DA "Cheating" at the Range

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Matt VDW

New member
I've noticed that many shooters of double action revolvers and pistols avoid using the DA feature at the range. With a revolver, they'll thumb cock the hammer for each shot; with a "crunchenticker" pistol, they'll just shoot the whole magazine in SA instead of decocking before the first shot.

Since many of these shooters buy their handguns for defensive use, I have to wonder if they buy them because of the much-touted safety advantage of a long, heavy DA trigger pull or in spite of it. What good does that DA trigger do if the shooter deliberately bypasses it?

I understand, of course, that the short, light trigger pull resulting from a cocked hammer makes hitting the target easier (and some of these folks need all the help they can get
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). But it's quite possible to shoot well with a DA trigger, given a little dedication and practice. The problem is, the novice has to be willing to shoot some ugly targets in the course of developing DA trigger control. Human nature being what it is, most folks take the easy way out and ignore the possibility that someday they might not have time to shoot anything but a quick DA shot. Nor do they seem to develop the respect for Rule 3 (Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot) that someone in a stressful situation with a cocked handgun requires.

Oh well... I suppose this is why DAO autos have become so popular with police.
 
Matt
The long DA trigger pull isn't a safety feature to me. Its just there. if I need my DA in a home defense situation, I know that I can just pull the trigger and get a shot off. I feel that getting that first shot off in enough to discourge he/she who has unlawfully entered my house. it its not, I know I can get them with the SA shots that are following it. Most likely, the only person entermy house unlawfully is a buglar.

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It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
http://yellowman.virtualave.net/
 
"they'll just shoot the whole magazine in SA instead of decocking before the first shot."

Decocking before the first shot?

I agree, though, that you should practice shooting from "carry mode."
 
Yes, de-cocking before the 1st shot. You've just chambered the gun, and the hammer is cocked. You*should*practice the DA to SA transition, over and over, repeatedly. Or, go with practicing Cond.#3,loaded mag w/empty chamber(Israeli style). Or, go to a SA design; otherwise, you're just cheating YOURSELF.
 
I did about 50 rounds with a Makarov decocking every time. My accuracy improved considerably both in DA and SA.

That's also why I like Glocks and striker-fired pistols: no transition. I have fired accidentally with Beretta 92 until I learned about the lighter SA after a hard DA.
 
An excellent point. I remember reading something a couple years ago that basicly said most LEOs miss with the first DA shot, but hit with the second SA shot. This is one of several reasons they are taught to double tap. Problem is that the first bullet is flying loose out there looking for something to hit.
I've seen many people at the range who shoot very well single action. However these same people are lucky to hit paper at 7yds DA. This is especially true of revolver shooters.
Practice with your gun in "carry" mode. Like its been said, you're only cheating yourself.

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TFL's official "Curmudgeon Member" and damned proud of it!
 
This is very much like the unhealthy practice of practicing with the latch unlatched on a holster that uses one (a thumb-break, etc.) or practicing with mild .38 wadcutters and then loading with full-house .357's for duty. The shooter who indulges in such self-delusional practices may get an ego-boost on the practice range, but he won't be inculcating the life-saving skills he will need in a fight.

Rosco
 
Probably the best way to practice DA is dry-fring at home. After you get to the point where you can pull the trigger without the front sight wandering all over the place, then you're ready to try it at the range. It's hard to do any real defensive practice at ranges that don't allow "rapid fire."

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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!
 
Matt:

I agree with you all the way. On good DA revolvers like a Smith or Cotl Python I have never understood why anyone shoots them SA to begin with. Interestingly enough, most master class shooters fire the 50 yard line in PPC double action even though they have the option of SA.
 
If you don't think a person can shoot well double action, you've never seen Jerry Miculick(sp) shoot. 8 shots,DA, ON TARGET, in ONE SECOND FLAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I shoot my revolvers, I very seldom use single action. A good trigger job and some PROPER practice and its no problem.

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Rick

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Guns cause crime like trailerparks cause tornados.
 
In all fairness to those who have modern DA/SA semis, the DA pull of some are well above 10 pounds. The issue might not be one of being able to transition from DA to SA. Even if the trigger is w/in reach, some just don't have the hand strength to pull an accurate shot for target. It may do in close range quick shot of the BG as far as the saying goes, "adequate defensive accuracy". But at the range at 15-25yds. trying to ring out the potential accuracy of the short little gun can be a challenge for some. If the gun lends itself to quick thumb cocking, WHILE PRACTICING THE RULE OF KEEPING FINGER OFF OF TRIGGER UNTIL POINTING AT TARGET, the action of cocking can become just as quick as clicking off the thumb safety of a 1911.

That said, I agree whole heartedly with Matt's points. If someone is practiceing at the range with their defense side arm, they should practice and become proficient at both D and SA modes. I know of situations, ie. searching the residence for BGs, where only the DA mode should be utilized. Same w/a 1911, as to the thumb safety being on safe. On the other hand, if confronted with a BG threatening the use of deadly force, the SA mode would be possibly more appropriate, IF the person is proficient at such.

Anyone thinking the above opinions through should keep in mind that safety should be paramount for whatever type of action utilized.

Bottom line is that the issue for some is not so much a problem with the DA to SA transittion. It might be one of the combination of heavy trigger pull, (thank the antis and responses to law suits for that), and lack of hand strength....leading to less than optimum accuracy. Possible solutions?....

a) Buy a gun that is more suited and appropriate to the shooter.
b) Have trigger work done to lighten the pull.
c) Strength training and much more practice.
d) Practice both methods of employment of first shot.

Some of the above points have their drawbacks, and may not be good for some. They are just a few options that work for certain individual shooters and weapons. Whatever the solution, I believe proper practice will bring improvement to any decision.

Just my opinion. That and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
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"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
I have been ranting about this one for years now.
People are fooling themselves the way they shoot. That is why I think that, for instance, the Sig is a good paper puncher but not a good carry gun.
The reason being, so many people go to the range and shoot from SA all day long. Excuse me, but if you pull the gun to shoot it, the only shot that really counts is the one from DA...the first shot.
Odds are not that high that you will be shooting in SA in a real shooting, but you KNOW you will be shooting in DA, and that DA to SA transitional second shot in a real shooting.
Might as well get used to it,and practice the DA, and DA to SA double tap, because those are the ones that you will need in real life.
And, finally, that is why I refuse to carry DA/SA autos. For the shot that matters, which is the first shot, and the second follow up, they are vastly inferior to a Glock or a 1911 which have the same trigger pull for every shot.
If more people spent more time doing reailstic shooting drills, pulling the gun from a draw, against a clock (for pressure), doing a double tap (which is FAR more realistic than most people practice) then I believe that far less people would be carrying DA/SA autos. When you start practicing for combat defense in realistic shooting, you quickly find out that the DA/SA style is far inferior.
I could go on, but I am not a big name gun guru so who gives flock what I think?
The truth is, most shooters don't ever think of anything beyond going to the range and punching paper/plinking, so they really don't care.

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"Our cause has been aided by the deaths of all these children in all these schools, and in other settings. And I think we should pay tribute to them." - President Bill Clinton, dancing in the blood of children and pushing his irrelevant gun control laws, April 12, 2000, Scripps Howard News Service Interview
 
If you don't believe that the first shot is the most important, chew on this:

%80 of cops that hit with the first shot in a life or death situation get to go home that night.

%90 of cops that MISS the first shot in such a situation, do NOT get to go home...ever.

The first shot it vitally important in the outcome of the fight. And the second shot, from a double tap is also vital. With a DA/SA auto, your odds of landing those two shots under stress are heavily compromised due to the heavy pull on the first shot and the light pull on the second shot throwing your aim off for both shots. Not saying that it cannot be done with a LOT of practice, just that it can be done a lot better with a single-action pistol or even a true (or pseudo) double-action-only pistol (1911 or Glock).
 
Matt VDW,

In the case of the revolver, SA can be more accurate. Many hunting and silhouette revolvers are SA. With DA it is necessary to keep the sight aligned and the gun level while pulling the trigger hard enough to turn the cylinder and cock the hammer. On an N frame with full loads you are moving a lot of mass.

That said, I shoot strictly revolver, L and N frame .38 spl/.357 magnum and shoot offhand DA almost exclusively. Part of the reason is that I participate in action pistol competition where DA is almost mandatory. Another part of the reason is that when I began shooting 2 years ago I found myself flinching with SA and not DA.

Crying about trigger pull is for wimps.
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I normally shoot my revolver single action at the range. Mainly because the single action break on my S&W is smooooth. Then one day the guy who owns the range (a very well respected trainer and shooter) approached me while I was shooting and started in with the "No no no kid,you got it all wrong..." turns out his philosophy is double action revolver shooting is more accurate and that no one should shoot a DA revolver single action. He also didn't like my S&W wood square butt grips (those stay !). Make a long story short ? I only shoot DA and have to admit my accuracy has improved. With DA I have a controlled trigger pull with more "surprise" when the trigger breaks. Its also more practical training.
 
I agree with you completely.

the other day at the range i saw an LEO shooting his carry gun. he had on his duty belt and holster. the only thing he was doing (while i watched at least) was drawing the gun from the holster (retention device in place and everything) and shooting 2 quick shots at the target. the gun was a sig so he shot one round DA and the second SA. he also was a really good shot!!!

i was quite impressed by this since usually when i see LEOs at the range they are doing just what you were talking about: standing there shooting only SA.

i'll admit that i don't practice with my 2 beretta 92s in DA enough. its very hard for me and i really need to get out there and practice, practice, practice.

well i guess thats why i bought my Glock 19. ;-)
 
TRAINING AND PROPER PRACTICE WORKS!!!!!!!

Every time I have qualified for LE carry with my SIG P220 I have shot DA first/SA follow ups. *NOT ONCE* during those sessions did I cheat and cock the first shot for SA.

Here's a pointer that might help those interested in learning to shoot well using DA/SA pistols. It helped me tremendously when I was shown how by a very experienced shooter.

Make *sure* your gun is empty. Now, make sure that it's empty, again. Safety first.
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Dry fire your gun, squeezing the trigger slow and smooth while making absolutely sure to keep the sights aligned and fixed on a target across the room.

After the shot breaks is where most people go wrong. Don't let the trigger fly forward. Slowly and smoothly release the trigger while still making sure to keep the gun rock steady and aligning the sights with the target. If you practice enough you will learn the position in the forward travel at which the trigger resets and can be squeezed again for the next shot. That's where speed and accuracy of double taps or follow ups comes from. If you religiously practice the DA first/SA second technique this way, you will improve your DA/SA transition.

You won't believe what several sessions of doing dry fire this way will do for you. It's all about trigger control and being smooth. Speed comes after smoothness. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Fast don't matter if it ain't smooth and straight.

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R6...aka...Chris
 
Target shooting is not street survival shooting.

People that practice target shooting techniques at the range are the ones
that are fooling themselves.

Paper targets do not shoot back. The man thats pointing a gun at you is not going to wait while you cock the hammer on your gun, close one eye, take a breath and squeeze.

Just because you own a gun and can punch "nice tight groups" into paper doesn't mean you're going to survive a real life
self defense shooting.
 
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