Damned anti recruiting movement

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"Not to completely topic-jack, but there is a difference here. Heterosexual soldiers are free to talk about their sex lives, and need make no attempt to hide them, as long as they aren't adulterous (as in, with a married partner or if they are married). It may not be professional, but I've heard more than I'd ever care to about the sex lives of single heterosexual soldiers in my various units. A gay soldier, on the other hand, could very easily find himself shown the door if he spoke even one word regarding his."

The Pentagon's policy is "dont ask, dont tell, dont pursue. In many cases at platoon/company level the policy is "dont ask, dont tell, dont hear, dont see" especially if you're already at 80% strength and have deployment orders.
 
The Pentagon's policy is "dont ask, dont tell, dont pursue. In many cases at platoon/company level the policy is "dont ask, dont tell, dont hear, dont see" especially if you're already at 80% strength and have deployment orders.

I know this to be true. However, this doesn't mean that the policy isn't more rigorously enforced in some units...and really, I don't see how (IMO) an unfair policy gets better through uneven enforcement.
 
Uneven enforcement? Try non-enforcement. Since about 2004-2005 it's been almost impossible to kick anyone out for all but the most serious offenses. Drug use, debilitating illness/injury, and very serious crimes are about it. A lot of people are getting out and not enough are being recruited to replace them. Add to that the force is being expanded, and you have a situation where everyone is fighting for personnel and jealously guarding the ones they've got.
 
Try non-enforcement. Since about 2004-2005 it's been almost impossible to kick anyone out for all but the most serious offenses. Drug use, debilitating illness/injury, and very serious crimes are about it. A lot of people are getting out and not enough are being recruited to replace them.


Even drug use isn't an automatic anymore unless it's narcotics. I've see more article 15s handed out the last two years for pot than I'd seen in the 18+ years AD and 2 years NG prior to 05.
 
In fairness, most of the complaints about DADT I've heard recently aren't out of the Army...they're from the Navy and Air Force. I don't think either branch is hurting quite as badly for personnel, and in fact I believe both have been actively encouraging personnel (maybe just officers) off and on to re-branch to the Army.

Even drug use isn't an automatic anymore unless it's narcotics. I've see more article 15s handed out the last two years for pot than I'd seen in the 18+ years AD and 2 years NG prior to 05.

Non-narcotic drug-use wasn't always automatic before, either...I think there were exceptions (generally only for a first offense, under a certain rank, and I think under a certain time-in-service) before. But yeah, I know of a few guys in the Guard that have popped hot more than once now and aren't on the way out...regardless of policy. Exceptions for a great many things seem to be easier to come by, at least from what I gather of the grapevine (and the military does love its grapevine).

Still, much of this depends on chain of command. When it comes down to it, the policies are still there...and I imagine if you get a bad roll of the dice (say commanders that support it at the company, battalion, and brigade level...or maybe even just the first two) you're probably still screwed. I'm not sure where the numbers on wikipedia are ultimately coming from (the direct source is a special-interest site), and I'm a bit busy to look further, but it would seem that the military kicked out over 700 servicemembers in 2005 for homosexuality.

EDIT: Ah, it would appear that the MSNBC article linked by Redworm backs up the number. So yeah, over 700 kicked out in 2005.

EDIT: And in case anybody might be wondering what the heck this has to do with the original topic (in case you skipped some of the middle posts) this policy specifically is often named as a reason that schools/localities don't feel they should have to facilitate military recruiters...since in most instances this means that the military will be openly and officially discriminating against a sometimes significant portion of their student body/population (and even if it's not a significant portion, those people are still students/voters).
 
I don't claim to be an expert on the UCMJ. I'm signal corps, not JAG. But based on what I read, I dont think the way the case was handled was entirely proper. What set it off was anonymus e-mails. It usually takes a lot more than that. Sounds like someone in his chain of command just plain wanted him gone, could be wrong, but thats my gut reaction. Considering it happened at Bragg I'm not suprised. They just tried to courts martial 2 green beret snipers for shooting a known terrorist.
 
You know, this tangent would probably be able to come to a close if we could simply agree that the military does have an official policy that is discriminatory towards gays, and that that policy is at least unevenly enforced. Even without the enforcement, the policy alone would still constitute discrimination (because it could become enforced at any time).

I'll leave the discussion of whether this should be policy (honestly, I find there are compelling arguments on either side) to another thread, likely on another forum. But it is quite simply true that homosexuals can be (and are) kicked out of the military for something that heterosexuals are not...namely having non-adulterous sexual relationships and (more or less) failing to conceal it sufficiently...or (gasp) being open and honest about it.


Now, once we accept that the military discriminates against gays (which, whether some folks here want to admit it, is a simple fact) I think we can move back towards discussing whether, in light of this, it's appropriate for some institutions or localities to resist being compelled to offer assistance to an organization that discriminates openly against some of the very people that institution/locality represents...sometimes in what would be a violation of that very institution's non-discrimination policies. Which would bring this very much back on topic, and probably be more interesting than a discussion of DADT on a forum where gay rights issues must generally be tiptoed around.

So let's take a trip to hypothetical land. Say the military now has discriminatory policies against blacks (or the race/religion/whatever of your choice). A university has a significant number of black (or whatever) students...and let's add that perhaps they have specific non-discrimination policies regarding blacks (or whomever). Is it reasonable to compel this institution to assist an organization that essentially breaks the institution's own policies? Were the institution to do so voluntarily, would this be disrespectful to the group of students being discriminated against?

I just think it's an interesting ethical question. The whole "they should support the troops!" argument has its charms, but really if you look into it at all the situation isn't quite as black and white as that. Obviously the law regarding this is pretty clear at the moment. Note that this is also separate from, though somewhat related to, to the provisions involved with high schools.

Speaking of high schools, apparently after poking around a bit it seems that the whole "opt-out" clause isn't quite as powerful as you might think...apparently some schools only have a "generic" opt-out form; this means that you can opt out of having your child's information shared with military recruiters...but then it also will not be shared with job recruiters or college recruiters either...there is no way to opt-out of any of the three individually.

Unsurprising, and I've seen this scheme used in other contexts as well. The old "sure you can opt-out, but then you'll be screwed in other ways" gag. I'd also wonder what people think of this idea as well...should having your info made available to military recruiters be a prerequisite to having it made available to recruiters you do want to have that info? Obviously I don't think so, perhaps an interesting point of discussion though.

I'd still like to know what folks that aren't me think of the whole "federal funding" bat used to enforce these policies as well. I know the popular opinion here is that such shenanigans are a "bad thing," (in such contexts as the creation of a de facto national drinking age, for instance) but popular opinion here is also in support of pretty much all things military. It'd be interesting to see how the two intersect in this case...I can almost smell the cognitive dissonance brewing.
 
I think the people who are opposing the recruiting effort, whether they realize it or not, are helping bring back the draft.This country will be defended. Thats the bottom line. Right now a recruiter can ask them to join and they can say no for any reason or no reason. If it comes to a point where the force can no longer sustain it's self with regulars, conscription is the only alternative. Unless they wanna hire a bunch like Black water to do it. I'd rather not privatize war and most american dont either.
As far as the federal gov't attaching education funding to recruiter access, anytime the feds hand out money to state or local entities there are always strings attached. I remeber back when I was in school in the '80s, the states were given the option of either rasing thier drinking age to 21 or lose federal transportation funding. I think if schools want to deny recruiters access, that is their right. But, I dont think they should. The military offers people a lot of opportunities and I don't think a school administrator should deny them that. I realize many institutions have charters that bar organizationsthat discriminate based on sexual orientation,And I think it should be pointed out that "don't ask, don't tell" could be gotten rid of by executive order or a law by congress. The DoD dosen't get to make those kind of desicions.
 
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I'm a Desert Shield vet. My son (3 years in the USNSCC) has decided to join the Marines with the full understanding that he'll probably see combat. As much as that scares me, I'm not about to dissuade him or interfere because it's his decision to make.

Now having said that...I am completely in agreement with JuanCarlos and Redworm. I don't know how 'unpopular' our point of view is outside this forum, but I've never been one to follow the herd.
This is the United States of America, not some third-world dictatorship. Fealty to the President and reverence for the armed forces are not prerequisites for us. This country is about freedom, not jingoism.
 
As far as the federal gov't attaching education funding to recruiter access, anytime the feds hand out money to state or local entities there are always strings attached. I remeber back when I was in school in the '80s, the states were given the option of either rasing thier drinking age to 21 or lose federal transportation funding.

That money they are "handing out" to state and local entities was taken, in large part, from the citizens of those entities. If the federal government wants to withhold highway or education funding, fine...then stop taxing that state's citizens for those things, and allow the local/state entities to increase taxes (since the citizens there will have reduced federal tax burdens) and fund these things themselves.

Personally, while this might seem a bit extreme, I think it's about one step removed from blackmail/extortion. Taking money from a state's citizens, then holding it ransom if the state won't pass the laws that the federal government wants but doesn't have the power to pass.

I think if schools want to deny recruiters access, that is their right. But, I dont think they should. The military offers people a lot of opportunities and I don't think a school administrator should deny them that.

How is it "denying" them anything? Recruiter's offices are still open to the public, and listed in the phone book. I believe every branch even has 800 numbers. The various branches invest plenty in TV/print advertising as well, so it's not like a kid isn't going to know that they exist, and offer incentives.

I actually went to a very recruiter-unfriendly school. This was pre-NCLB, and I'm not entirely sure schools had these same requirements then...I don't think my school gave out info to recruiters, and I know they rarely if ever allowed recruiters to come on campus. I talked to my recruiter (who was assigned to my high school specifically...big city) quite a bit, and he had no love for my school on this issue.

Yet somehow I still found my way into a recruiter's office. And have spent nearly a decade in the service.
 
The school we recruited from only allowed one recruiter visit per year, for 2 hours in the guidance counselors office. Only 4 students from that school enlisted in 3 years. "Walk-ins" are extremely rare. Most of 9 out of 10 of our walk-is were usually morally or educationally unqualified to enlist.
When the call list is given to military recruiters, it just puts us on the same playing field as the college recruiters, who the schools are more than happy to help.
However, I think what kicked off this thread was the Code Pink incident. They tried to disrupt/shut down a recruiting office out in California. Their stated goal is to stop the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They think if they can stop recruiting that will happen. Last time I checked that was classified as subversion, but these days its probably free speech. If I was Secratary Gates I'd try to get some kind of restraining order keeping them a certain distance from DoD facilities.
 
"My recruiter lied to me"....

30+ years ago when I was in Basic training, this was perhaps the most heard phrase in basic. Grow up, get over it, and move on.

As far as the military being "discriminatory" towards gays, SO WHAT! Military service is NOT life in society in general. You do NOT have the same rights as ordinary citizens. You voluntarily agree to that before you join. That is a fact. Trouble is some people don't bother to understand that. The military does not promise you a sex life, of any kind. In fact they go quite a ways toward seeing that you don't have one, if it, in any way contrbutes to the betterment of the service. And YOU don't get to make that decision. Many things have changed over time, but some things don't, and one of them is that the military is not about the rights and priveledges of those serving.

You don't get treated fair, and you don't get treated like a civilian in a uniform. You get what the powers that be decide is best for you as a component of the service. Your individual wants and "needs" don't matter. Nor should they. I hated it when I was in, but over time, I came to realized that it isn't all about me. There are bigger, more important things than what makes me happy and feeling good about myself and my situation.

Blaming the military for being what they are, and opposing recruiters makes those folks (and I am not using Left or Liberal here on purpose) feel good. The same way gun control makes them feel good. The reasoning is the same. There is something they dislike (violence) and they are blaming the tools instead of those who actually create the situation. They don't like the war in Iraq (or the way it is being handled), so since they can't actually do anything about the war, they snub the military, any and every way they can. Just as they don't like (and who does) violence/crime but instead of blaming the criminals for their deeds, their solution is to blame guns.

They don't have the stomach to do something permanent about the who misuse guns, but they can do something about an inanimate object, so they do. And I see this anti-recruiting effort as the same level of emotional response.

Of course recruiters lie. By omission or by comission. If they told the absolute truth, very few would join, because military service is looked down on by a significant portion of our population. I think they are wrong, but that doesn't change anything. And, signing up for service at a time when there are actual combat operations going on is not something lots of folks are willing to do, today. If there is ever another event like Sept 11, 2001, you will see that change drastically, for a year or so. Just like it did then, like it did after Pearl Harbor.

But the longer you drag things out, without a clear cut enemy, and without a clear method of defining victory, the fewer poeple are willing to lay it on the line. While I do not doubt we are "winning" (at least in the sense that the "enemy" has not been able to mount another attack), we have not won in the sense most poeple can understand. Unlike WWII, we are not fighting the uniformed military of any nation state, so a clear cut victory is not possible. There just isn't any governing body to surrender, and even if there were, many of the individuals would not recognise or be bound by it's decision.

Perhaps a wiser choice (although costlier in terms of US citizens lives) would have been for the administration not to persue the terrorists in Iraq or other places (although we felt pretty good about Afganistan), until they mount another attack against us. There is something to be said for taking the hit, getting public sentiment firmly behind it, and then going out and kicking ass. I don't recall any of the folks currently screaming and whining about the war in Iraq saying anything anti war in the months after 9/11. People, all our people were mad, and wanted vengance. Call it whatever, that is what it was. Today, that rage isn't there. Like somebody said earlier (and a great phrase it is) "America isn't at war. The troops are at war. America is at the mall."

"If I was going to commit any kind of money in recognition of war, then it should be toward peace, given what our war is in Iraq right now," Supervisor Ross Mirkarimi said

If he really means that, I wonder that the good supervisor isn't spending money for nuclear weapons, since they were what "brought us peace" at the end of WWII. Rejecting a WWII battleship as a memorial because one doesn't agree with the policies of the current administration....I just don't see the sense it it. To me that is in the same category as blaming your deceased grandfather because your son isn't a camel.
 
Perhaps a wiser choice (although costlier in terms of US citizens lives) would have been for the administration not to persue the terrorists in Iraq or other places (although we felt pretty good about Afganistan), until they mount another attack against us. There is something to be said for taking the hit, getting public sentiment firmly behind it, and then going out and kicking ass. I don't recall any of the folks currently screaming and whining about the war in Iraq saying anything anti war in the months after 9/11. People, all our people were mad, and wanted vengance. Call it whatever, that is what it was. Today, that rage isn't there. Like somebody said earlier (and a great phrase it is) "America isn't at war. The troops are at war. America is at the mall."

Actually, public sentiment was pretty firmly behind our operations in Afghanistan...in fact, there are many people to this day that think Iraq was a mistake but Afghanistan was not (and that the latter would probably have been more successful had we not gotten involved in the former). Myself among them.

Also, you might not hear the same folks who "scream and whine" (I guess that's what we call it when people disagree) about Iraq right after 9/11, because 9/11 (and our subsequent operation in Afghanistan) was an entirely different event. In fact, there are many people to this day that see little to no real connection between our invasion of Iraq and 9/11. Again, myself among them.

30+ years ago when I was in Basic training, this was perhaps the most heard phrase in basic. Grow up, get over it, and move on.

Oddly my recruiter really didn't lie to me at all. He sure lied to some other kids, though, and hard...maybe he just realized that I was going to join regardless, and that it wasn't necessary.

Military service is NOT life in society in general.

This is very true. Honestly, while it might surprise some people, I don't think that the DADT policy is a black-and-white issue...I honestly do, as I said before, believe there are compelling arguments on both sides. And I'm not looking to debate the finer points of that argument, and whether the policy should remain, here. I'm just suggesting that perhaps people in the group that is discriminated against might not appreciate that, regardless of how necessary you or I might think it is, and that at that point their reaction to the organization that enforces that policy might be reasonable.

Or, additionally, that it might be reasonable that an institution might not want to facilitate recruiting from among their students by an organization that discriminates in direct violation of that institutions own policy.

Last time I checked that was classified as subversion, but these days its probably free speech. If I was Secratary Gates I'd try to get some kind of restraining order keeping them a certain distance from DoD facilities.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of charging people with subversion without an actual declared war...and even then I'm not fond of the idea. I guess I think some freedoms are just more important. Regardless, though, I'd say that such a restraining order would be a much more reasonable restriction on free speech, and something I'd support.
 
As far as the military being "discriminatory" towards gays, SO WHAT! Military service is NOT life in society in general. You do NOT have the same rights as ordinary citizens. You voluntarily agree to that before you join. That is a fact. Trouble is some people don't bother to understand that. The military does not promise you a sex life, of any kind. In fact they go quite a ways toward seeing that you don't have one, if it, in any way contrbutes to the betterment of the service. And YOU don't get to make that decision. Many things have changed over time, but some things don't, and one of them is that the military is not about the rights and priveledges of those serving.

You don't get treated fair, and you don't get treated like a civilian in a uniform. You get what the powers that be decide is best for you as a component of the service. Your individual wants and "needs" don't matter. Nor should they. I hated it when I was in, but over time, I came to realized that it isn't all about me. There are bigger, more important things than what makes me happy and feeling good about myself and my situation.
Exactly how is it different from not allowing black folk to serve, for example? Or asians? Or jews? Blondes?
Of course recruiters lie. By omission or by comission. If they told the absolute truth, very few would join, because military service is looked down on by a significant portion of our population. I think they are wrong, but that doesn't change anything.
That's just not acceptable. If the military can't recruit without lying then maybe it doesn't deserve those recruits. If people aren't joining then maybe it's not because military life is unpopular but that the wars our military is ordered to fight are unpopular.

If a nation doesn't have enough support from its people that recruiting is a problem then it shouldn't be fought. In case we've forgotten, the people are supposed to be the ones in ultimate control of the government and the military it commands and since it's pretty obvious that a majority of the people don't want this war then it's simply not right for recruiters to lie in order to fill the ranks.
I don't recall any of the folks currently screaming and whining about the war in Iraq saying anything anti war in the months after 9/11.
That's because in the months after 9/11 we were going after the nation that was harboring the people directly responsible for 9/11. Many people who are currently opposed to the invasion of Iraq have been opposed to it since it was first mentioned.
 
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I gotta go with JaunCarlos, Redworm and GoSlash27 on recruiters, DADT and federal blackmail. As far as 44amps post goes, I had no problem with Afghanistan and none of the liberal hippies I hang out with did either. We were retaliating against a country harboring those responsible for 9/11 and I thought it was and still is the right thing to do and came very close to reenlisting myself to help. Iraq not so much. IMHO I still haven't heard a valid reason of the many put forth by the current chickenhawks in office for us to go blow up that particular piece of oil soaked sandbox let alone heard a good reason our nations sons and daughters should be wounded or die there. I think it was a mistake and does nothing to improve our security and I think it creates more problems than it solves. Much like Vietnam and much like Vietnam I believe it will take years for us to heal from.
 
I joined the Navy in 1972 because the draft was going to get me. Did not want to be in the army.

I knew what I was in for when I joined. Recruiter promised submarines. During basic I was denied submarines. While attending A scool I managed to work my way back into submarines.

I spent six years in the Navy, great training, GI Bill college, friends still with me to this day. A brotherhood I will always cherish.

There were whiners back then and there always will be.

I never actually saw combat as it is loosely defined, only medal I have is for good conduct. I do have an award carefully worded to mask the reason I received it. I guess being in submarines during the cold war and going boat to boat with the russians in the cold depths is not really combat.

I did my part to keep this country free. If people want to trash the military, fine. Just don't do it where I can reach out and touch you, and don't let me hear you ask for their help when you need it.

Many folks will never understand the military for what it is because they never joined. Many of those drafted had good experiences. They all deserve respect.

Anygun
 
Many folks will never understand the military for what it is because they never joined. Many of those drafted had good experiences. They all deserve respect.

Anygun
Anyone that serves honorably deserves respect...for that service. That doesn't mean anyone has to respect their opinions, values, beliefs or any other aspect of them - especially if they look down on an entire class of people or don't offer others basic respect as human beings.
 
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