it did, we'd have calmed our nerves with a sip of Old Stumpblower and a cigar. I don't think any of them knew what this 'soccer' thing was, though
FrankenMauser
New member
It's not the rifle or the cartridge. It's the idiot pulling the trigger. (No offense intended.)
When you have multiple shooters being injured by the same weapon.... something is wrong. In this case, my guess would be one (or more) of the following:
1. Stock shape. If the stock is "all wrong" for the rifle, it can set the shooter up for scope bite.
2. Scope mounting. Set the eye relief wrong, and have the scope back too far? Yea... it's gonna give you a little 'peck' on the forehead, when you hit the bang switch.
3. Idiots. If you don't know how to hold a rifle, it quickly becomes apparent with magnums and big bores. Just because you're the "crack shot" in your family, with a .22... doesn't mean you actually have good technique.
You don't need to be big. You don't need to be tough. You don't need to be strong. To successfully shoot one of the big bores, you just have to have good technique.
I verified this for myself during the "learning curve" I went through, while shooting all of the rifles/cartridge listed in my previous post (and more). I made some mistakes that were violently
pointed out by the rifles. The only evidence you may find today, is a small scar from a .416 Rigby scope bite. It was my fault, and I knew it as soon as I touched the trigger. The biggest thing you can learn from the "big boys", is how to shoot the smaller stuff even better.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"When the .450 3-1/4" NE came out it revolutionized dangerous game hunting. It replaced 14+ pound black powder weapons which had horrendous recoil, and in 10.5-11 pound rifles was considered handy, easy to shoot, and more deadly than the previous generation."
Oddly enough, it took the British gunmaking community a fairly long time to figure out that the new small-bore guns firing cordite didn't need to be nearly as heavy as the old 2 and 4 bore black powder guns.
It's not uncommon to see an early .450 weighing in at 15 pounds or more.
I've also seen it written several places that had .450 caliber bullets and cases never been banned in India and the Sudan, you'd never had seen much other than the .450 Rigby or the .450 H&H because they were seen to be so incredibly effective.
The .470 Nitro was introduced in direct response to that ban.
Oddly enough, it took the British gunmaking community a fairly long time to figure out that the new small-bore guns firing cordite didn't need to be nearly as heavy as the old 2 and 4 bore black powder guns.
It's not uncommon to see an early .450 weighing in at 15 pounds or more.
I've also seen it written several places that had .450 caliber bullets and cases never been banned in India and the Sudan, you'd never had seen much other than the .450 Rigby or the .450 H&H because they were seen to be so incredibly effective.
The .470 Nitro was introduced in direct response to that ban.
black mamba
New member
Right on, Mike. The ban on .450 caliber is what spawned the 500/465, the .470, the .475, etc. Comparisons between those cartridges is like comparing the .338/06 to the .35 Whelen today. What one gives up in velocity, the other one gives up in BC, given the same pressure and bullet weight. Penetration, and therefore killing power, is practically speaking, identical.
Major Dave (retired)
New member
How about the 175mm gun?
We are talking heavy field artillery, of course.
Fires a 147 lb boat tail spire point bullet, with a maximum charge of 52 lbs of powder!
Muzzle velocity exceeds Mach one! (Resulting in what sounds like two shots - muzzle blast followed by sonic boom - with each shot).
Three crew members stay on the 32 ton chasis when each shot is fired. Recoil is absorbed throughout your WHOLE body!
Ah, Good times - great memories!
I'm just saying.
We are talking heavy field artillery, of course.
Fires a 147 lb boat tail spire point bullet, with a maximum charge of 52 lbs of powder!
Muzzle velocity exceeds Mach one! (Resulting in what sounds like two shots - muzzle blast followed by sonic boom - with each shot).
Three crew members stay on the 32 ton chasis when each shot is fired. Recoil is absorbed throughout your WHOLE body!
Ah, Good times - great memories!
I'm just saying.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"How about the 175mm gun?"
Shoulder fired?
No?
Then not germane to the conversation.
As for muzzle velocity, Mach 1 is only about 1,116 feet per second, which in today's world isn't particularly fast for a bullet.
Many of the British African cartridges from 100 years ago would easily churn that out, and in some cases, close to Mach 2 depending on the load and bullet combination.
Hell, there are a couple of modern small bore cartridges that clip along at close to mach 3.5.
Shoulder fired?
No?
Then not germane to the conversation.
As for muzzle velocity, Mach 1 is only about 1,116 feet per second, which in today's world isn't particularly fast for a bullet.
Many of the British African cartridges from 100 years ago would easily churn that out, and in some cases, close to Mach 2 depending on the load and bullet combination.
Hell, there are a couple of modern small bore cartridges that clip along at close to mach 3.5.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Chrony verified 4,435 fps (Mach 3.97) from a 35gr Nosler out of a 24" barreled 22-250.
Don't hurt the shoulder either.
(and it's not a max load
)I shot a Weatherby Mark V in .460 magnum today and I must say that although it had a kick, it wasn't bruttle although it was a little more punchy than my Winchester M70 in 300 Win Mag. I actually like it and if money wasn't an issue, (it is), I would buy one. I also shot my H&R 20 gauge today with Remington Slugs. That was worse to the shoulder than the Weatherby.