DA/SA vs other

[SPUSCG]

I don't like striker guns much, but i dont really like polymer guns much either and theres very few to no striker fired metal guns. DAO guns i hate, there touted as a consistent trigger....consistently long and heavy, i dont need to cripple myself with a long pull each shot when i can ahve a short light crisp one. I shoot my cz75bd better than any striker gun ive had in my hands (various glocks, xd, m&P.) and i shoot my cz and 1911s better than the sig DAK and Smith and wesson 3rd gen daos.

 

[Jamas]

I don't veiw your points as argumentative. You have a very clear points. The thing that I'm trying to grasp is the ... Paraphrased. ?spelling? Oh my goodness I need a chain and a tank to pull this monster of a trigger... I have never fired a dao semiauto that has any better of a trigger than my beretta (with the D spring). I really don't like dao semis though and I've probably never shot a "good" one.
On an edged target ,at facing I can draw and fire center of mass 16 shots in under 8 seconds with the 92 with the Ruger p95dao its almost 11 seconds with a much more scattered group . YMMV

 

[Jamas]

I carry a m&p .40 for cc or a smith model 60 .38 j frame. I just really like da/sa for home defense.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Jamas:

Bringing up the fact that there could be a situation that will prevent you from drawing/grabbing your firearm is a moot point when the topic of conversation is action types on your chosen gun. Everything is situational, and in a dire situation i would rather not have to worry about disengaging a safety... about thumbing back the hammer... Situational I'm not going to try to thumb back a hammer if there is an immediate threat, i would just pull the trigger.
If you are uncomfortable with your ability to transition from a long double action pull to a short single action pull then please use whatever you wish.

I know that is why I said, "(doesn't matter what gun you have... you're screwed)" and then proceeded to my next point, "or you could have enough time to draw the gun but not enough time to get a good shot off. In the latter situation you are better off not thumbing the hammer back because it takes less time to just pull the trigger. And, in that situation the other action types have the advantage."

In a dire situation you could just have a striker or DAO gun. No safety... same pull every time. I know you would just pull the trigger... but a 10lb trigger pull is likely to throw your shot off by a lot and it is easy to miss with a pistol even at close range (I see it all the time at the range even at 5 yards... and they aren't even shooting double action). If you are practiced with that trigger pull and you can do that under stress without ruining your accuracy that much... then you are a better shooter than I by far (and that is a "failure" on my part). But, this is why I ask myself, "Why am I trying this hard to do the same thing that these other guns do?" I have small hands and weak fingers but I can handle shooting a .45 just fine because the trigger pull isn't 10 lbs. I have worked with hand and finger strengtheners to help me out but it seems that the shot will always be off target for me in double action with a 10 lb pull (once again... failure on my part)... but I see no reason to do it... and even if I ever became proficient at it... its wasted effort because I could have just used any other design and be good to go ages ago.

I don't veiw your points as argumentative. You have a very clear points. The thing that I'm trying to grasp is the ... Paraphrased. ?spelling? Oh my goodness I need a chain and a tank to pull this monster of a trigger... I have never fired a dao semiauto that has any better of a trigger than my beretta (with the D spring). I really don't like dao semis though and I've probably never shot a "good" one.
On an edged target ,at facing I can draw and fire center of mass 16 shots in under 8 seconds with the 92 with the Ruger p95dao its almost 11 seconds with a much more scattered group . YMMV

I can pull a 10 lb trigger. But I won't be accurate with it. And, like I said, that is my fault. But... what benefit would I have even if I could? Is a bullet still hitting the target? Yes. Are there not designs that also don't have safeties that I can do the same thing with easier? No. So that is where my confusion comes from. I know striker guns don't have triggers to write home about... but they aren't bad. And, yes, there are good DAO triggers. I just ordered the Sig P250 (~6lb DAO semi-auto that has a trigger pull just as good as the P226). Yes, the SA on the P226 beats the P250's trigger. The SA doesn't redeem the DA for me though. And, the P250's trigger is surprisingly nice... just to let everyone know who hasn't tried one.

But, yeah. That kind of shooting is far better than I can do. But, I have not worked up to shooting for speed yet. I can do 2" groups @ 10 yards slow-fire 100% of the time with cheap ammo at the range with all of my guns. I know it isn't impressive because I am shooting slowly and 10 yards isn't that far...but I want to be fast and accurate. And... I can't get that kind of accuracy to save my life with the DA pull on a DA/SA so I don't think shooting faster will help things for me either. I figure that if I tried to shoot fast with a DA I would be pretty much guaranteed to miss the target especially under stress. And... I don't think its worth wasting that round for the sake of not having a safety. Of course if you can print just as good DA as SA then that is far better than me and there is no downside for you. But... I can't do it. So I guess that is where it differs. For people who can shoot just as accurately DA as SA then there is no reason to fault the DA/SA design. I just can't be accurate with a 10 lb DA trigger to save my life.

@SPUSCG:
Yeah... I don't like DAOs that have heavy trigger pulls (just as bad as a DA/SA's first pull). As long as they have a light (5-7 lb) trigger then DAOs are just fine for me. Its the weight combined with the length of pull that makes it a real pain in the ass to get accurate shots off... and I wish to be equally accurate with all of my shots.

The DAK trigger is stupid in my opinion. It is a ~6 lb trigger with a full DAO length of pull... but it has a short reset if you don't go all the way back out with the trigger... but instead of it being 6 lbs its ~8 lbs (unless you go all the way back out again to fully reset the trigger)... dumb, dumb, and dumb. Consistency is key... that is pretty much the opposite of that.

I just ordered a Sig P250 this morning (~6 lb trigger pull DAO semi-auto with a very large range of features that allow you to customize your ergos). I really have to shoot it a lot to see if I will like it but it has a damn smooth trigger (just like the P226 series) but it isn't DA/SA and it doesn't have a 10lb trigger.

 

[ftd]

iMagUdspEllr,

No. A Beretta M9 decocks the hammer when you put the safety on. A Sig Sauer P226 doesn't have a safety. The only gun that comes to mind that functions the way you describe is the newer FNX series of pistols.

Hmm… I can’t get my mind around a “safety” that only goes safe by de-cocking the gun – sounds like a de-cocking lever to me. I looked up the FNX – their idea is intriguing with the safety lever doubling as a de-cocker, but as an extra choice, not the only one (although, it looks like you could maybe push right past “armed” right into de-cocker mode).

There are other DA/SA choices, however, that have the “cocked and locked’ SA type safety. My EAA Witness (CZ75 clone), has a “real” safety (but no de-cocker except for the hammer), and they have compact models, too. Unfortunately, they do not have ambi- safeties for you sothpaws, but when I practice shooting left handed I can easily work the safety with my left trigger finger. The safety is a little higher than on the FNX and a little further forward, so it does not touch your hand when gripping or firing.

Also, all Taurus DA/SA’s have ambi- 3 position (safe , ready, and de-cock) safeties. There are others available that have “real” safeties without the de-cocker feature – Bursa comes to mind.

Otherwise, it looks like the industry is moving to striker and DAO. It might even be coming down that the only SAOs available will be 1911s and Hi-points (at least the 1911s have hammers). Maybe it’s time to invest in some more guns that suit me and not the industry, before they stop making the ones I like. I guess I'm just an old coot.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@ftd:

Hmm… I can’t get my mind around a “safety” that only goes safe by de-cocking the gun – sounds like a de-cocking lever to me. I looked up the FNX – their idea is intriguing with the safety lever doubling as a de-cocker, but as an extra choice, not the only one (although, it looks like you could maybe push right past “armed” right into de-cocker mode).

There are other DA/SA choices, however, that have the “cocked and locked’ SA type safety. My EAA Witness (CZ75 clone), has a “real” safety (but no de-cocker except for the hammer), and they have compact models, too. Unfortunately, they do not have ambi- safeties for you sothpaws, but when I practice shooting left handed I can easily work the safety with my left trigger finger. The safety is a little higher than on the FNX and a little further forward, so it does not touch your hand when gripping or firing.

Also, all Taurus DA/SA’s have ambi- 3 position (safe , ready, and de-cock) safeties. There are others available that have “real” safeties without the de-cocker feature – Bursa comes to mind.

Otherwise, it looks like the industry is moving to striker and DAO. It might even be coming down that the only SAOs available will be 1911s and Hi-points (at least the 1911s have hammers). Maybe it’s time to invest in some more guns that suit me and not the industry, before they stop making the ones I like. I guess I'm just an old coot.

It does both. If you put the safety on... on a M9 or a PX4 it decocks the weapon and it prevents the trigger from actuating the hammer (the trigger just wiggles back and forth if you pull it... the hammer won't move). So... basically you can't carry condition I with a M9 or PX4. Basically, Beretta was like, "Look its safer than Sig! You can decock it AND put the safety on!" Of course people still decock it by engaging the safety and then disengage the safety so that the hammer is down and the safety is off (just like a Sig... but a Sig has no safety... Sig has a way better design... though I don't like DA/SA anyway). I think the design is dumb. I bought two PX4s because I was stupid (impulse buys). I really don't like them that much.

Yeah. I had the FNP-45 Tactical and the FNX-9. I didn't like that the safeties weren't very positive and you could decock the pistol by flicking the safety too far down (this isn't common because your hand on the other side of the gun does block the other side of the safety... but it is still possible if you end up moving your palm out of the way). The FNX series does not have DA triggers on par with Sigs or Berettas for that matter for those of you intending to use them DA/SA style.

 

[SPUSCG]

@SPUSCG:
Yeah... I don't like DAOs that have heavy trigger pulls (just as bad as a DA/SA's first pull). As long as they have a light (5-7 lb) trigger then DAOs are just fine for me. Its the weight combined with the length of pull that makes it a real pain in the ass to get accurate shots off... and I wish to be equally accurate with all of my shots.

The DAK trigger is stupid in my opinion. It is a ~6 lb trigger with a full DAO length of pull... but it has a short reset if you don't go all the way back out with the trigger... but instead of it being 6 lbs its ~8 lbs (unless you go all the way back out again to fully reset the trigger)... dumb, dumb, and dumb. Consistency is key... that is pretty much the opposite of that.

I just ordered a Sig P250 this morning (~6 lb trigger pull DAO semi-auto with a very large range of features that allow you to customize your ergos). I really have to shoot it a lot to see if I will like it but it has a damn smooth trigger (just like the P226 series) but it isn't DA/SA and it doesn't have a 10lb trigger.

DAK is 6.6-8.7 and thats stupid, reset should be same weight. i only use the 6.6. I hate the reset, ive shortstroked a couple times in rapid.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello iMagUdspEllr,,,

... so what makes you think you will always have time to thumb the hammer back?

I don't recall ever having said I would always have time to pull the hammer back,,,
I did say I can easily conceive of a situation where I would have time to draw and take careful aim,,,

I'm sitting at my desk at work and hear a shooter in my computer lab,,,
I'll probably have several seconds to get my gun and be ready for him to walk around the corner,,,
in that time I will have the gun cocked and ready to plug him, or if not the double action trigger will still allow me to shoot fast.

It's that simple for me,,,
If I have time I will use the hammer,,,
If not I will fall back on the double-action trigger.

The biggest difference between your opinion and mine is that you are trying to prove me (and others) to be wrong,,,
I'm simply stating the rationale behind my way of thinking and the choice I have made,,,
You're trying to change our minds where we are not trying to change yours.

Aarond

 

[gunsavy]

I think its fine motor skills vs gross motor skills. And as far trigger consistency goes, when your adrenaline is pumping I don't think a 10lb trigger pull is going to matter. Most stories I hear about gun fights people can't remember how many times they pulled the trigger let alone how many pounds it was.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@aarondhgraham:

I don't recall ever having said I would always have time to pull the hammer back,,,
I did say I can easily conceive of a situation where I would have time to draw and take careful aim,,,

I know. I said that it is better to have a gun that has the SA trigger pull all the time right? Or at least a trigger pull that is better than a 10lb trigger. You don't ever have to worry about thumbing the hammer back, which mode you are in. It is good to go for maximum accuracy all the time... instead of after the first shot or after thumbing the hammer back. That is where the other actions have the advantage.

The basis of my argument relies upon the idea that everyone shoots better with a trigger that isn't a 10lb DA trigger. Therefore, it is better to not have a 10lb DA trigger on your gun at all and only have the SA or equivalent on your gun. If this isn't true for you (you are just as accurate with DA as the SA) then I have no ground to stand on. However, for myself and everyone I have ever met (I don't have competition shooter friends) they shoot significantly worse if they try to shoot a 10 lb DA trigger.

And, like I said earlier, if you are under stress isn't it possible to pull the DA trigger like the SA trigger (you forgot what mode you were in)? This would cause the gun to either not fire or for you to miss the target. Or, did you thumb the hammer back and your muscle memory still made you pull the first shot like a DA trigger anyway (causing you to jerk the trigger and miss the target)?

Once again, if it doesn't matter what mode you are in and somehow you always seem to hit the black even when shooting rapidly and in a hurry then I have no ground to stand on. If you do shoot worse with the DA pull (significantly worse) then that is where my argument comes into play (just use a gun that doesn't have that ridiculous first pull).

So basically... if you don't have time you are going to shoot worse... if you do have time you will thumb the hammer back and shoot like everyone else. That is why I say the other designs are superior.

So when you fall back on your DA trigger if you shoot the same with it then I have no argument. If you don't and you are better with the SA trigger then... why not use a different design (there are other designs that don't have safeties)?

The biggest difference between your opinion and mine is that you are trying to prove me (and others) to be wrong,,,
I'm simply stating the rationale behind my way of thinking and the choice I have made,,,
You're trying to change our minds where we are not trying to change yours.

This is a moot point. Yes, I am trying to logically sort through this and determine what logical reasons people have for using DA/SA. It isn't a matter of opinion. Some things are better than others. Sometimes it depends on the situation. However, I am looking at everything in all situations. Am I not allowed to try to change people's minds? Just because I am it doesn't discredit what I have said. I was actually hoping that someone would try to change my mind and show me "the light" behind the DA/SA trigger. The only light I see about it so far is that if you are equally good with DA as SA on a DA/SA then it is great. However, I don't believe many people are equally good with DA as SA and that is where my argument picks up.

 

[aarondhgraham]

I was actually hoping that someone would try to change my mind and show me "the light" behind the DA/SA trigger.

It's definitely not my job or my purpose to change your mind,,,
I'll throw out my logic for doing something,,,
You'll accept it or not on your own.

Yes you are allowed to try and change someone's mind,,,
Don't get offended when they reject your attempt,,,
I like reading other people's opinions on things,,,
I become weary of proselytizing arguments.

It's like when a government official tells me,,,
"It's for your own good.",,,
I get a bit annoyed.

Aarond

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@aarondhgraham: I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I don't want you to change my mind. I want to have a discussion as to why some people prefer DA/SA. Because, according to the facts it seems that is a lesser design (aside from the situation where the shooter is capable of firing DA just as good as SA) compared to other actions available.

I know I will accept your reasoning or not. Just like you will accept my reasoning or not. That isn't the issue. It is about building a case to support one design or another. And, then seeing if we can effectively address the "other side's" counter-points. Whichever "side" (and I am using this term loosely because I don't believe we should be arguing about this... simply building cases) holds the most water after all points and counter-points have been presented will more often than not be the better choice. The only caveat to that is if something comes up where "it depends"... and that did happen... it depends on if someone is able to shoot DA as well as SA or not. Unless you have more to add.

I do not feel my attempt to change people's minds was rejected because I didn't set out to do so. I presented pros for the DA/SA action, my counter-points, and then repeated that process every time someone chose to present their counter-points. So, I felt that I had a good discussion with a good bunch of people. I started this thread to try to learn something.

I become weary of proselytizing arguments.

Eh, well it was more of a thread created with the intention for me to possibly change my mind depending upon what other people said to support the DA/SA design. I wasn't really trying to convert anyone (but myself maybe? In a weird indirect way.)

I just didn't understand why people still use the DA/SA design (because of the reasons I have already stated) and I have come to the conclusion that it works perfectly for people who can shoot DA just as good as SA, I am not one of those people, and I know that those people will do great with the design (in stark contrast to myself).

@gunsavy:

I think its fine motor skills vs gross motor skills.

What do you mean? Pulling the trigger is a fine motor skill. Thumbing the hammer back is a fine motor skill. Flicking the safety off is a fine motor skill. I don't believe we have talked about gross motor skills in this thread.

And as far trigger consistency goes, when your adrenaline is pumping I don't think a 10lb trigger pull is going to matter. Most stories I hear about gun fights people can't remember how many times they pulled the trigger let alone how many pounds it was.

A 10 lb trigger won't matter in what way? I believe you will be able to pull a 10 lb trigger... that isn't what I am discussing. I am saying that a 10 lb DA trigger will throw your shot off, especially under stress, and the transition from 10 lb DA to 4.5 lb SA will be even uglier under stress.

My point is that if you have only one trigger pull (especially one that isn't so heavy) you will retain a higher level of accuracy, even under stress, because that consistency is there. You don't have that with a DA/SA so I feel that you will spend more time wasting shots than hitting the target in that life or death situation.

What if you only have one shot and you have to make it quickly? I wager most people wouldn't want to have to make an accurate shot quickly with adrenaline pumping with the double action trigger pull. And, that leads me to think, "Why have that 10 lb DA trigger pull at all? There are other designs."

None of this applies to someone who can shoot just as accurately with DA as SA under stress. I don't know anyone who can do that... but I don't know any competition shooters either.

 

[tahoe2]

Irregardless of the trigger pull, is the amount of practice it takes to make it second nature, therefore thinking is no longer part of the process, it is instinct and muscle memory. I have 2 DA/SA semi autos(sgl stk,dbl stk), 1 DA/SA revolver, & 1 SA revolver; when my hand feels the grip (each is different), my response is mentally activated by feel to which weapon it is because of muscle memory, so I don't think about it, I respond to it. It is the same with long guns ( pump action, lever, bolt, etc...) all of my hand guns have hammers.

pistols

HK-USP compact 40s&w
Smith & Wesson 639 9mm
Smith & Wesson Mtn gun 41mag
Ruger Blackhawk 41 mag

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@tahoe2: The grip of the gun tells your brain to pull the trigger a certain way. So when you are holding the same gun (DA/SA) how does your brain know to pull DA or SA? Did you thumb the hammer back and not realize it? Did you not thumb the hammer back but thought you did? Does your brain automatically tell your finger to switch from DA to SA after the first shot?

You can see how under stress you can still make a mistake. Even if you know you have your HK in your hand... that still doesn't tell you if you thumbed the hammer back or not. And, even if you didn't thumb the hammer back and you automatically pulled the trigger properly for the DA pull on the first shot... will your brain then automatically switch to SA mode? You have the same grip in your hand so how does your brain remember to switch?

I understand that if you are practiced with your gun you could make the first DA shot and following SA shots by instinct alone. But are your double action shots at the range as good as your single action shots? Are you equally accurate with your HK decocked as when it is cocked?

 

[ftd]

iMagUdspEllr,

If I read you correctly, you have made your point, which is valid, that switching from double action (especially with a heavy DA pull), to SA poses some issues on accuracy and possible cofusion on how the gun is set at the time you want to use it. Others like the flexibilty of having both DA and SA and the potential added safety of starting in DA and believe they can hadle the transition fine, especially by training for it, also a valid point. (of course if your performance is compromised by the DA switch to SA issues, are you compromising your safety when the SHTF?)

It seems to me that your real issue is not DA/SA vs. SA only, but the capability of being able to carry your weapon cocked and locked. If that capability exists in a gun that you otherwise like, do you really care if it is a DA/SA rather than SA only?

Me? I like my paticular DA/SA gun, just because I like it, and because it works both ways AND I can carry it cocked and locked, too, if I want to.

 

[gunsavy]

When I spoke of fine motor skill I was talking about the safety. But I don't think I would consider pulling trigger a fine motor skill (is there a proper way) yes but it doesn't take fine motor skills. I could turn on the lights by sweeping my hand across the switch or use my finger tip either way the lights will come on. And as far the trigger pull and the weight behind it seems your argument is about accuracy, mine is not. I won't make a foolish statement and say accuracy is not important because it is, just like shot placement ,but if a person is right in front of me or within 5-7 feet the weight won't mean a thing.

But I do appreciate the dialogue and respect your opinion.

 

[DELL6380]

I'm not going to get into the argument about which is better as everyone has their preferences. I'll state MY PREFERENCES here and tell you why.

I'm a big fan of DA/SA guns. I shot revolvers for years and i'm use to the long trigger pull. Adapting to SA for the second round took exactly one mag with my 229. I like the first pull to be long. It's a built in safety that doesn't need to be turned off an kind of a warning that says "hey, you really want to do this" before it goes bang. I also like the visual cue that the hammer gives you. For carry you just have to make sure the gun is staged exactly the same everytime. For me that is one in the pipe, hammer down.

I've never trusted SA guns. I owned a 1911 for a couple of years and liked shooting it at the range WHEN it ran but never felt like I could carry it. I'm well aware of finger discipline and muscle memory but I just never felt comfortable with that gun and would never let anyone else shoot it. A friend once asked to borrow it for a class he was taking. His gun was out having something fixed and it was a last minute deal so I consider it. The class covered drawing from concealment, firing, reloads etc. Before letting him take it I ask him if he ever handled a SA before and he said sure.. We practiced a couple of draws, point, drop safety, shoot and every time he pulled the trigger when he flipped the safety off. This was a guy I had been shooting with for 10 yrs and had owned many guns in his life. Needless to say I sent him with my 226.

I'm fine with DAO as well. Again, coming from revolvers there is no real change. Trigger is the same every time but I still prefer DA/SA. Also like the second strike feature on some DAO models. I feel they are safer for the average guy and lets face it. Most gun owners do not shoot as much as they need should.

Don't want to get too far off topic here but I'm also not a fan of striker fired guns. Yes they work just fine but I'm not comfortable walking around with the firing pin cocked, semi cocked etc. I know the odds are better that I'll win the lottery than have a striker fired gun discharge on it's own but I'm not taking the chance. Again.. Great range gun but won't carry one.

I've seen a few negligent discharges in my life and four of those were 1911's where someone grabbed the gun and either dropped the safety and pulled the trigger or the safety wasn't on and fired. One other was a single action revolver and the last was a Glock that fired when the slide was racked and finger off the trigger which supposedly can't happen yet I watched a friend do it. After a trip back to Glock they said the gun was fine. It was sold upon return.

I'm not going to recommend one trigger over the other. It's your preference and your gun. For me DA/SA is my first choice then DAO. I'll never carry a SA or striker fired gun. I am just a accurate with the DA first shot as I am SA follow ups. You do have to practice with whatever you are going to carry and get your routine down. For instance I never thumb the hammer for the first shot so I would not do this in a panic situation.. It's all about training.

 

[rogelk]

I own two DA/SA handguns. I own them because they are the best built, most reliable, highest quality pistols ever made (IMO). Aside from a handguns intended purpose as a weapon, I am a firearms enthusiast. These guns satisfy my appreciation for well built firearms. They are a SIG P229 and a Beretta 92FS. If I had the time, effort and resources to be an expert with these type of handguns, one of them would be my primary weapon for self defense. Because, I don’t have the time and resources to be an expert with them, I own a striker-fired (style) pistol (or single action type may be a more accurate description) as my choice for self defense. That being an XDM compact. For my purpose, it offers simplicity under a stressful situation and the best safety system on the market, again my opinion. I don’t care for Glock type systems because they have no secondary safety for snags or someone grabbing at you in either a friendly manner or a struggle with a BG. And, I don’t equate Glock systems to revolvers, Glocks have a much lighter pull than revolvers.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@ftd: Well the name of the thread is DA/SA vs other. So I am comparing the DA/SA design to all other designs. Because some people think a Glock is unsafe, some people think you will forget to flick the safety off, and some people think that DAOs are unwieldy with their heavy, long trigger pull on every shot (however... I am not going to defend DAOs with heavy triggers... just ones with triggers between 5 and 7 lbs). I believe at least one of those designs will cover all requirements that many people have for a carry gun without being a DA/SA.

It seems to me that your real issue is not DA/SA vs. SA only, but the capability of being able to carry your weapon cocked and locked. If that capability exists in a gun that you otherwise like, do you really care if it is a DA/SA rather than SA only?

If you can carry your DA/SA like a SAO (FNX series comes to mind) then I think that is perfectly fine. Your first shot will be single action after you flick off the safety and all of your other shots will be single action also. No consistency issues, no transition, and a light, short trigger pull. Excellent. (I have other issues with the FNX series but I won't get into those unless you guys want to know).

But, some people don't trust safeties. 'You'll forget...' they say. And, I can't counter that point because I can see that happening. But there are still two designs "left" strikers and DAOs.

Don't want a safety? Striker or DAO
Don't want a crappy trigger pull? SAO or DAO (striker fire guns are not that bad guys.)
Don't want a long trigger pull? SAO or Striker

DA/SA? Well it is a DAO and an SA combined without the safety.
No safety? Check.
Good trigger? Check (well kinda... its long and heavy on the first shot).
No long trigger pull? No... you kinda always have a long trigger pull on the first shot unless you thumb the hammer back... but you won't always have the time to thumb the hammer back. So I see the DA/SA as a "combinational-compromise" that accomplishes nothing not to mention making the gun more complex and require more skill to use.

@gunsavy:

But I don't think I would consider pulling trigger a fine motor skill (is there a proper way) yes but it doesn't take fine motor skills.

Fine motor skills require the use of smaller muscle groups to perform tasks that are precise in nature (pulling the trigger with the small muscles in your hand).

Gross motor skills require the use of large muscle groups to perform tasks (walking, balancing, crawling).

There is a proper way to pull a trigger and an improper way to pull a trigger but either way you are using your fine motor skills (small muscle group). And, fine motor skills suffer under stress (no matter what you are going to shoot worse). However, the simpler/easier it is to pull off an accurate shot to begin with means that you will be more successful with a trigger that isn't long and breaks at 10 lbs.

I could turn on the lights by sweeping my hand across the switch or use my finger tip either way the lights will come on.

Unfortunately you do not have the option to pull the trigger by slapping it open-palmed due to the trigger guard. I suppose you could hold the gun with one hand and stick your finger inside the trigger guard and then pull the trigger with your entire arm but I doubt that would result in an accurate shot.

I won't make a foolish statement and say accuracy is not important because it is, just like shot placement ,but if a person is right in front of me or within 5-7 feet the weight won't mean a thing.

I agree that you could have a 20lb trigger and probably still hit someone at 5-7 feet very quickly.

But, what about the conflict that begins at 7 yards? I would feel at a disadvantage if someone was threatening me with a gun at that distance and my first shot had to be a DA shot. That's the thing... other actions don't have the accuracy and "readiness penalty" (despite the DA/SA lacking a safety). You aren't ready to be accurate as possible all the time. Unless you are just as good with DA (I'm not... so that is where it turns into "it depends").

@DELL6380:

I'm not going to get into the argument about which is better as everyone has their preferences.

I'm not arguing. I'm trying to have a discussion.

...and every time he pulled the trigger when he flipped the safety off.

I have seen people forget to flick off the safety but I have not seen someone instinctively try to do two actions at once (flick off the safety and pull the trigger... which means his finger was inside the trigger guard before he took the safety off and that is a no-no). If he had proper trigger discipline his finger wouldn't be on the trigger until after he took the safety off. I said much earlier in this thread that it seems like some people who like DA/SA don't understand proper trigger discipline.

I feel they are safer for the average guy and lets face it. Most gun owners do not shoot as much as they need should.

I agree that most gun owners don't shoot enough... but that is a training failure on the shooter's part and not really something a gun can compensate for. A gun can't shoot the bad guy for you. A DA/SA or a DAO would do fine (DA/SA isn't the only thing that accomplishes that). And, honestly, the 1911 wasn't unsafe for him either... he just wouldn't group very well with it. He didn't shoot his leg or the ground... he combined flicking the safety off with pulling the trigger after the gun was already on target.

Yeah I have problems with my 1911 feeding properly very rarely. I hate how the guide rod smashes the metal from the barrel in the way of the link so that it doesn't rotate freely because the metal is slightly raised, and I don't like how the feed ramp hands the bullet off to the barrel... the feed ramp should just be on the barrel (yup... that is the next upgrade I'm getting for my 1911).

I know the odds are better that I'll win the lottery than have a striker fired gun discharge on it's own but I'm not taking the chance. Again.. Great range gun but won't carry one.

On a Glock, M&P, XD(M), etc. even if the trigger bar (or equivalent) completely disappeared due to magic... the firing pin block would prevent the striker from contacting the primer (there would be nothing to deactivate the firing pin block... the gun could not shoot. And on a 1911, for example, the holster protects the trigger, the grip safety deactivates the trigger and the thumb safety locks the hammer in place (correct me if I'm wrong I'm not super familiar with exactly how the safety mechanisms work on a 1911).

I've seen a few negligent discharges in my life and four of those were 1911's where someone grabbed the gun and either dropped the safety and pulled the trigger or the safety wasn't on and fired. One other was a single action revolver and the last was a Glock that fired when the slide was racked and finger off the trigger which supposedly can't happen yet I watched a friend do it. After a trip back to Glock they said the gun was fine. It was sold upon return.

1911s: They intentionally grabbed the gun (in a way to deactivate the grip safety), they intentionally flicked the safety off, and they intentionally put their finger in the trigger guard before confirming that they were pointed at a target and they made the conscious decision to flick the safety off and fire? Really? Maybe they should learn to not grab guns by the trigger. Even if the gun was a DAO or a DA/SA I would smack them hard for putting their fingers on the trigger before they were pointed down range and ready to fire. That is just stupid. Wait... grabbed the guns? So the guns were just sitting around loaded? They didn't clear the gun when they set it down? I know this is being a little anal... but you shouldn't leave guns loaded at the range when you aren't personally in control of the gun. Because... someone could just stroll up to check out your gun and then AD it... which seems to be what happened.

SA Revolver: Are you serious? A SA revolver can only be fired by cocking the hammer back manually for every shot. Loading it doesn't cock the hammer... shooting it doesn't cock the hammer. Apparently I don't want to be anywhere near the guy using that SA revolver because he is an idiot. It is hard as hell to AD a SA revolver.

Glock: That is impossible. While the slide is cycling there is no load on the striker spring (the striker spring makes the striker hit the primer). When the slide comes to a rest as the gun finishes seating the round in the chamber there is only a slight load on the striker spring. The trigger bar and the firing pin block are in the way and the striker can't hit the primer. So, I pretty much don't believe you. Especially considering the people around you found ways to AD 1911s and even a SA revolver.

It's all about training.

I agree.

@rogelk:

I don’t care for Glock type systems because they have no secondary safety for snags or someone grabbing at you in either a friendly manner or a struggle with a BG.

I agree. I really like XD(M)s. I don't like how they used a roll pin to secure the striker. Roll pins are meant to go in and stay in... I like to clean my striker channel regularly... so that is a no-go for me. However, I really do like the grip safety and ergonomics on the XD(M). Sweet guns.

But, how will the Glock's trigger get pulled while it is in a holster?

 

[tahoe2]

imag

I always start my DA/SA with one in the pipe and decocked, safety on. Interesting you mentioned HK, that is my home defense & concealed carry gun.
As for under stress; I hope I am up to the task, if "God Forgive" it should ever happen. That is why I continually practice the craft. As for my revolvers they are usually fired in SA mode for hunting(better shot placement), but I carry the DA/SA revolver in bear country along with my rifle, just in case.