DA/SA Trigger drills

I expierienced first hand what happens with first and second shot when in DA/SA mode, while under some pretty intense stress during a competition many years ago. Despite having trained religiously to become proficient with DA/SA I still had problems in crunch time. Well years ago, I was in a circle of guys at the range and one of the guys says that under higher pressure situations the brain will automatically give your trigger finger the same pressure to fire the second shot that was required for the first. I didn't ask if he was a brain doctor but he was a hellavu shot. One of the few that I couldn't beat with my amount of training. One of those guys on the next level so to speak.

David Armstrong, Having researched over 10,000 shootings could your data provide a clue as to whether DA/SA hit ratio's are better or worst than DAO/SAO hit ratio's?






I worried about this DA/SA thing for a long time before finally saying the heck with it and trying the Glock line of pistols. The Glock has been my defensive handgun since. So I must say thanks to the DA/SA problem for allowing me to give the Glock a chance.
 
I am firmly on record as believing the DA/SA trigger to be possibly the best answer ever to a non-existent problem

But that is simply my own opinion arrived at after owning a lot of DA autos

If it works for you then great...real happy for you

You are probably smarter and/or more talented than I:D

What I really hate seeing is all the people that

1. Never practice the DA pull or transistion

2. People who "prep the trigger" on the DA pull

Unfortunately there are far too many that choose the DA auto over some perceived increase in "safety" and then simply "work around" that safety
 
If I ever, for some ungodly reason, abandon my Glock's, my next choice would be the 1911. I would rather deal with having to snicker the safety off the cocked and locked pistol than worry about the DA/SA problem. You gotta hit to win.
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned shot-cocking yet.
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Not even a consideration. You are legally and morally responsible for every shot that goes down range. "Throwing" one goes against even the most basic rules of gun safety.

This thread has drifted so far off topic that I'm beginning to think it has surpassed it's useful life.

The question was what drills do you use to help learn trigger control of the DA/SA?

If you want to debate whether DA/SA is good or bad, please start another thread. Thanks.
 
The question was what drills do you use to help learn trigger control of the DA/SA?
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Thanks for getting us back on topic. Back when a PPK was my primary gun, My practice drill at the range was real simple.

1. De-cock the hammer.
2. Shoot 2 (or 3). The first one was the crunchy PPK DA shot. The 2nd (and third) were the delightful SA pull.

That's where I got my "miss, miss, hit" slogan! After some practice, I got better. But I'm still better with my DAO, now. I'm sure I would be even better with a 1911 or a Hi-Power with the mag safety removed.
 
Garret,

The question was what drills do you use to help learn trigger control of the DA/SA?
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I don't believe it can be truely mastered under the stress of a gunfight for the reasons listed above.

If you want to make yourself feel trained, dryfire practice alot and everyday working on the DA pull as it is the bad one. Then move to the range and shoot multiple two shot strings at the end of your session every trip. Raise and fire DA then SA as fast as possible while still hitting. Thats pretty much all you can do. Good luck.
 
I don't like going from DA to SA either but I practice the transition every range visit. Although it can be awkward, I don't see why both shots can't be right where you want them.
 
And, yes, proper training will eventually mitigate the problem.
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I carried a Smith 645 as a duty weapon for years, and the DA/SA is somewhat of a handicap, but not an unsurmountable one.

As Erick says, training and practice.

I started off with slow, well-sighted double taps to the target at 15 yds, decock, and do the drill again, and again, and again, until I could pick up a little speed, but still maintaining accuracy. Once I started getting comfortable with it, I increased the number of rounds per drill up to 5. First one DA, next 4 SA. All of this time, I'm not only decreasing the time between shots, I'm developing that muscle memory for varying situations. It works; try it.

I takes time, ammo, & practice, but it can be done.
 
For those that don't believe training overcomes stress, you obviously haven't been in the military. That's exactly why the military trains the way they do and as much as they do. They, more than anyone, understand what stress does to you. And they understand that extensive and repetitive training is the only way to overcome it. Under stress you will revert to what you are comfortable with...and constant training, and a LOT of it, makes you comfortable.

If you only go to the range once or twice a month and fire 100 or 200 rounds or so, you can't expect to develop the muscle memory necessary to handle the DA/SA transition especially under stress. You overcome it by training constantly. Train until you're sick of training, then train some more. Both dry fire and range fire.

I'm still in the process of developing this muscle memory, but my regimen is to dry fire while watching TV every night and I go to the range once, if not twice, a week. Yesterday I went through 250 rounds. I can't say I'm completely happy with my results as I kept about 40% of my shots within the 10 ring and 90% of my shots within the 5 ring at 30 feet, but I can measure my progress week to week, so I know I'm improving.

The answer to the question posed by this thread is simple: Train, train constantly and consistently, train until your sick of training, then train some more.
 
Erick,
And, yes, proper training will eventually mitigate the problem.
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DoubleD,
Under stress you will revert to what you are comfortable with...and constant training, and a LOT of it, makes you comfortable.
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I agree that practice and lots of it allows you to react even under stress in what some call autopilot. The condition of doing as trained without thinking. What I'm trying to tell you guys is that in my expeirience and the expierience of a few others, the autopilot mode doesn't apply to how the trigger finger and brain work while under pressure. Why could myself and others overcome the DA/SA transition after much practice both dryfire and live fire in training, yet when the stress of mere competition was added ,the same first shot to second shot deviation was back? This problem was disgussed by several shooters one of which is so good that he would make most of us envious. He had the same problem and concluded that in autopilot the brain must send the same pressure needed for the finger to fire the first round to the second. I agreed because it happened to both of us and his training was obviously more often than mine (just from his abilities). He changed to the 1911 as a result and I the Glock.

Once you guys become proficient with the da/sa transition shoot the most stressful match you can find, then report if you had the same success as your training. We could be wrong but some awefully good shooters had the same problems. Enough problems to change guns.
 
Threegun,
Why could myself and others overcome the DA/SA transition after much practice both dryfire and live fire in training, yet when the stress of mere competition was added ,the same first shot to second shot deviation was back?
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Don't get me wrong here. I don't for one moment think that I'll EVER be as consistent with my Sig DA/SA as I am with my Glock, regardless of the amount of practice I have. I only want to be "proficient enough" to have it as a carry weapon...and that's for other personal considerations.

It's not about ND's or AD's, but I truly feel more comfortable with the idea that in an emergency situation I will have the DA pull as a "final check" on the action I'm about to take. It will undoubtedly take more effort, and possibly time, to make a good shot in DA than in SA, but I want it that way. Once I've committed to that first shot, the decision's been made and SA follow-up shots makes sense. Admittedly, most of this is personal pschology and everyone isn't likely to agree. But it makes me comfortable and that's all that really matters.

All I hope to achieve out of my training is a reasonably accurate first shot in a short period of time, followed by much more precise follow-on shots.
 
DoubleD, Fair enough. Remember I am only giving you guys a heads up. If you feel confident thats wonderful. I personally want every advantage in my favor which is why I chose to get rid of the DA/SA problem all together. It was the only problem that training couldn't fix for me (while under stress that is). When I found out others (including better shooters) had similar problems, problems that training couldn't fix under stress for them either, it was time to get rid of the problem.

Most on this board think that the problem I listed is BS and thats fine. One day, hopefully only at a competition, they will discover what I was talking about. Heck maybe the problem only afflicts a handful of shooters in the State of Florida, who knows.
 
Actually, I saw a quote by Pat Rogers that said of the armed proffesionals he trains he only sees a few DA autos and only in the hands of those that are required to use them by their employers.

Everyone else has SA or DAO

As to the original topic....practice....practice...practice

Nothing special...practice just like you would with SA or DAO...just make the transition part of every string

Decock and holster often
 
Threegun, I hope you don't take my, or anyone else's objection to your point of view as personal criticism. It's not meant to be.

What we are trying to point out to you is that you can't make the statement you made as an absolute. While it may be true in your case, there are plenty of examples to the contrary.

Ernest Langdon - multi time national shooting champion using Berettas or Sigs. Beat some of the best, all of whom were using 1911s or Glocks. That's just the most obvious example re: competition.

Someone mentioned the military - The British SAS, The US Navy Seals, two examples of units using Sig P226s. I would venture to say that these folks are pretty competent with the DA trigger.
 
Garrett, I don't take 99.9 percent of our debate personal. We are here to learn and debate. If you go back and read my post, my problem was the DA/SA transition under stress only. I had my beretta 92 licked in practice only to crap out under the stress of competition. It was only the stinking DA/SA that plagued me. The reason I posted my problem was because it was an unknown problem that only surfaced while under intense pressure. Had it not been for talking to other shooters with the same problem, I would have thought my training was insufficient.

Ernest Langdon probably doesn't expierience the same level of stress he did while early in his career. That is only speculation but might explain his ability to perform as in practice under tournament conditions. My problems came early in my competition shooting. I changed guns rather quickly once we pinpointed the possible problem. Only an unlucky few of us have been in actual gun battles. Hereing their stories indicates the highest stress levels they ever had. Some get auditory or visual changes. Others get slowed motion. Do yourselves a favor and try your firearm DA/SA mode while under pressure. If you still shoot like in practice with the da/sa you are way better than me and better than some very good aquantances of mine.
 
Garret, Also failure doesn't happen simply by missing your first shot, You can be successful and still pull that first shot low and push that second shot high. So the success of those elite units you descibed could have come despite the Da/Sa problem. All my target weren't misses in da/sa mode.

You are correct I shouldn't have made it sound absolute. As you can see my communication skills are lacking to say the least.
 
3gun, fair enough. I see where you are coming from now. You make a good point on the success vs. failure.

For me I define success as 5 shots at 5 yrds on a 5 inch circle in under 2.5 seconds. If I can get there I would consider it a success. I have a ways to go. ;)
 
Garrett, Five shots in a fire inch circle in 2.5 seconds is a good goal. Remember the badguy will be moving, possibly shooting back so that 5 inch circle will grow rapidly under pressure and with movement.
 
Remember the badguy will be moving,
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Me too. He who stands still attracts incoming fire.;)

that 5 inch circle will grow rapidly under pressure and with movement.
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Agreed. They will open up vertically and even more so horizontally. Thus the importance of mastering the trigger. Less likelihood of a total miss, and more likely to at least keep the shots in the upper chest area.
 
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