Leopard hunting is extremely hazardous in my experience( 3 safaris.) I haven't needed a second shot but I wouldn't hunt them with deer calibers.I have taken several buff with .470 Nitro (500 A-Square solids)and one with .375H&H (300 Swift A-frame.)I use the .375H&H with the 300 Nosler on leopard. The hippo is most deadly when afoot, not in the water. I have carried the .416 Rigby when in hippo country and used it on eland. They are huge but not dangerous. In Rhodesia .375 is minimum for eland,jumbo,lion,buff and white rhino.Yes I know it is Zimbabwe now, I am being politically incorrect. The thing to remember in Africa is that one never knows what one will encounter when bounding through the bush.
Dangerous game you have taken, what caliber & load did you use?
- Thread starter Glamdring
- Start date
I never know what kind of game I am going to encounter, wherever or whenever I hunt. Any animal weighing over 150lbs, when in the wrong frame of mind, can become bellicose and dangerous. For this, as well as other reasons (such as unpredictable, difficult shots), I hunt with a .375H&H loaded with 300-grain softpoints - always.
In Africa, dangerous game is encountered most often, whether they be part of the big 5 or just some other cantankerous critters such as hippo, croc or zebra, who decide they don't like the cut of your suit. And the overwhelming choice among African professional hunters is the .375H&H, both as a personal choice and as a recommendation to clients.
A friend of mine and prominent South African Bwana has explained to me that the .375, unlike the 416s and the 458, is very easy to shoot by the average hunter, and is less likely to cause a nervous client to flinch when the chips are down. He therefore prefers to see his clients armed with the old H&H than with any of the more modern and potent fodder such as the Weatherbys.
Even Craig Boddington, possibly the most literate of modern-day experienced hunters, has tallied the .375H&H as by far the most recommended cartridge for anything larger than medium plains game in his must-read tome Safari Rifles (Safari Press, Long Beach CA, 1990).
In my less rembunctious years, I have come to lay down the old .416 in favor of the .375, which I would not hesitate using on any game on Earth. I have come to learn to place my shots with surgical precision (as far as it's possible) and the gentle shove of my 9 1/2-lbs rifle has become second nature.
I have not yet had a use for solid bullets, though. I think that their need is very limited. Brain shots on elephant (hardly a commonality these days) and body shots on rhino (ditto) are the only 2 instances in which I would use them. Thing is, that controlled-expansion projectiles have gone such a technological distance by now, that with them you still get plenty of penetration plus expansion and hydrostatic shock. The Trophy Bonded, for example is a helluva lot of bullet, as is the Hawk and, of course, the Partition.
If I had to face a charge, I would much prefer a good, controlled-expansion 375+ bullet than any solid on Earth, possibly even for elephant. Put such a slug in an animal's puss and you'll turn it at the very least. Instead, a solid could even go clean through (especially with a soft-skinned animal such as lion or leopard) without making much of an immediate impression.
This is just my opinion, and I bow to any of you more experienced hunters out there, but so far I have not been disappointed. I am thinking of re-barreling one of my .416s to the 450/400 Nitro Express, and see if I can unseat the .375 as my King of calibers!
In Africa, dangerous game is encountered most often, whether they be part of the big 5 or just some other cantankerous critters such as hippo, croc or zebra, who decide they don't like the cut of your suit. And the overwhelming choice among African professional hunters is the .375H&H, both as a personal choice and as a recommendation to clients.
A friend of mine and prominent South African Bwana has explained to me that the .375, unlike the 416s and the 458, is very easy to shoot by the average hunter, and is less likely to cause a nervous client to flinch when the chips are down. He therefore prefers to see his clients armed with the old H&H than with any of the more modern and potent fodder such as the Weatherbys.
Even Craig Boddington, possibly the most literate of modern-day experienced hunters, has tallied the .375H&H as by far the most recommended cartridge for anything larger than medium plains game in his must-read tome Safari Rifles (Safari Press, Long Beach CA, 1990).
In my less rembunctious years, I have come to lay down the old .416 in favor of the .375, which I would not hesitate using on any game on Earth. I have come to learn to place my shots with surgical precision (as far as it's possible) and the gentle shove of my 9 1/2-lbs rifle has become second nature.
I have not yet had a use for solid bullets, though. I think that their need is very limited. Brain shots on elephant (hardly a commonality these days) and body shots on rhino (ditto) are the only 2 instances in which I would use them. Thing is, that controlled-expansion projectiles have gone such a technological distance by now, that with them you still get plenty of penetration plus expansion and hydrostatic shock. The Trophy Bonded, for example is a helluva lot of bullet, as is the Hawk and, of course, the Partition.
If I had to face a charge, I would much prefer a good, controlled-expansion 375+ bullet than any solid on Earth, possibly even for elephant. Put such a slug in an animal's puss and you'll turn it at the very least. Instead, a solid could even go clean through (especially with a soft-skinned animal such as lion or leopard) without making much of an immediate impression.
This is just my opinion, and I bow to any of you more experienced hunters out there, but so far I have not been disappointed. I am thinking of re-barreling one of my .416s to the 450/400 Nitro Express, and see if I can unseat the .375 as my King of calibers!
BadMedicine
Moderator
416Rigby, if you like the .375 better, why the name??
Thank you for clearing up that little bit about the .375 being heavily used in africa, even on big game. *somebody* not to name any names, but you know who you are, said basically that a .375 was a wussy gun, only to be used on small plains deer and antelope!! I was like "WHAT???" but couldn't find any supportive info on the net to post a rebuttle. However, comming from a guy whose actually been on african safaries, I take your word for it, as I've heard it before.
The late Hal Waugh, of kodiak alaska, guided bear hunts for many years. He has shot many bear (sometimes as a backup for his clients) and reported never having to shoot a bear twice with that gun, whom he named "Big Nan." He also took a safari in africa, and what did he use?? say it with me "A 375.H&H." And What did he shoot?? THE BIG FIVE. That's why I opted for a .375 this spring when getting a new gun, instead of the .338. My dad and his friend had to shoot my dads grizzly 7 times with .338 mags, and only one wasn't through the heart/lungs. That stray went through the bottom jaw. These huge bears whip themselves into such a frenzy, and have gallons of adrenaline pumping through their veins that you can't hardly kill them, that's why I wanted a little more gun. Mine is a Rem 700 BDL with a synthetic stock that kicks like a pissed off mule. I dunno how much it weighs prolly about 6 lbs but it sure is a hoot. I shot at a couple coyotes a few weeks ago and was so excited didn't even notice the kick.
Wanna know what gets me?? the 700BDL's that are in .308 have muzzle breaks factory installed on them. Who needs a muzzle break on a .308??? but on a .375, a gun that really could use a little less kick??? Nothing, No break at all. IN THE SAME MODEL OF GUN!!! What is that about???? Hmmm, makes me wonder what they're smokin over there at remington
Thank you for clearing up that little bit about the .375 being heavily used in africa, even on big game. *somebody* not to name any names, but you know who you are, said basically that a .375 was a wussy gun, only to be used on small plains deer and antelope!! I was like "WHAT???" but couldn't find any supportive info on the net to post a rebuttle. However, comming from a guy whose actually been on african safaries, I take your word for it, as I've heard it before.
The late Hal Waugh, of kodiak alaska, guided bear hunts for many years. He has shot many bear (sometimes as a backup for his clients) and reported never having to shoot a bear twice with that gun, whom he named "Big Nan." He also took a safari in africa, and what did he use?? say it with me "A 375.H&H." And What did he shoot?? THE BIG FIVE. That's why I opted for a .375 this spring when getting a new gun, instead of the .338. My dad and his friend had to shoot my dads grizzly 7 times with .338 mags, and only one wasn't through the heart/lungs. That stray went through the bottom jaw. These huge bears whip themselves into such a frenzy, and have gallons of adrenaline pumping through their veins that you can't hardly kill them, that's why I wanted a little more gun. Mine is a Rem 700 BDL with a synthetic stock that kicks like a pissed off mule. I dunno how much it weighs prolly about 6 lbs
but it sure is a hoot. I shot at a couple coyotes a few weeks ago and was so excited didn't even notice the kick.Wanna know what gets me?? the 700BDL's that are in .308 have muzzle breaks factory installed on them. Who needs a muzzle break on a .308??? but on a .375, a gun that really could use a little less kick??? Nothing, No break at all. IN THE SAME MODEL OF GUN!!! What is that about???? Hmmm, makes me wonder what they're smokin over there at remington
Bad Medicine: I also have one of those .375's that kicks like a pissed off mule (great expression). But it's worse on the other end. I killed a black bear with mine so quick that he didn't even twitch a whisker. He was walking toward me head down when struck at base of neck by a 300 grain Nosler Partition. Bullet took out base of neck, top of shoulders, and then ranged back through bear and was found in a hindquarter. I never feel that recoil in the field, but sighting in can be pure hell.
Good Shooting, CoyDog
Good Shooting, CoyDog
Nevada Fitch
New member
Well, I haven't killed any dangerous game with it but I really do like my 375HH Mag in my Remington 700 Classic.If I had to choose one gun to hunt everything that would be it.
BadMedicine
Moderator
Coydog, what model is your's? Where do you live/hunt?
BadMedicine: My .375 H&H is a Browning A-Bolt Stainless. It's a pretty light outfit, weighing about 8 pounds with a 2.5-8 Leupold. I just put a Kick-Ez recoil pad on it which helps a little, but I still get that stunned feeling when touching one off at the range.
I took the black bear in Manitoba on a guided hunt. I live in Kentucky, but I'm moving to Wyoming in the Spring-2001. I'll be spending a lot of time in grizzly country, so I recently took the scope off the .375 and installed a ghost ring rear peep from Ashley Outdoors, with a fiber optic bead up front. When scouting for elk or just knocking around in the wilderness, I'll take it along for general protection purposes. I usually hunt elk with a .300 Weatherby, but I may use the .375 one of these days to see how it performs.
Good Shooting, CoyDog
I took the black bear in Manitoba on a guided hunt. I live in Kentucky, but I'm moving to Wyoming in the Spring-2001. I'll be spending a lot of time in grizzly country, so I recently took the scope off the .375 and installed a ghost ring rear peep from Ashley Outdoors, with a fiber optic bead up front. When scouting for elk or just knocking around in the wilderness, I'll take it along for general protection purposes. I usually hunt elk with a .300 Weatherby, but I may use the .375 one of these days to see how it performs.
Good Shooting, CoyDog
How about 454 Casull , does anybody plan to make a companion rifle for the revolvers in this caliber.
I dont have a story but there is a guy in the NW
that hunts bear with the 454 casull and he is also selling a pistol safari in africa videotape. see the following link
to read his story about killing a brown bear that charged his stand with his Freeddom arms 454 http://www.pistolwhipvideo.com/Bigbear.htm
I dont have a story but there is a guy in the NW
that hunts bear with the 454 casull and he is also selling a pistol safari in africa videotape. see the following link
to read his story about killing a brown bear that charged his stand with his Freeddom arms 454 http://www.pistolwhipvideo.com/Bigbear.htm
....A throwback to my younger, stronger years, perhaps?...
Between the two... tough choice. But in the field, the .375H&H is simply unbeatable. I am so in love with that cartridge, that I always carry a loaded shell in the loop of my loden jacket, the belted, shiny case making quite a fashion statement
!!!I am actually trying hard to find a cartridge that would beat the .375. But it's hard to find something that has the timeless appeal, the impeccable performance, the widespread availability, the romantic aura, the versatility and the sheer history of the .375H&H. It's the same story for all the American ol'timers who are in love with their '06.
I am glad to see that many of y'all like the old Brit classic too. (BTW, I am an anglophile ONLY when it comes to riflery and brew).
Actually, I would like to know who in gawd's name could possibly infer that the .375H&H is good only for the little stuff? I would like to find out what sort of personal experience (misadventure) could have possibly given origin to such an idea in his head?!?!
416Rigby: As to failures of the 375 on dangerous game see page 44 of the April 2000 issue of Handloader No.204 where Ross Seyfried mentions a solid from a 375 that broke up on the shoulder knuckle of a buff after 2" of penetration. As an aside in a story on 416's. [BTW that buff was stopped with a 400 grain swift A-frame from a 416 Taylor]
And Ross doesn't bash the 375, he recomends the 375 or 416 for most people as heaviest rifle they need for hunting Africa.
I suspect that the reason we hear about failures from the 375 and the 458 Win is because they are the rounds used most often. So they do have a greater total number of failures even if they have a higher % sucess rate.
That and for the 375 I think you need very tough solids because it is a high velocity cartridge for solid use. The standard velocity for most NE rounds is ~2100 right? With the 416 Rigby at ~2370. [Note also that Bell's 7x57 with the 173 grainers would have been doing about same velocity as the 416 IIRC]
And Ross doesn't bash the 375, he recomends the 375 or 416 for most people as heaviest rifle they need for hunting Africa.
I suspect that the reason we hear about failures from the 375 and the 458 Win is because they are the rounds used most often. So they do have a greater total number of failures even if they have a higher % sucess rate.
That and for the 375 I think you need very tough solids because it is a high velocity cartridge for solid use. The standard velocity for most NE rounds is ~2100 right? With the 416 Rigby at ~2370. [Note also that Bell's 7x57 with the 173 grainers would have been doing about same velocity as the 416 IIRC]
Was that a serious post? [I can't tell for sure 
]
Far as I know no one makes real hunting bullets for the 50 BMG. And most of the portable [light enough for hunting] ones are single shots with rather extreme muzzle blast due to the muzzle brakes. You would probably need to wear plugs and muffs for hearing protection even if you were hunting with the 50 BMG.
If you want an extreme elephant caliber I would suggest the 577 or 600 Nitro as a better idea in a single or double rifle. Or the 500 Jeffery, or the Jeffery Improved which shoots a 535 grain bullet @ 2400, for a bolt gun.
]Far as I know no one makes real hunting bullets for the 50 BMG. And most of the portable [light enough for hunting] ones are single shots with rather extreme muzzle blast due to the muzzle brakes. You would probably need to wear plugs and muffs for hearing protection even if you were hunting with the 50 BMG.
If you want an extreme elephant caliber I would suggest the 577 or 600 Nitro as a better idea in a single or double rifle. Or the 500 Jeffery, or the Jeffery Improved which shoots a 535 grain bullet @ 2400, for a bolt gun.
Slugs seem to work fine for defense from bears, and would probably work fine in Africa on Lion and smaller.
The main problem with 12 slugs for dangerous thick skinned game is that no one makes a true solid non-expanding slug (yet). The Brennekes [sp?] are supposed to be tougher than the standard American slugs, but I still don't think I would count on them for buff or elephant.
To the best of my knowledge all the sabot slugs for shotguns are hollowpoints that normally penetrate less than normal lead slugs because they spend more energy to deform [ie expand] than the normal slugs.
Now if you handloaded a 420 grain .475" hardcast LBT style bullet in a sabot you might have something. Or even a 360 grain .452" hardcast LBT slug.
The main problem with 12 slugs for dangerous thick skinned game is that no one makes a true solid non-expanding slug (yet). The Brennekes [sp?] are supposed to be tougher than the standard American slugs, but I still don't think I would count on them for buff or elephant.
To the best of my knowledge all the sabot slugs for shotguns are hollowpoints that normally penetrate less than normal lead slugs because they spend more energy to deform [ie expand] than the normal slugs.
Now if you handloaded a 420 grain .475" hardcast LBT style bullet in a sabot you might have something. Or even a 360 grain .452" hardcast LBT slug.
Winchester has come out with a new slug that I intend to try out. It has a 385 grain Partition Gold bullet. This is patterned after the Nosler Partition, with the addition of a steel cap on the rear section. Should hold together well. Advertised velocity is 1900 fps, with 3086 muzzle energy. That's a pretty good thump!
For bear defense, I like the idea of a Benelli Super 90 with five rounds of these on tap...sorta like a semi-auto 45/70.
Good Shooting, CoyDog
For bear defense, I like the idea of a Benelli Super 90 with five rounds of these on tap...sorta like a semi-auto 45/70.
Good Shooting, CoyDog
Keith Rogan
New member
Glamdring,
Black bears kill about as many people as brown/grizzlies but you have to remember that black bears outnumber the big bears by about 100 to 1.
Ie: when encountering a bear, you are 100 times more likely to be attacked if it's a brown/grizzly.
Actually, it's more than 100 times more likely because more people survive brown/grizzly attacks than black bear attacks - territorial vs predation attacks and these stats only deal with fatalities. Nobody really knows how many people are attacked, because there is no central repository for such statistics. About a dozen people a year are attacked in this state alone.
So.... while you are more likely to be attacked by a brown, you will probably survive. If attacked by a black, you'll probably die unless someone is there to intervene with a firearm.
Reassuring, eh?
As for guns, the .45/70 rules in my opinion. Not entirely for it's ballistics, but also because it's usually housed in a short handy rifle that can be employed quickly.
Black bears kill about as many people as brown/grizzlies but you have to remember that black bears outnumber the big bears by about 100 to 1.
Ie: when encountering a bear, you are 100 times more likely to be attacked if it's a brown/grizzly.
Actually, it's more than 100 times more likely because more people survive brown/grizzly attacks than black bear attacks - territorial vs predation attacks and these stats only deal with fatalities. Nobody really knows how many people are attacked, because there is no central repository for such statistics. About a dozen people a year are attacked in this state alone.
So.... while you are more likely to be attacked by a brown, you will probably survive. If attacked by a black, you'll probably die unless someone is there to intervene with a firearm.
Reassuring, eh?
As for guns, the .45/70 rules in my opinion. Not entirely for it's ballistics, but also because it's usually housed in a short handy rifle that can be employed quickly.
BadMedicine
Moderator
KEITH IS BACK!!!!!!!
Welcome back Keith!!!! Have you been out on walkabout??? I was hoping the worse hadn't happened, again Have you been lurking and not posting?? Hmmm, well it's good to have your expert bear advise back at TFL.
Welcome back Keith!!!! Have you been out on walkabout??? I was hoping the worse hadn't happened, again
Have you been lurking and not posting?? Hmmm, well it's good to have your expert bear advise back at TFL.