DA/SA Trigger drills
- Thread starter garrettwc
- Start date
The guy that sold Glock 22's to our local police service told me that when he was giving his sales pitch, that was one point that he impressed upon the brass. They bought it.
The best advice I can give is to shoot controlled pairs, decock, holster or low ready and repeat. Don't be in a rush to get the next set off. Then work on 3 shots. Don't stage the trigger on the DA shot. Make it one continuous press. Good luck. Hope it helps.
I use the same pitch on customers when selling a Glock. The da to sa transition is a serious disadvantage. It is aggravated by two things, limited practice and stress. With tons of practice time focusing on first shot da next shot sa you can get very good with it. During a stressful encounter the brain usually reverts back to training. Now when pulling the trigger under stress the brain will accept the weight and lenght of the da pull, then cause you shoot the second shot earlier as it tries to duplicate the da pull. It has happened to me at matches despite a training regiment specifically designed to overcome it. I believe it is one of the factors in the dismal hit ratio for LE. It was a big factor in my switch to Glock pistols so long ago. Good luck.
The British Soldier
New member
I experienced a similar predicament when I transitioned from the Browning to SIG P226 in military service; that DA trigger pull was unusual but smooth. Tork's post nailed the drill perfectly; we are trained to fire 'double taps' from the first day we pick up a pistol. It's easy with an SA pistol. With the P226 we would fire one DA, one SA and then decock. That repetition is the only way to learn the way to shoot it, so that you expect the light pull second time around.
It is most applicable for the first double tap during an engagement, as you have drawn the pistol and are engaging the first 'target'. Thereafter, of course, you have the remainder of the magazine on SA only.
A skill to be acquired and honed, because I imagine that you would probably hope to only fire one double tap - after that it should be all over and your opponent would be looking at the sky wondering what happened.
It is most applicable for the first double tap during an engagement, as you have drawn the pistol and are engaging the first 'target'. Thereafter, of course, you have the remainder of the magazine on SA only.
A skill to be acquired and honed, because I imagine that you would probably hope to only fire one double tap - after that it should be all over and your opponent would be looking at the sky wondering what happened.
While the Glock sales pitch is appreciated, that's not the topic of this thread. It's about putting more rounds downrange in practice, not buying a new gun.
Thanks, Brit Soldier. That's more like it. So you guys went straight to double taps? Did you start slow (i.e. fire the DA shot then feel for the reset and fire the second SA shot) or did you go straight to double taps (two quick shots)?
I gotta call bull feathers on this one. Unless someone can convince me that guys like Ernest Langdon winning all those matches with Berettas and Sigs was a fluke.
Thanks, Brit Soldier. That's more like it. So you guys went straight to double taps? Did you start slow (i.e. fire the DA shot then feel for the reset and fire the second SA shot) or did you go straight to double taps (two quick shots)?
Great thread!
I have the same issues with my P220. I love the gun but my first DA pull is usually off target, while the remaining SA are dead on. I practice just as British Soldier said, DA and then SA, then decock and start over.
This is why I'm looking to purchase the new Sig 220 SAO, all the benifits of the SA 1911 with the reliability of the Sig 220.
I have the same issues with my P220. I love the gun but my first DA pull is usually off target, while the remaining SA are dead on. I practice just as British Soldier said, DA and then SA, then decock and start over.
This is why I'm looking to purchase the new Sig 220 SAO, all the benifits of the SA 1911 with the reliability of the Sig 220.
You can practice until blue in the face, when the stress hits and autopilot is engaged, your second shot will be high. Your brain is going to subconsciously give the trigger finger the same pressure it took to fire the previous shot, given the lighter and shorter weight and pull of the SA, your second shot will pop prematurely. Practice will correct the problem up and until your brain goes on autopilot (when you are reacting without thinking). I had it happen to me under match stress when I first started shooting competition.
Of course I could be wrong and the problem was my training. Five days a week dryfire practice to work on da mode( and other drills at work). Weekly range practice with the final 40 rounds being fired as double taps hammer down, reload double tap sa. Thats 10 transitions from da to sa in rapid double tap mode. 20 reloads and 10 sa double taps. Almost every week for a year. It helped but not on auotpilot so I sold my 92. So many people have similar problems that it can't be lack or training.
Of course I could be wrong and the problem was my training. Five days a week dryfire practice to work on da mode( and other drills at work). Weekly range practice with the final 40 rounds being fired as double taps hammer down, reload double tap sa. Thats 10 transitions from da to sa in rapid double tap mode. 20 reloads and 10 sa double taps. Almost every week for a year. It helped but not on auotpilot so I sold my 92. So many people have similar problems that it can't be lack or training.
The British Soldier
New member
I have never really got along with DAO triggers. I was involved in a trial in Northern Ireland with the Police, who were looking for something to replace their Ruger .357 revolvers. They had a SIG P228 DAO and a Glock 19 with the New York Plus (18lb) trigger; the SIG was 14lb trigger and smooth, the Glock was heavy and I dislike the additional weight having used a normal Glock.
I found it very difficult to double tap quickly with either pistol, but especially the SIG DAO. This was early 90s, so I trust they have improved.
I feel for those NYPD fellas who have to pull those triggers - they must work out to shoot!
I found it very difficult to double tap quickly with either pistol, but especially the SIG DAO. This was early 90s, so I trust they have improved.
I feel for those NYPD fellas who have to pull those triggers - they must work out to shoot!
Hi garrettwc,
I love the DA/SA trigger; I think it's the best carry/combat trigger.
Initially I have a hard time w/ the first DA shot, but now I'm fine w/
either DA or SA.
The way I practice is to dry fire lots in DA. I found trigger pull
positions for each pistol such that the DA and SA shots both
put my finger on the same trigger location. E.g. for HK it's somewhere
near the bottom "J" hook part of the trigger.
Also, at the range, I do a few more DA shots where the gun is decocked
often.
I love the DA/SA trigger; I think it's the best carry/combat trigger.
Initially I have a hard time w/ the first DA shot, but now I'm fine w/
either DA or SA.
The way I practice is to dry fire lots in DA. I found trigger pull
positions for each pistol such that the DA and SA shots both
put my finger on the same trigger location. E.g. for HK it's somewhere
near the bottom "J" hook part of the trigger.
Also, at the range, I do a few more DA shots where the gun is decocked
often.
DunedinDragon
New member
Because my P220 is my primary carry gun I'm religious about getting used to the DA/SA trigger pull when I'm shooting at the range.
My typical regimen is to load the P220 with 8 +1. That gives me three series of three shots. To keep track of my accuracy I use three 8 1/2 x 11 targets that I print out and tape them in a 'V' pattern of top left, center low, top right over my target (you could probably just as easily use paper plates). I generally take my targets out to 30 feet and fire three series of three shots, decocking after each series and going to low ready. To make it more realistic I focus on speed with my first shot (DA) and accuracy with my next two. I too have to make a minor adjustment in my shooting hand position between DA and SA, but it doesn't really affect me too much. I'm in the process of replacing my P220 stock trigger with the short trigger which should alleviate that problem.
Because my P220 is still relatively new to me I'm still in the process of building muscle memory for the DA/SA trigger pull, but I can say I feel very comfortable after just a few weeks of practicing with my ability to control my shots through this transition. I think it helps that I do have a DA pistol that I occassionally carry as well and have learned to shoot DA pretty accurately. It takes a bit more concentration to hold the sight picture steady during the long pull, but I do a LOT of dry firing as well.
My typical regimen is to load the P220 with 8 +1. That gives me three series of three shots. To keep track of my accuracy I use three 8 1/2 x 11 targets that I print out and tape them in a 'V' pattern of top left, center low, top right over my target (you could probably just as easily use paper plates). I generally take my targets out to 30 feet and fire three series of three shots, decocking after each series and going to low ready. To make it more realistic I focus on speed with my first shot (DA) and accuracy with my next two. I too have to make a minor adjustment in my shooting hand position between DA and SA, but it doesn't really affect me too much. I'm in the process of replacing my P220 stock trigger with the short trigger which should alleviate that problem.
Because my P220 is still relatively new to me I'm still in the process of building muscle memory for the DA/SA trigger pull, but I can say I feel very comfortable after just a few weeks of practicing with my ability to control my shots through this transition. I think it helps that I do have a DA pistol that I occassionally carry as well and have learned to shoot DA pretty accurately. It takes a bit more concentration to hold the sight picture steady during the long pull, but I do a LOT of dry firing as well.
armedandsafe
New member
I dislike the DA/SA/decock drill. When under stress, the brain will run about screaming and whimpering, while the muscles just go on and do as they are trained. I prefer breaking the training into several drills. I'll load a few mags with 2 and some others with more. Then I get the reload practice and the DA/SA intermixed. I have a tip-over target with a fairly heavy spring, so it (usually) takes two quick hits to tip it over. This works well for the doubletap practice and gives me a good signal to stop shooting and safe the weapon. YMMV
Pops
Pops
In overview...
When I was permitted, I carried an H&K USP40. I have the variant one; DA/SA and manual safety override in the cocked position. My self-training was to carry hammer down to satisfy the management. In reality I would use the DA function for close shots under extreme stimulation. For all other shots, I would thumb cock the pistol, engage the safety and proceed as a SA only pistol. Obviously, for subsequent to primary shots, the gun would be in SA mode and the safety was available for movement or handcuffing or whatever.
Truthfully, I’ve never gotten good at it, let alone mastered it. I’ve been shooting 1911s and DA revolvers all my life; so it’s possible I just don’t see the need for the technique AND I’m an old dog.garrettwc said:
There is a hidden – and false – assumption in this process. The assumption is a cocked and locked pistol is more dangerous than a ‘hammer down’ pistol.Talon66 said:
This training regimen and theory somewhat ignores the fact the first shot fired is the most important. A handgun is used in self-defense under circumstances of limited foreknowledge. One uses a handgun when other options are not viable for some reason, usually of circumstance – limited mobility, waiting in the chow line, other duties precluding use of a rifle. Secondly, it ignores the possibility of movement after the first shot; is one to move with a cocked and unlocked pistol? Doing the ‘safe thing’ and de-cocking mandates another first DA shot, doesn’t it? I always get a laugh out of those who feel ‘cocked and locked in a holster’ is unsafe, but ‘cocked, unlocked and running’ is acceptable.The British Soldier said:
I can shoot a DA revolver (S&W, that is) with great rapidity and accuracy. I have one (S&W) DAO autopistol. While I can shoot it fairly well, rapid shots are – well – slow. It just does not handle as fast as a decent revolver.The British Soldier said:
That is the configuration I am mandated to carry. It really isn’t ‘bad’, but it could be much better.The British Soldier said:
This is the crux of the problem; dealing with two distinct trigger pulls in rapid order. And I agree, a S&W revolver is delightful in DA mode.threegun said:
Why do you think DA/SA is superior to SA, Condition One? You’re not the only one who likes the multiple personality trigger; but why do you like it?j1132s said:
When I was permitted, I carried an H&K USP40. I have the variant one; DA/SA and manual safety override in the cocked position. My self-training was to carry hammer down to satisfy the management. In reality I would use the DA function for close shots under extreme stimulation. For all other shots, I would thumb cock the pistol, engage the safety and proceed as a SA only pistol. Obviously, for subsequent to primary shots, the gun would be in SA mode and the safety was available for movement or handcuffing or whatever.
I carry either a Beretta 92FS or a Taurus .357 CIA revolver. I carry the 92 with one in the pipe, hammer down, no safety. I practice this way. No memory transition depending on which weapon I have.
My practice drills are to draw, acquire target, 2 COM 1 head, move, repeat. Doesn't matter which weapon, muscle memory is the same. I practice at 21 feet in self-defense senarios. Cars, walls, etc. I just started loading a snap cap in the mag of the 92 to simulate a FTF/mag jam. My first rep wasn't all that swift on the reload. But I will try to concentrate on this some more.
My practice drills are to draw, acquire target, 2 COM 1 head, move, repeat. Doesn't matter which weapon, muscle memory is the same. I practice at 21 feet in self-defense senarios. Cars, walls, etc. I just started loading a snap cap in the mag of the 92 to simulate a FTF/mag jam. My first rep wasn't all that swift on the reload. But I will try to concentrate on this some more.
I've been carrying - and shooting only 1911s for several years now. When my main carry pistol had to go in for work, I started carrying my old Ruger P85 (If I miss, I can club them with it). I've never been able to shoot it that well, and after going SAO, I've never tried again.
After a few dozen rounds SA to get used to the feel if the giant grip again, I was appalled at how poorly and inconsistently I was shooting. In frustration I started shooting DA/SA. The DA pull is so hard there's nothing for it but a good solid jerk. I was expecting the miss/hit/hit... syndrome. I was amazed to discover that I could consistently keep DA shots inside a 3" group at 7 yds! Much better than my SA trigger control on that gun.
I'm picking up another 1911 today so I can go back to what I'm used to, but it was all very interesting.
Joe
After a few dozen rounds SA to get used to the feel if the giant grip again, I was appalled at how poorly and inconsistently I was shooting. In frustration I started shooting DA/SA. The DA pull is so hard there's nothing for it but a good solid jerk. I was expecting the miss/hit/hit... syndrome. I was amazed to discover that I could consistently keep DA shots inside a 3" group at 7 yds! Much better than my SA trigger control on that gun.
I'm picking up another 1911 today so I can go back to what I'm used to, but it was all very interesting.
Joe
My personal experience with DA/SA reinforces the "miss, hit hit" slogan. In fact, with me, its more like "miss, miss, hit.".
That stiff DA pull tends to make my first shot fly. But then the lighter 2nd shot tends to be off, too, because I'm not fully aligned when the lighter trigger breaks. 3rd shot I get it right.
I fully believe that folks who practice that a lot can get good at it. I have practiced it some, and I can see improvement. But right now, both my carry guns are DAO and I really like the consistency. I get consistent results when I shoot, so what's not to like?
Jeff Cooper calls DA/SA pistols "crunchentickers". Crunch for the first DA shot, and ticks for the rest. He likes 1911's better....
I must admit the fine single-action pull of a good 1911 is about as good as pitsol triggers get. But personally, I like a good DAO trigger better than the inconsisteny of a "crunchenticker."
That stiff DA pull tends to make my first shot fly. But then the lighter 2nd shot tends to be off, too, because I'm not fully aligned when the lighter trigger breaks. 3rd shot I get it right.
I fully believe that folks who practice that a lot can get good at it. I have practiced it some, and I can see improvement. But right now, both my carry guns are DAO and I really like the consistency. I get consistent results when I shoot, so what's not to like?
Jeff Cooper calls DA/SA pistols "crunchentickers". Crunch for the first DA shot, and ticks for the rest. He likes 1911's better....
I must admit the fine single-action pull of a good 1911 is about as good as pitsol triggers get. But personally, I like a good DAO trigger better than the inconsisteny of a "crunchenticker."
I'm surprised no one has mentioned shot-cocking yet. [Flame Suit=ON]
I don't practice this myself (mainly because I have not DA/SA semi-autos on my CCW) but there is the controvertial method of "throwing" your first (DA) shot at your target as fast as possible, getting you into highly controlled SA shooting faster. For those who don't spend enough time to master that DA shot, or simply can't, shot-cocking can be a way to get your gun from Condition 2 to Condition 1 in a hurry.
I don't practice this myself (mainly because I have not DA/SA semi-autos on my CCW) but there is the controvertial method of "throwing" your first (DA) shot at your target as fast as possible, getting you into highly controlled SA shooting faster. For those who don't spend enough time to master that DA shot, or simply can't, shot-cocking can be a way to get your gun from Condition 2 to Condition 1 in a hurry.