Dallas PD pulls the P320 from their Approved List.

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't know about any angle; but it seems like that particular angle is easy enough to achieve. As the TTAG guys pointed out, they didn't need a fixture to hold that angle, it just came natural.

I'm betting actual drops rarely involve a pistol perfectly parallel to the ground and honestly, I'm a bit more surprised that muzzle up with a slight tilt isn't part of the test routine.

After all, all the weight is in the mag, so it isn't like that drop is unrealistic or some bizarre anomaly.

Testing can reproduce any "particular" angle, but how do you know what angle (or angles) to reproduce? Once you start down that road, there is no end. The number of combinations and permutations is infinite. One gun might land at 30 degrees if dropped with a full magazine, but 25 (or 35) degrees if dropped with only a round in the chamber, and some other angle if dropped with the magazine half full.

A different pistol might fall at similar angles if dropped just right, but might go off if dropped at 15 degrees or at 45 degrees, but not if dropped at 30 degrees. It's impossible for any controlled testing to replicate how someone is going to drop a pistol. In the real world, I doubt that anyone accidentally drops a handgun by letting go of it with the barrel perfectly horizontal (or perfectly vertical). Dropping a gun by accident is a random event, and usually dynamic. The person knocks it off a table, or fumbles it when drawing or when re-holstering. It's more likely than not that in an accidental drop the gun isn't carefully positioned, static, and then released. The gun is probably moving when released, so it's impossible to replicate or reproduce all possible terminal angles and velocities.

It's a fool's errand to pretend that any testing protocol, no matter how thorough, can possibly anticipate ALL possible real world scenarios. It's better to train people not to drop guns.

 

[TunnelRat]

It's a fool's errand to pretend that any testing protocol, no matter how thorough, can possibly anticipate ALL possible real world scenarios. It's better to train people not to drop guns.

People generally don't drop loaded pistols intentionally nor do I believe we as a whole teach them that it is advisable to do so. But things happen, as you yourself pointed out. In all my years of driving I have never been in an accident where my airbag deployed. I also consider myself a safe driver. But in the event that accident does occur I would like to believe my airbag will indeed deploy.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The gun is probably moving when released, so it's impossible to replicate or reproduce all possible terminal angles and velocities.

Somebody stated earlier a 1911 can discharge if it lands square on the muzzle. However, that rarely happens because all the weight is in the grip and a 1911 will tend to rotate aft if you try to drop it on its muzzle. Since that's true of just about every semi-auto pistol out there, it would seem certain angles are more probable than others - I mean people are getting 2 out of 3 discharges with no equipment used to maintain the angle, so it sure seems like the pistol has a center of gravity that lends itself to the angle causing the problem.

Maybe a few free form drops need to be included in design just to identify potential liabilities before you get sued.

 

[Independent George]

The pertinent fact here is not that it discharges on a 30 degree drop, as the fact that it discharges when the rear of the slide impacts directly instead of the beavertail.

That seems like deliberate obfuscation on Sig's part - no, it's not reasonable to do a drop test from every angle and height. It is reasonable to drop test directly onto the slide. I accept it's not industry standard, and that it's easy to miss the defect when you test based on those standards.

The bigger issue is that circumstantially, it appears Sig knew about the defect and corrected it in the M17 trial pistols, and were rolling out the changes to new pistols on the commercial market, but did not make it public until they were forced to.

Contrast that to Ruger recalling the Mark IV over an issue that requires three steps to replicate, and depends on using the safety improperly in the first place.

This is less about the merits of the pistol itself (which does seem quite good), but about the corporate culture at Sig. It's like the EoTech recall - a design defect is easily forgivable, but deliberately concealing it is not.


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[Aguila Blanca]

People generally don't drop loaded pistols intentionally nor do I believe we as a whole teach them that it is advisable to do so. But things happen, as you yourself pointed out. In all my years of driving I have never been in an accident where my airbag deployed. I also consider myself a safe driver. But in the event that accident does occur I would like to believe my airbag will indeed deploy.

As would I. But you sort of made my point. It sounds as though you may have been in accidents -- in an airbag-equipped vehicle -- where the airbag(s) didn't deploy. So have I. Isn't that pretty much akin to a dropped gun discharging even though it has a purported drop fire safety?

Nothing is 100 percent. (Including the preceding statement.)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The bigger issue is that circumstantially, it appears Sig knew about the defect and corrected it in the M17 trial pistols, and were rolling out the changes to new pistols on the commercial market, but did not make it public until they were forced to.

Contrast that to Ruger recalling the Mark IV over an issue that requires three steps to replicate, and depends on using the safety improperly in the first place.

This is less about the merits of the pistol itself (which does seem quite good), but about the corporate culture at Sig. It's like the EoTech recall - a design defect is easily forgivable, but deliberately concealing it is not.

Agreed.

 

[TunnelRat]

As would I. But you sort of made my point. It sounds as though you may have been in accidents -- in an airbag-equipped vehicle -- where the airbag(s) didn't deploy. So have I. Isn't that pretty much akin to a dropped gun discharging even though it has a purported drop fire safety?

Nothing is 100 percent. (Including the preceding statement.)

Actually I've never been in an accident where the airbag would have deployed (the accident I was in impacted the wheel entirely). I don't consider a failing in that area to be a pass for the P320 drop safety not working, however. I believe, though frankly I'm not going to personally test, that there are other striker fired pistols on the market that would pass this test. If true then to me SIG owes it to its customers to deliver a product on par with the competition in this area.

My point with the previous comment was we can train people to try to not drop pistols, but drops will still happen (for that matter reaching for or attempting to grab a falling pistol has been seen in a number of stories to have terrible consequences). In that case having drop safeties is important. I'm fully aware that there is no completely drop safe pistol, but I do believe that this design can be improved, and according to SIG that is true given the redesigned parts in the M17. Being safe in your firearm handling and having good safety designs doesn't have to be mutually exclusive situation.


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[Bartholomew Roberts]

From TTAG: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...0-voluntary-safety-upgrade-details-on-monday/

"SIG claims that recent feedback from government agencies evaluating the P320 inspired the enhanced trigger design. The changes were intended to improve trigger feel during the pull and reset. The result just happens to fix the drop safety issue, too. According to SIG, they intended to incorporate the changes in all P320 models — at a date the company didn’t specify."

I call shenanigans on SIG. I do not believe they were in the process of improving the trigger and then surprisingly this turned out to fix a problem that we know occurred as early as January 5, 2017. I also hate feeling like I'm being lied to by someone I am doing business with. Even worse is the "I'm being lied to and in an obseqious fashion that indicates this person thinks I'm exceedingly gullible."

 

[TunnelRat]

The sheer logistics of this "voluntary upgrade" will be nuts. Absolutely nuts. 500,000 pistols in the wild currently. For that matter, since it's voluntary I wonder if SIG will charge shipping to the factory? If they do, imagine the pissed off customers, so I can't imagine they'd have the gall to do that. In that case the cost of shipping both ways, the cost of time and labor for the repair as well as the parts, and all of this for tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of pistols.

As for shenanigans, I called that back on post 113 https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6496636&postcount=113.

 

[JoeSixpack]

It's cheaper then a lawsuit.
There will be a glut of guns at first but then it will trickle in to a manageable pace.

Some will probably never be fixed, Probably a ton of owners who have no idea this problem even exists.

I'd assume they'd pay shipping.. or at least they should, I'd be pissed if they didn't.

If the parts are drop in they might have the option of sending them out for self install.. I'd go that route for those comfortable.

 

[TunnelRat]

The soldier systems article seemed to intimate that it's not just drop in:

It’s going to be more than just swapping parts. The slide and frame will need some work as well so the pistol will need to go back to SIG.

 

[JoeSixpack]

Sig should cover it shipping, If they don't and try to weasel out of it cause it's not a recall but a "upgrade" I'd be REALLY pissed as a owner.

A big name mfg like Sig I suspect they'll do right and cover all costs.

 

[JJNA]

Will they have to modify the grip module too? If so, what dies that do to compatibility with existing modules (both variants)?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I call shenanigans on SIG. I do not believe they were in the process of improving the trigger and then surprisingly this turned out to fix a problem that we know occurred as early as January 5, 2017. I also hate feeling like I'm being lied to by someone I am doing business with. Even worse is the "I'm being lied to and in an obseqious fashion that indicates this person thinks I'm exceedingly gullible."

Agreed. Especially when the press release on the "improved" trigger says that it doesn't change the trigger pull (except to eliminate the "double click," which is something I hadn't heard of before).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If the parts are drop in they might have the option of sending them out for self install.. I'd go that route for those comfortable.

From a liability perspective, they'd be nuts to send out the parts and let people do it themselves.

 

[WVsig]

It's cheaper then a lawsuit.
There will be a glut of guns at first but then it will trickle in to a manageable pace.

Some will probably never be fixed, Probably a ton of owners who have no idea this problem even exists.

I'd assume they'd pay shipping.. or at least they should, I'd be pissed if they didn't.

If the parts are drop in they might have the option of sending them out for self install.. I'd go that route for those comfortable.

There is no way they are going to let us drop in the parts to fix this. Also I believe that Tunnelrat is correct that modifications to the slide and frame will be modified. This is going to take forever.

#nonewsigsever

 

[Justice06RR]

Oh man, does this mean I should drop test my Glock, Ruger, and Taurus pistols to see which one is drop-safe or not


J/k. It's strange that Sig did not catch this during their testing. You would think they would drop-test the 320 a million times during every phase of production including before/after any modification, and especially before shipping the final product to any LE department.

 

[JERRYS.]

has anyone built a better Glock than Glock?

 

[gc70]

I call shenanigans on SIG. I do not believe they were in the process of improving the trigger and then surprisingly this turned out to fix a problem that we know occurred as early as January 5, 2017. I also hate feeling like I'm being lied to by someone I am doing business with. Even worse is the "I'm being lied to and in an obseqious fashion that indicates this person thinks I'm exceedingly gullible."

Agreed. Especially when the press release on the "improved" trigger says that it doesn't change the trigger pull (except to eliminate the "double click," which is something I hadn't heard of before).

How do you reach good conclusions if you lack good perspective?

Search this forum or any other for complaints about the P320. The two most common complaints about mechanical issues that I remember involved 'trigger sting' first and later a 'double click' in the trigger.

Sig's solution to 'trigger sting' was the 'adverse trigger' which filled in the back of the tip of the trigger and added a large flap at the top of the trigger. Note that the changes creating the 'adverse trigger' substantially increased its mass.

Sig now says it has been working on -and has implemented in the M17- a solution to the trigger's 'double click.' I am not saying Sig might not have had nefarious motives in this case, but addressing their customers' most common complaint is something companies commonly do.

 

[JoeSixpack]

Oh man, does this mean I should drop test my Glock, Ruger, and Taurus pistols to see which one is drop-safe or not


J/k. It's strange that Sig did not catch this during their testing. You would think they would drop-test the 320 a million times during every phase of production including before/after any modification, and especially before shipping the final product to any LE department.

Well I'd be shocked if the Glock had any drop issues as much as it's been tortured.
I don't own nor do I want to own a Glock but I'd feel completely confident a glock is drop safe.. Plus glock really only makes 1 model gun, sure it comes in different sizes and calibers but fundamentally they just make one product so less likely for problems I think.


As for other manufactures It sure wouldn't hurt my peace of mind to see more drop tests that exceed industry standard, which frankly seem pretty piss poor when you really look at the nuts and bolts of the tests.

Taurus did have that "shake'n'shoot" debacle a couple years back, All affected guns are no longer in production but still that was pretty bad.
On the other hand the guns that was on the list was in production for a long time and it's amazing it took so long for it to reveal it self.

Other mfgs have had recalls too.. I guess no one is really safe from problems like this.

The way I understand it the original design of the p320 had a lighter trigger.. which while still exhibits the drop problem it was less prone to it.
At some point they added renforcement to the trigger whcih added weight which exasperated the problem.

It's sort of a unusual problem where the trigger it self was being actuated.. so no internal safeties like the firing pin block would have stopped it.

Presumably any split (glock like) trigger would be immune to this because the middle actuator on such triggers is probably far to lightweight to be pulled by the force of a drop which would be required to pull the trigger in the first place.

So guns like the XD, M&P, Sigma, Taurus G2's, etc might fail a drop test but probably not in the way the p320 did.

I would assume most hammer fired guns are probably fairly safe from this particular type of failure also, at least if in DA mode.

SA mode might be a different story.