DAO woes

[bonefamily]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone! I appreciate the help.

I guess my main concern with the DAO is if it ever comes time that I will need to use in self defense situations. I mean, will the repetitive training with the DAO become like muscle memory? I know I'm pulling my shots now so I am hoping with training that it will become second to none and I wont have to force myself. I would not like to be in the situation and be missing my target. I'm sure under severe stress, that alone will be enough to worry about and not the trigger - though I'm sure in such a situation the trigger pull will not even be on my mind, rather than to just focus and pull.

In regards to the pistol in topic, the trigger is long and a bit heavy (that is, I guess - I really don't know if 9 lbs is heavy or not for a DAO S/A), but it is very smooth. The wife's Bersa Thunder 380 in DA for the first shot is very gritty. She was getting to the point of just cocking the hammer back for the first shot after mag reloads and using the slide release as she said she didn't like the first long gritty pull. The SCCY is not at all like that, it is very smooth, IMO.

 

[AK103K]

I mean, will the repetitive training with the DAO become like muscle memory?

Yes. The more you practice and dry fire, the less youll notice the trigger.

Just concentrate on your sight alignment as you stroke through the trigger and it will get easier as you go, and your rounds will go where you/the gun were looking.

Also try to "call" your shots as they break, this will emphasize your focus on sight alignment and knowing where the round was going when the gun went off.

Dont let the weight bother you. Heavy and clean isnt near a distraction as much as gritty and crunchy, no matter the weight.

 

[Jayster]

I too have a Kahr. The PM9. It has a mighty smooth trigger.

 

[Jimboski]

I like both actions, really enjoying my Glock 26 action over my Beretta 96d's tho'. Still both great, had/sold a Taurus 617 liked it too, had to sell it during a personal recession tho'. Next revolver I'd like to get a Ruger or S&W in .357mag. Just a dream right now...

 

[Rmart30]

Reason I asked if there was a stipulation on what you can qualify with, can ya borrow another firearm from a buddy to qualify with and later on pick ya up something you like better trigger wise?

the 5946 was my only full size semi auto for almost 20 years because DAO guns sorta faded away without many models offered and I wasnt going to buy a semi auto with a manual safety.
But then I was introduced to the SA XD/XDM lineup .... felt great in my hand, no safety to flip off and a consistent trigger pull every time. I have well over 10k thru my XDM 9 and its been trouble free.

 

[Nathan]

Something I have to ask of the "I hate DAO, give me a DA/SA crowd..."....Where does your first shot go?

I like DAO and striker fired. In that type, I like XD best, DAO S&W revolver 2nd, but I do fine with my Glock, and Kahr too.

It is really all about learning how to break the shot when the sights are aligned. First you must master when the trigger will break, then controlling that happening when the sights are on target. With practice, it is pretty subconcious.

Really learn a triggers break point first, then practice moving the gun to the POA as it breaks.

Even if you never use a DAO or DA gun again, this skill could unlock hidden SA skills.

 

[serf 'rett]

While equipment makes a difference, proper practice has a much larger impact. A long smooth pull has to be learned, but once mastered, you can do well with most any firearm - provided you become competent in the other parts of marksmanship – sight alignment, grip, stance, breath control, front sight focus, etc.

A friend got a new 40S&W Sigma and was complaining that it didn’t seem to shoot very well. While he has hunted for years, he hasn’t owned a pistol. When with him to the range a couple of weeks later and watch him shoot several 12-15 inch groups from 15 feet. He was wondering if there was a problem with the pistol and asked me to shoot it. This particular pistol had a horrendous trigger; however, I easily shot a 4 inch group from 15 yards (three times the distance he was shooting from) the first time I shot the Sigma. Even with the poor trigger, I thought the pistol had some good potential for the investment.

The main difference between our groups wasn’t due to the equipment, but to the experience.

 

[bonefamily]

Great replies and experiences, thank you to all!

Also try to "call" your shots as they break, this will emphasize your focus on sight alignment and knowing where the round was going when the gun went off.

I don't quite understand this - could you please explain more? Thanks.

Reason I asked if there was a stipulation on what you can qualify with, can ya borrow another firearm from a buddy to qualify with and later on pick ya up something you like better trigger wise?

I thought this is why you asked. I could do that - the place where we are taking our CCW in March does offer a rental pistol for their class. They offer the Smith & Wesson 22A 22 lr. The thing is, I really like the idea of the DAO with no manual safety and I would like to carry this type. I would much rather prefer to qualify with what I plan to carry. I know I can do it, just needing some tips on how to get there

It is really all about learning how to break the shot when the sights are aligned. First you must master when the trigger will break, then controlling that happening when the sights are on target. With practice, it is pretty subconcious.

Really learn a triggers break point first, then practice moving the gun to the POA as it breaks.

I imagine myself wanting to stage the trigger while learning where the trigger breaks and I read that staging the trigger is not good practice. How can I learn where the trigger break is (which I assume is when the gun goes bang?) while not staging the trigger? It makes perfect sense to be able to be sure the sights are on target when the trigger breaks, and tips on this would be greatly appreciated.

Again, many thanks for all the help to everyone. The firearm crowd sure is a friendly and helpful one!

 

[AK103K]

I don't quite understand this

When you call your shot, youre indicating where on the target the round will impact from the sight picture/target relationship at the time the shot broke.

In other words, and somewhat simplified, the last thing you saw when the shot broke, was a perfect sight alignment that drifted slightly towards 1 o'clock. If you called it right, thats where the hole in the target should be, somewhere between the "X" and the edge of the bull at 1 o'clock.

What it tells you is, youre paying attention to what youre doing and your sights, and you know right where the round was headed at the time it broke. If it goes somewhere else, youre not paying attention, and/or doing something you shouldnt be. You should know where the round went, good or bad.

I imagine myself wanting to stage the trigger while learning where the trigger breaks and I read that staging the trigger is not good practice.

I suppose this falls under a definite "maybe".

I stage the trigger too at times, when it needs to happen. Most of the time, I usually just stroke it. Hmmm, I know what I meant, and you know what I meant, but it still doesnt sound right.

How can I learn where the trigger break is

Technically, youre not supposed to know. Realistically, we want to, and at times, need to. The only way to really know, or at least have a good idea, is to spend some time with the gun.

The downside to knowing, is it can cause you issues with anticipation and flinching, especially with heavy recoiling guns. The idea is to focus on the sights, and not worry about the break. To much anyway.

 

[dawg23]

Does trigger pull weight say from 5 to 9 lbs have a significant difference in shooter's accuracy? The pistol I am wanting to use for CC has a 9 lb (as spec'd by the mfg.) trigger pull. I didn't think this was too heavy for a DAO as it is mainly the safety feature of these pistol's design, no?

There are (at least) two elements that have a bearing on your query:

1. A heavier trigger will allow you a margin of safety if you do something "stupid," or do something unintentionally under stress.

2. BUT a trigger that is TOO heavy will make you a less accurate shooter. And shooting accurately is important for two reasons:

a. You need a good hit to stop a determined attacker with a handgun -- especially if you're determined to carry a .380 (or worse, something smaller in caliber).

b. If you miss the attacker and hit an innocent person, you're responsible. If that person dies, it's called negligent homicide in most jurisdictions.

3. At the risk of reiterating advice you probably don't want to hear -- get yourself a reliable handgun (Glock, M&P, SIG, HK) in 9mm (or bigger if you can truly handle a larger caliber). Those guns will (a) be reliable, (b) have a good combat trigger, (c) have good sights, and (d) be of sufficient size to be manageable (with practice) and carry enough ammo to take care of 98% of the encounters in which you may find yourself.

4. You'll be hard-pressed to find a more reliable handgun than a Glock, M&P, SIG or HK. You'll be hard-pressed to find a less reliable handgun than a Kel-Tec. (Please take these as facts, not as random internet opinions.)

5. Good luck.

 

[bonefamily]

Thanks, Dawg23 - I understand your points very well, and they make perfect sense. Money is tight right now but I do agree on your statement to be sure to have a reliable and well functional weapon. A bit of time is needed for that - though the CPX-2 is showing to be reliable thus far. The Kel Tec has jammed a few times.

AK103K - I had read prior about stroking the trigger so I know what you meant even though it does sound a bit strange I now understand what you meant by calling the shots and I will practice that next range trip. I am hoping to always be yelling, "center... center... center" though realistically will be yelling, "7:00... 8:00... 7:00"

 

[bonefamily]

Curious - would a laser be a helpful use for dry fire practice? I'm wondering if seeing the laser light jump on the target when the trigger is pulled would keep me more aware of what I am doing. Then again, I think that when I am not using the laser that I might go back to square one bad habits. Perhaps muscle memory will take over?

 

[AK103K]

I am hoping to always be yelling, "center... center... center"

LOL, arent we all.

You learn more if youre honest with yourself though.

 

[Nathan]

I imagine myself wanting to stage the trigger while learning where the trigger breaks and I read that staging the trigger is not good practice. How can I learn where the trigger break is (which I assume is when the gun goes bang?) while not staging the trigger? It makes perfect sense to be able to be sure the sights are on target when the trigger breaks, and tips on this would be greatly appreciated.

Dryfire is really the key to learning where it will break(fire). I literally do this about 100 times with a new gun and then about 20 per night until I really know it before wasting a lot of ammo.

 

[Ruark]

Of course, you can get used to anything, but I can't imagine using a DAO pistol, especially for self defense. Unless you've fired a LOT of shots through it in practice, your accuracy is going to be into left field. Also, it can't fire anywhere near as fast as a SA semiauto.

My SIG 2022 9mm is a D/S, where the first shot is DA, and subsequent shots are SA. The SA trigger is VERY light, about 4 lbs, and I can easily let off 5 to 6 rounds per second with it, almost like a machine gun. The long DA pull of the first shot acts as an effective safety, so you don't have to worry about flipping a safety off before you shoot. And if you have an extra half-second, you can thumb back the hammer when you draw so the first shot will be SA, too.

I've talked to a number of newbie gun owners who had no concept of SA and DA, who didn't know what they were, and go buy some cheap DAO gun and get disappointed because they can't hit the side of a barn with it.

 

[AK103K]

Also, it can't fire anywhere near as fast as a SA semiauto.

Actually, with the right shooter, I believe youll find a revolver is faster than an auto when it comes to cycling. The autos cant cycle fast enough.

 

[bonefamily]

Of course, you can get used to anything, but I can't imagine using a DAO pistol, especially for self defense. Unless you've fired a LOT of shots through it in practice, your accuracy is going to be into left field. Also, it can't fire anywhere near as fast as a SA semiauto.

My SIG 2022 9mm is a D/S, where the first shot is DA, and subsequent shots are SA. The SA trigger is VERY light, about 4 lbs, and I can easily let off 5 to 6 rounds per second with it, almost like a machine gun. The long DA pull of the first shot acts as an effective safety, so you don't have to worry about flipping a safety off before you shoot.

Thanks for the reply, Ruark. With the DAO being an inaccurate firearm and should not be used for self defense purposes in your opinion, then where does the first shot of a DA/SA pistol go? I have read that the first shot is most likely the most crucial...?? I would think that training with a DA/SA with one shot being double action and then 9 or more being single action, that the muscle memory would favor the single action side. Thoughts?

 

[AK103K]

With the DAO being an inaccurate firearm and should not be used for self defense purposes in your opinion, then where does the first shot of a DA/SA pistol go?

The first shot in DA/DAO goes where the sights were, or the gun was pointed, when the shot broke.

Back when I was hot on SIG's, I shot this at about 10 yards with my DA P229 in 357SIG. Each round on the target was shot DA, most from the holster, some from my arm hanging at my side, and after the shot, the gun decocked, reholstered, and done again. Theres some movement in there too, and not all shots were static. As you can see, it aint a perfect world, but thats why we practice, right?

This one was a little closer, same thing, but 3-4 shot bursts, starting with the first shot DA, with the last one or two to the head...

Different trigger type, but same basic thing as the first target above at about 10 yards with my Glock 17.

 

[Robk]

I understand that this topic is about DAO, but so many different firearms have been mentioned in comparison to the OPs pistols, that it makes it a non issue. The OP told us what his 2 firearms were. Small compact pistols, with the SCCY PX-2 having a barrel no longer than 3.1 inches. the Keltec is even smaller. IMHO, the OP fired his wifes Bersa better for two possible reasons. Longer site radius and perhaps the DA/SA trigger. The OP admitted to be a novice. That in itself would lead me to think that he was trying to learn on what many would call a hard firearm to hit with. Just as with revolvers, it is commonly said that below a 3 inche barrel is for very close range. So his pistols are as small as a snub nose revoler. Not many would advocate that a novice should learn on them first. I personally believe the OP should have started with a full size firearm first, than try the compact guns next. I understand having buget restrictions, but to expect 2 inch groups from pistols of this size while just learning to shoot would be unrealistic for me. I do hope he masters his pistols, but he may be creating bad habits now that would make it worse for him to more to a larger pistol later, but than again if he masters something this small, it may only help. I myself and not sure which way it would go. Good luck to the OP, hope he can do it. All for this is just IMHO and YMMW.

 

[h2otoo]

Bryan, when I bought the SCCY I tried the trigger on the S&W SD40VE (no 9's in stock). The SCCY felt much better. But, like RobK pointed out, a short barrel is for short range. As much as I like the CPX-2, I do find a 1911, with the 5" barrel and S/A trigger more fun to shoot. Who wouldn't? Which one conceals better? Which one do I usually carry? The SCCY, of course. It is every bit as reliable as any other hand gun I have. Pretty much as others said, practice, practice, practice. It will never be a "range gun", but for a SD carry gun it fits the bill just fine.