The Great Mahoo
New member
Out of curiosity, can anyone recommend a good, true DAO auto?
DAO woes
- Thread starter bonefamily
- Start date
bonefamily
New member
Great shooting, AK103K! I hope to be as good of a shot without taking too much time. I'm sure that accuracy comes with a good amount of time and good practice.
@ Robk - thanks for the words. Yes, I am a novice. The wife and I just started shooting this past fall. It started with the wife wanting to get her CCW as I work third shift and it is just her and the kiddies at home alone at night. At first it was just going to be a home defense weapon, but there are also times she is out and about with just her and the kids and has felt an easy target at times - shopping, parking lots, malls, etc., so decided to go for the carry. She asked if I would take the course with her and I without hesitiation agreed as it is something I have been considering for a long time. I always thought she was anti gun but to my surprise she has always been for it (go figure after 17 years of marriage to keep learning new things). So, with this in mind our search starting with smaller, concealable weapons. As directed by a couple of our LGS', they recommended handguns in the 3" barrel range. We did tell them that we were new shooters, but they still felt that a 3" barrel was fine to begin with as that is what they sell the most of to new shooters. With us not knowing any other, we went along with what was recommended. The wife's first pistol was a Hi Point C9 9mm. That went back to the shop even before firing as she could not muscle enough to rack the slide. She exchanged that for a Phoenix Arms HP22A .22lr which she could charge fine. She still has that one and loves to shoot it. To date it has fed anything she will put in it, and that has been whatever ammunition we have found. From there she picked up a little Taurus PLY-25 .25 auto. That did not go well with her because she hated the DAO trigger. We traded that in on what she has now, her Bersa Thunder 380. She likes that one very much and is a keeper in her words.
When I was selecting my pistol, I first looked at the Kel Tec PF-9 - as was also recommended by the LGS owner. I asked around on the forums and found it was a little snappy shooter. I decided to pass on it and went with it's little brother, the P-32 (you know, thinking that if concealabilty has a factor - the smaller the better. However, I quickly learned that the smaller is not always the better. The P-32 shoots very nice in terms of recoil, but as you stated the sights are very close together and are quite minimal. I am ok with it at very close range (which I believe is what the gun was meant for) but anything longer than 10ft... forgetaboutit. So, I went back and also picked up the PF-9. I was more accurate with it but it was indeed a snappy shooter. However, I did like the small but not too small size of it so started looking around at other smaller 9mm's that were easier in the felt recoil area. This lead me to the SCCY CPX-2. I can say that it is easier to shoot in terms of felt recoil, the muzzle flip is not as bad IMO, the sights are a bit easier to see, and it fills the hand nicer. I like the pistol quite well, just need to get my DAO trigger skills up to par.
@ h2otoo - thanks for the words and good to see a familiar name
Yes, the CPX-2 was meant for a carry weapon and I'm sure I will get the trigger down. I just hope I do so before the March 23rd CCW class. I don't know the requirements in other states for qualification, but in Ohio is it 21 ft.
@ Robk - thanks for the words. Yes, I am a novice. The wife and I just started shooting this past fall. It started with the wife wanting to get her CCW as I work third shift and it is just her and the kiddies at home alone at night. At first it was just going to be a home defense weapon, but there are also times she is out and about with just her and the kids and has felt an easy target at times - shopping, parking lots, malls, etc., so decided to go for the carry. She asked if I would take the course with her and I without hesitiation agreed as it is something I have been considering for a long time. I always thought she was anti gun but to my surprise she has always been for it (go figure after 17 years of marriage to keep learning new things). So, with this in mind our search starting with smaller, concealable weapons. As directed by a couple of our LGS', they recommended handguns in the 3" barrel range. We did tell them that we were new shooters, but they still felt that a 3" barrel was fine to begin with as that is what they sell the most of to new shooters. With us not knowing any other, we went along with what was recommended. The wife's first pistol was a Hi Point C9 9mm. That went back to the shop even before firing as she could not muscle enough to rack the slide. She exchanged that for a Phoenix Arms HP22A .22lr which she could charge fine. She still has that one and loves to shoot it. To date it has fed anything she will put in it, and that has been whatever ammunition we have found. From there she picked up a little Taurus PLY-25 .25 auto. That did not go well with her because she hated the DAO trigger. We traded that in on what she has now, her Bersa Thunder 380. She likes that one very much and is a keeper in her words.
When I was selecting my pistol, I first looked at the Kel Tec PF-9 - as was also recommended by the LGS owner. I asked around on the forums and found it was a little snappy shooter. I decided to pass on it and went with it's little brother, the P-32 (you know, thinking that if concealabilty has a factor - the smaller the better. However, I quickly learned that the smaller is not always the better. The P-32 shoots very nice in terms of recoil, but as you stated the sights are very close together and are quite minimal. I am ok with it at very close range (which I believe is what the gun was meant for) but anything longer than 10ft... forgetaboutit. So, I went back and also picked up the PF-9. I was more accurate with it but it was indeed a snappy shooter. However, I did like the small but not too small size of it so started looking around at other smaller 9mm's that were easier in the felt recoil area. This lead me to the SCCY CPX-2. I can say that it is easier to shoot in terms of felt recoil, the muzzle flip is not as bad IMO, the sights are a bit easier to see, and it fills the hand nicer. I like the pistol quite well, just need to get my DAO trigger skills up to par.
@ h2otoo - thanks for the words and good to see a familiar name
Yes, the CPX-2 was meant for a carry weapon and I'm sure I will get the trigger down. I just hope I do so before the March 23rd CCW class. I don't know the requirements in other states for qualification, but in Ohio is it 21 ft.
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I had a SIG P250 that had a very nice DAO trigger. A lot of people dont seem to like it, but once you get used to it, its very easy to shoot well with. Its trigger draw is a little long, but light and buttery smooth. I had an early one, and next to my P245, that was factory converted to DAO (not DAK), it was the next nicest DA SIG trigger I ever had.
I dont know if SIG is still doing the true DAO triggers as an aftermarket thing, but that P245's trigger was something to marvel at.
Lots of live practice and dry fire.
Dry fire is a lot more important than you might think too.
If you take your time, focus on the basics, practice right, and dont try to rush things, it will go quicker. Start close (read that "real close" at first) and work your way back as you get better. Its a lot less frustrating that way.
bonefamily
New member
Thanks for the tips and all the help, AK!
Yes the Sig P250 has a nice DA trigger. So do the Kahrs. I once shot a Berretta 92 that had been somehow converted into DAO, and it was nice.
My wife has an LC9, and the trigger pull is long, but smooth and light. By the time it breaks, the trigger is right up against the grip frame. I can see how that would bother some people.
My wife has an LC9, and the trigger pull is long, but smooth and light. By the time it breaks, the trigger is right up against the grip frame. I can see how that would bother some people.
bonefamily
New member
Ok, first dry fire session today and I was surprised by the results. First, the wife and I dedicated a place where we would do our dry fire practice. We live in a bi-level and the area we dedicated, the other side of the wall is underground. I was sure to clear my pistol and left the magazine and all ammo locked in the safe.
What surprised me was that I am not pulling the shots when the trigger breaks. I intended to fire as slow as I could and watch as carefully as I could and I was staying on target througout the entire tigger pull. I watched my finger once and it is going straight back, not angled. Though this seemed like good news, I am now afraid of what I really didn't want to know.... could I be flinching during live fire?
What surprised me was that I am not pulling the shots when the trigger breaks. I intended to fire as slow as I could and watch as carefully as I could and I was staying on target througout the entire tigger pull. I watched my finger once and it is going straight back, not angled. Though this seemed like good news, I am now afraid of what I really didn't want to know.... could I be flinching during live fire?
Could be. Anticipation of the shot isnt uncommon, even with people who have been shooting a long time. You also want to follow through, and hold that sight picture through the hammer fall, and with a live round, through the cycle, so youre right back to a sight picture when its complete.
One thing you can try if you think your are doing it, is while youre shooting, revert to "dry fire mode" and mentally tell yourself youre dry firing, and all that will happen when the shot breaks, is the hammer will fall in a click and youll be holding the sight picture on target, even after the fall, calling your shot. Concentrate on a perfect sight alignment and stroke or squeeze the trigger. Think of it as psyching yourself out.
One thing you can try if you think your are doing it, is while youre shooting, revert to "dry fire mode" and mentally tell yourself youre dry firing, and all that will happen when the shot breaks, is the hammer will fall in a click and youll be holding the sight picture on target, even after the fall, calling your shot. Concentrate on a perfect sight alignment and stroke or squeeze the trigger. Think of it as psyching yourself out.
bonefamily
New member
Thanks, AK - I'll try that...
Another variable missed...
What about the very accuracy of the pistols themselves?
All this fetish about the trigger don't mean anything if the rest of the firearm is incapable of keeping its shots inside of 6 inches at 25 yards.
That's the performance level of the Kel-Tec I've dealt with. Some loads do 8-10 inches.
Give me a snub-nose S&W .38 Special or .357 revolver and I'll show you four inches or less, standing on my hind legs and arms unsupported, at a full 25 yards.
To reverse a common cliche here in the Gunny world, maybe YOU *are* more accurate that those two guns.
What about the very accuracy of the pistols themselves?
All this fetish about the trigger don't mean anything if the rest of the firearm is incapable of keeping its shots inside of 6 inches at 25 yards.
That's the performance level of the Kel-Tec I've dealt with. Some loads do 8-10 inches.
Give me a snub-nose S&W .38 Special or .357 revolver and I'll show you four inches or less, standing on my hind legs and arms unsupported, at a full 25 yards.
To reverse a common cliche here in the Gunny world, maybe YOU *are* more accurate that those two guns.
bonefamily
New member
As new a shooter that I am, I highly doubt it
Personally I find DA, either autoloader, or revolver, a whole lot safer than SA autoloaders. I have seen numerous LEOs have an accidental discharge during three gun matches at my club. Although the discharge could be called a 'Double tap' by some, I have seen the dirt behind the target kick up and I doubt ther shooter was pleased at the need to do an extra reload.
Different strokes for different folks. There are enough choices to please just about everybody. I personally like DA revolvers. I have a S&W 3913 which is DA on the first shot. This is not my first choice, but I do use it as a backup.
It may take a little more practice, but then this is not for Bullseye competition. At bad breath distances DA can easily find all shots in the black.
Practice with what you prefer.
Different strokes for different folks. There are enough choices to please just about everybody. I personally like DA revolvers. I have a S&W 3913 which is DA on the first shot. This is not my first choice, but I do use it as a backup.
It may take a little more practice, but then this is not for Bullseye competition. At bad breath distances DA can easily find all shots in the black.
Practice with what you prefer.
In my view, it is not about the specific trigger design. It's about training.....and what one becomes accustomed to, period. A lousy quality trigger is a lousy quality trigger. But, that is NOT dictated by whether it is DAO, or SAO, or DA/SA.
As for me, I shoot my DAO just as well as any other design - as long as I am "in the groove" with it. By that, I mean, as long as I have not skipped a few weeks of shooting with it. If I stay current and shoot DAO a lot, then no problem. The same mostly holds true with my DA/SA pistols - if I stay current, then no problem - if not, then I get "rusty".
One difficulty I do have however, is in switching back and forth between DAO and DA/SA. That DOES give me problems, at least until I get "back in the groove". I haven't quite figured out a solution for that, though. The obvious solution is to specialize - go exclusively with one design or another. In future, I probably will do that, as I think I have too many pistols now (and spreading myself between them is affecting my training). But, I haven't decided which way to jump. It could be either DAO or DA/SA.
As for me, I shoot my DAO just as well as any other design - as long as I am "in the groove" with it. By that, I mean, as long as I have not skipped a few weeks of shooting with it. If I stay current and shoot DAO a lot, then no problem. The same mostly holds true with my DA/SA pistols - if I stay current, then no problem - if not, then I get "rusty".
One difficulty I do have however, is in switching back and forth between DAO and DA/SA. That DOES give me problems, at least until I get "back in the groove". I haven't quite figured out a solution for that, though. The obvious solution is to specialize - go exclusively with one design or another. In future, I probably will do that, as I think I have too many pistols now (and spreading myself between them is affecting my training). But, I haven't decided which way to jump. It could be either DAO or DA/SA.
bonefamily
New member
Thanks for the replies and tips. I find that when I move the trigger faster is when I pull more. I know I need much practice with them (DAO), but I find myself to be more accurate with a slower moving pull. Of course this does not help much in SD situation, but I need to lerarn to walk before I can run with that DAO trigger, right?
bonefamily said:
Here's a tip: Dry fire to a metronome. If you don't have one, use the link below. A metronome sets a tempo you can follow, so you can pull smoothly without yanking. Don't set too high a tempo, lest you practice yanking. Set one that you can smoothly pull, then increase the tempo bit by bit (wouldn't that be beat by beat?
). Once you've improved your pull, incorporate keeping a good sight picture through the pull. Again, though, only go as fast as you can see.http://www.metronomeonline.com/
bonefamily
New member
That sounds like a good tip and practice, MrBorland - thanks. Being a musician for more than 30 years, I do indeed own a few metronomes
What tempo do you recommend starting with?
What tempo do you recommend starting with?
bonefamily said:
Excellent!
Think of your trigger as a musical instrument, and dry firing to a metronome will likely be very helpful. Imagine a new student playing a simple scale while keeping a very irregular rhythm. Their teacher would likely pull their hair out, then get them to keep constant - going up and coming down. So it is with a DAO trigger - constant pull to the end, same constant return to the end, with smooth non-breaking transitions between.
Try starting off at 50bpm. At first, just hold the pistol with 2 hands at chest level while doing your "scales". Just to get a feel for a smooth even tempo. There's absolutely no rush here. If it takes 5 minutes, great. If it takes a week, no worries. At some point when you feel ready, go to 60bpm, then 70 & 80. At some point, start aiming the pistol, too: Get a good sight picture and watch the front sight while doing your scales. You may have to go back down at this point if you notice your front sight dancing around.
BTW, I've never seen a metronome recommended before - it's something I came up with while doing some of my own dry firing, so you won't likely find much about it by Googling. Nonetheless, it's helped me a bunch.
peacefulgary
New member
I hate a heavy trigger pull.
Heavy trigger pulls were created only as a safety measure, not as an enhancement to more accurate shooting.
This why heavy triggers are not typically found on rifles.
I think a better safety measure is to keep your finger off the trigger till the target is in your sights and you are prepared to shoot.
Heavy trigger pulls were created only as a safety measure, not as an enhancement to more accurate shooting.
This why heavy triggers are not typically found on rifles.
I think a better safety measure is to keep your finger off the trigger till the target is in your sights and you are prepared to shoot.
redhologram
New member
Your metronome idea is good. It's the whole rhythm concept in your head. I don't use a metronome but I do go through sort of a standard check list in my head as I'm drawing and setting up to get my shot off. It runs quickly through my head as I am doing it but to a specific rhythm that I almost keep a beat too.
It keeps me focused and where I don't stop and dwell on any particular thing.
It keeps me focused and where I don't stop and dwell on any particular thing.