DA "Cheating" at the Range

One thing that I've started doing when practicing my "shooting from carry mode" is make my double taps three shots. I carry a DA/SA so I've been practicing getting off a quick shot (getting out of DA into SA) with a traditional double tap follow up. Doing it this way generally keeps all three in a fist sized area at 10 yards which I figure is plenty accurate if TSHTF.
 
I had just purchased my first pistol, a Ruger P95DC, and was practicing with it at the range when my friend suggested (nay insisted) that I spend some time practicing firing DA. With the decocker it was easy to go through a whole magazine DA. I found that my focus improved considerably when I practiced firing DA, and that this increased focus carried over somewhat to firing SA. I agree completely that if you're going to carry a pistol that typically fires its first shot DA, you need to spend some time firing it DA. The gap between that first and second shot could be critical.

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"Those who would sacrifice liberty in the name of security, deserve neither liberty nor security."
 
"That is why I think that, for instance, the Sig is a good paper puncher but not a good carry gun."

Get on the phone and let all the agencies and special teams that use SIG Sauers that they're carrying around paper punchers.
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Absolutely true, practice with what you carry. I do 50% of my range time in DA and the other 50% in SA. No problem getting everything right where it should be.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
"usually when i see LEOs at the range they are doing just what you were talking about: standing there shooting only SA."

Ain't that the truth.

It starts for some of us in academy. In my class I was the ONLY one to show up at the range with my vest on under my ordnance uniform. I was also the only one who REALLY used cover during our barricade shooting scenarios. I was also the only one to really *run* (not trot or walk kinda quickly) during our physical exertion courses. This earned me some chuckles and silly comments from classmates, and even from a few instructors.

But one old hand who had survived a real, honest-to-God shooting pulled me aside about mid-way through the training and said "Do it that way. Every time." And I have, every time.

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
I usually decock for the first round of each magazine at the range. Sometimes I'll decock for every other round in a mag to practice DS to SA transition. I think it's important to, at least, know what to expect.
 
I agree with Rainbow Six.

LEOs and serious pistol users should always decock for that first shot. Oleg reports that he decocked his Makarov for all fifty shots and his DA/SA score improved. It was a matter of training and Oleg put the effort into it.

When I train shooters, I have them master the DA trigger pull first. Once they've done that, then they're taught the transition from DA to SA. You can't afford to waste the first shot since it may be the one that saves your life or the life of another. The only "real" problem is that this can require more range time and effort on the part of the range staff. Some folks may never master the DA/SA trigger - which is why the DAO was developed for law enforcement.
 
Amen to all,

I've never had much of a problem with a DA/SA transition, but I have seen a lot of fellow MP's/Investigators/Agents make the same mistakes.

Regarding the comment on paper-punching and survival shooting, while you are correct, it should be pointed out that paper-punching or Slow Aimed Fire, is an important marksmanship skill if learned in conjunction with Combat shooting (Rapid Aimed Fire). I've seen guys who could put a lot of rounds on a target fast, but they were all over the place. I've also seen others who fire very rapidly and tightly. The only way to get there is a combination of paper-punching and combat shooting.

And we had all better worry about our first shot, because I don't want to live with a spouse's, child's, or neighbor's needless death on my conscience.

Train the way you fight,
Fight the way you train!

Chuck
 
Chuck,

I agree. In spite of Red Bulls comment about Sigs, I also agree with what he said to a point. He has probably shot a Sig or two and found it to be a problem for him. I have the same problem with transition with certain other DA semis. However, I believe that there are those who give a blanket assumption that all people with all DAs have this same problem. I'd like to point out to them, present company excluded, that peoples hands fit individual guns differently. What might be a problem for Bull, might be perfect for Chuck or Equalizer. Some of us find a gun we like and are willing to spend the time and practice to become proficient with the DA-SA transition. Others would rather spend their time with the 1911. Fine with me, (as if my opinion really matters), there is nothing wrong with either.

I think that some of us have already addressed the matter of the first shot and transition issues. BTW, I see absolutely nothing wrong with cocking the first shot if it can be done proficiently. Some of us can cock that first shot and do so just as consistantly with a Sig as with a 1911 thumb safety. The motor skills involved are not that much different in my own hand. This doesn't apply with every other DA, but it does with some.

The comment about "paper punching" doesn't get my dander up, but I have to say that some of those "paper punchers" DO make good carry choices and I've pulled the SA triggers on some Sigs that would rival those on most 1911 factory guns. IMHO, They are BOTH very good guns and suited to target AND combat in the right hands and with the right practice. Each has its strengths and drawbacks. That comes from a 1911 fan. John Browning was a genius.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
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"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
Why not use the middle finger to pull the trigger? It is the superior digit for doing that, both mechanically and for accuracy.

Of course, you also should be aiming with the index finger along the side of the gun to aim the gun if you are planning to shoot as you train in a real gunfight, because no one to my knowlege, has ever been caught on a car cam video using the sights to shoot with in a close quarters self defense gunfight.

And you also should train on shooting rapidly or dumping your gun rapidly with accuracy because that's what most of the shooters do in car cam videos of gunfights.

You should practice that a lot as their accuracy sucks, but then, you may not be able to do that, as rapid shooting is probably against your range rules.

So there you have it, guns that don't have a means for aiming them that is used in real time gunfights, trigger guards that don't allow easy access for the middle finger, and range rules that prevent you from shooting rapidly or dumping your gun in practice.

I suggest that if you can't shoot fast and accurately without using the sights, that when you are in trouble, you run like hell.

But then I have never been there, so what do I know?

I don't even know if car cam videos are real or just fakes.

They must be fakes, because no one ever mentions them as being a training tool that can be used to show shooters what actually happens in real gunfights.

They are probably just another government plot hatched out in New Mexico somewhere to confuse shooters. But it's not working. No one ever pays attention to them.
 
The only problem that I can see with thumb cocking the first shot in a self defense situation is the probability of the body's fight or flight reaction and the associated loss of ability to perform fine motor skills. However, if you practice enough, maybe it's possible. It's just a possibility that I don't want to involve. Just my $.02.



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R6...aka...Chris
 
Those of you that think the first shot must be DA must have never heard of carrying Cocked and Locked before!?

LOTS of poorly designed DA's cannot be carried this way though.(Good reason why not to buy a RUGER DA)

What gives? I know if I want to kill something today, for sure, I mean all the way dead, real fast like, I want a SA trigger pull and the correspondingly better shot placement that comes with it.

If I'm gonna carry, it's cause I'm afraid for my life, so I'm gonna carry cocked and locked. DA is for grabbing a "stashed" firearm that you don't want to leave cocked or for handing to and idiot in a crisis and say "point this toward the enemy and pull trigger until it stops going bang!". -ddt
 
OKJOE,

reference the car cams. Many of us have said it elsewhere, but most shooters are trained to a very low standard. Thus the video is a representation of a shooter performing at a low standard. Many well trained shooters have used the sights in gunfights and performed well under stress. They are definitely used as a training tool, though. Many academies use them and the Calibre Press Street Survival seminar I attended used tons of them. They are very valuable.

The thing you quickly learn is that an officer's poor tactics get him killed a lot quicker than his inaccuracy. I'm certainly not slamming any of the fallen, they are teaching us lessons with their blood. It's tragic, but I'm sure they would want us to learn from their mistakes. Anyways, on most of the car cam videos, you see a LOT of mistakes. Watch Fox's World's Scariest Police Shootouts with a trained officer, and see all the mistakes made. First we identify, then we eliminate them (the mistakes).

I disagree with the middle finger being used as the trigger finger. Just off the top of my head, I can see problems with grip, which affects shot to shot recovery, and the index finger pointing is of dubious value. Just my $.02 worth.

For the record, I carried a USP 9 for a long time, hammer down. It was my first carry gun (though a little large) and my first time carrying concealed. As I grew more able and comfortable, I started carrying in Condition I and had no problems. In the job I'm in now, we are required to carry Sig 228's. Having qualified with it numerous times and done it correctly, without thumbing the hammer back (even ensuring the thumb break was secured), I've not had any problems with it. It does take some getting used to, but at the general gunfight range 0-7m, it's fine. If I were making a precision shot and had the time to do it, then I'd probably thumb cock, such as being behind cover and shooting at a distance of 15-25m. For a situation requiring me to draw and fire however, I think I'd have too much to worry about to thumb cock or some other such thing. To anyone who wants to train that way, run a stress course (safely please), and see how a theoretical technique hold up timed, with your heart pounding. That's not meant as a flame, just advice I've followed myself.

Chuck
 
Thumb cocking is not a worry, unnatural, and does not lead to fumbling, even under stress with near max heart rate IF one has a DA gun that lends itself to the users hand and he practices that way. Its really hardly different than thumbing off the safety on a 1911 if the above criteria are met. That's my point.

As to the arguements FOR 1911, they are valid inasfar as we keep in mind that some DAs are excellent in either mode, esp. with a good trigger job.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
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"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
I agree you need to practice the transition, however there are acceptable times to thumb cock the gun. I.E the bad guy is far away and you need the extra accuracy. Admittedly 99.99% of the time you will be shooting da first.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And you also should train on shooting rapidly or dumping your gun rapidly with accuracy because that's what most of the shooters do in car cam videos of gunfights. [/quote]
Thats the dumbest thing I have heard all week. OKAYJOE - I'm not trying to beat you up or make fun of you... dont take that the wrong way - but look at what you said. It's simply wrong. You have viewed a video and have made assumtions based on that video. That video ISNT showing you everything. No video could. Your missing a whole bunch.
Persective is important. Your not seeing AND feeling what the officer is seeing and feeling.
Unless you have been there... you just dont know.
 
As a follow up:

MOST car cam videos display poor shooting and tactics. Firing rapidly just to throw a lot of crap in the general direction of the BG is an example of this.

Now, I have never been there. Not once. And God help me, I hope I never am. But if I was there I would hope that I would have enough training to shoot like I train, fast-but-controlled, counting my shots, and not trying to turn my 4506 into a passing imitation of a full auto handgun.

When the feces strikes the air circulation unit, you revert to training. If you have little-to-no training, you just do what comes naturally. Like spray-and-pray.

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Guess what? I re-read my earlier post and it sounds sort of snotty. For that I apologize, sort of.

All I really was asking is:

HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN A REAL VIDEO OF ANYONE USING THE GUN SIGHTS AND SQUEEEEZING THE TRIGGER TO SHOOT IN A REAL TIME CLOSE QUARTERS GUNFIGHT WHEN BULLETS ARE FLYING???

or do all cops lose whatever training they have had when it comes to life and death shootings and the video camera is on.

Because, the only thing you see in videos is point and blast, and lots of it.

If one defaults to training in gunfights, as the train, train, train types like to keep saying over and over and over again, as though saying that will magically make something happen, then where is it? It must be like the emperor's new clothes. In the real world of us commoners, it is not to be seen. It isn't there. And you probably thought that story about someone buying invisible clothes, was just a fairy tale.

On the other hand, if the training is good, then all the cops are bad and can't remember the most critical element of their shooting training, or do you get it to have it both ways depending on how the wind is blowing.

I side with the guys on the street who are out there trying. They are just trying to do what they were told to do. I think we should be looking at the tellers, not the tellees..

I did not have to be in Mi Lia to know it happend, I saw the pictures in Life and Time. I also have seen atrocity films, and shooting videos, so I know they happened and what happened in a lot of cases.

Trainees should be taught what is is, and seen to really work in the real world. If the trainers don't know what works as verified by hard video evidence and not talk, they should at least have the honesty and integrity to say that, and then go with their conjecture as what might work until some proof of what works is found.

And if they already know what works, what is it, and where is their proof. If they talk the talk, they should be able to walk the walk??? Got any VIDEOS???

And that goes for DA or SA.

FIRST, FIND OUT WHICH ONE WORKS BETTER IN REAL TIME KILLING SITUATIONS, and then go with that for awhile. Then study it some more via car cam videos, and then "adjust your sights" as needed and based on real hard evidence.

Lastly, I get it from both sides, the cops and the shooters. Woe is me...

Not really, if these discussions end up saving some lives, that will be good.

EDITED 11:19 PST

[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited April 20, 2000).]
 
Most believe that you will react, or fight as you have trained. For better than TWO DECADES now, LE training has taught the core priciples that we all know: Front sight focus, double taps, stance, cover & concealment. To see poor overall performance in over 900+ videos, and then cry "training"?TOTAL cop-out(Pardon the pun). Sample 900 cops, and there would surely be rookies, "shooters", and lackluster ones among them.
The rookies have had modern training, and it's fresh in their "programming". The best shooters excel at the modern methods, and there are many of them in LE. Even the laziest of cops, with under 20 years in service, have been taught them. Since the only time most of them shoot is in "qualification", that is ALL they know. Any course of fire I've witnessed reinforces those core techniques, or at least the cadre does.
So, why the poor showing? Is the theory in the first sentence flawed? I say that it is. Under the frightening reality of lethal assault, our bodies revert to nature's programming. The BEST trained personnel can overcome this, to a certain extent. The level is different for everyone. But, why should we continue fo focus the bulk of our training efforts AGAINST our natural reactions? Why don't we re-direct ourselves toward ACCENTUATING the use of our natural defenses?
For example, since it is evident that most cops thrust their guns out toward the threat, why not go with the isoceles position in "training"? Since most cops focus on the THREAT(not the sights), let's shoot with them taped off, or removed from the slide. (Radical, I know!) Gunfights happen up-close, in darkness, let's change our "quals" to reflect this. SHORTER distances of fire on the range, at night.
Make no mistake, I'm not advocating the abandonment of the other methods. I just feel that they should no longer be our main focus. There will certainly still be times when a long-range shot may be needed with the handgun. Learn the sights. There is the rare protracted gunbattle requiring a reload of the pistol. Learn how to do so. But under the influence of time, and distance from the threat, we're not as likely to fall victim to our natural fright response. This training then, will hold up under "stress". What we need is, methods that work under fright.
I did not take to this change of heart overnight. I learned, lived, and later taught the modern methods myself. I chalked up the "failures" to pilot error, not flight instructor error. I wrestled for months with this, testing, talking, researching for myself. I know the "doctrine" has worked for an elite few: Gabe Suarez, Chuck Taylor, and other local cops I know of. But, all these folks had something in common, they were/are at the top of their game. It is selfish, and unrealistic to expect this of most officers. It behooves us to give the majority something of value. That which will last even if they don't wash it, polish it, or use it once in awhile.
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