CZ 75 ?
- Thread starter tsillik
- Start date
Walt Sherrill
New member
TunnelRat said:
There's really no way to answer that question -- except to get a decocker model. I just don't like the different trigger pulls, when I have to start from hammer down -- but you have that with decocker-equipped guns, too.
Having scored MANY, MANY targets in IDPA matches over the years, I can tell you that many very proficient shooters have larger groups with their first two shots at the start of a string from a DA/SA gun than when shooting striker-fired guns.
The DA/SA transition problem is an issue that can be "trained around" but a surprising number of shooters talk about it, but seldom do it. With the best shooters, the DA/SA transition group sizes are smaller than with the less gifted shooters, but it's generally (but not always) there.
I'm looking forward to trying the new SIG P320 one of these days. I've had several SIGs, and the DA/SA transition has always been an issue for me. (I've also had two SA SIGs, but never really found anything that really did it for me.)
I've had a number of striker-fired guns: A luger, which was great!; several Glocks (all with Ghost triggers); a Ruger SR9 (also with a Ghost upgrade) several M&P Pros (with Apex kits installed), and they all have good triggers. With mine the M&P Pros are best, the Ruger pretty good (but a bit heavier than I like), and the Glocks pretty good, too. Still got all of those guns except the Luger.
One of these days CZ will go the striker-fired route, too, just as SIG did, and then it'll really get interesting.
Cyanide971
New member
But Walt, you're forgetting my baby, the (hated) CZ 100, which btw, is still my EDC!
In all seriousness, when/if CZ jumps back in the striker-fire game, it's definitely going to be interesting.
Right, but I've heard your following explanation a number of times. However you seem to have missed my point. My comment was merely that a number of folks like decockers because they are going to use the pistols as DA/SA. If that's the case then there is no downside to getting a decocker model. I think it has less to do with how "safe" or competent the shooter is, merely how he/she intends to use the pistol. If you want cocked and locked then get a model with a safety.
Walt Sherrill
New member
TunnelRat said:
And you're responding as though I disagreed with you. I didn't. My first words were: "There's really no way to answer that question -- except to get a decocker model."
My point, however, which I think YOU MISSED is that there is a real-world DOWNSIDE to using DA/SA guns that can't be started from C&L -- and decockers don't make that downside go away. Most folks with decocker guns don't share my concern. It's obviously not a concern for you.
I think the FIRST SHOT is far more important in a threatening/critical situation than most want to acknowledge. If it's not on target it might as well be a warning shot -- and warning shots are wasted shots. If I ever find mysef in that situation, I want that first shot to be a better first shot than I (and, I think, many people) can handle with guns that start from DA and move to SA. That's the reason for my reluctance to use decocker guns or to use DA/SA guns that can't be carried cocked & locked.
If I'm ever in a potentially lethal situation with a decocker-equipped gun, and there's ANY WAY I CAN DO IT (without doing something stupid -- if I have the presence of mind to know that it's stupid!!), that gun will be thumb-cocked for the first shot. (If the bad guy is so close that I don't have time or space to do that, it probably doesn't matter anyway -- as it may be an almost contact-shot then. That said, I now have TWO guns with decockers (a Sphinx SDP and a SIG P228), and that's more than I've ever had before.
As much as I like CZs and BHPs and some 1911s, I really think hammer-fired guns are going to eventually go away -- as will most steel frames. A surprising number of both hammer-fired and striker-fired guns have been designed such that the slide must move (partially loading the hammer or striker spring) before the trigger can work. Why not just go the striker route? I found some of the Third Generations S&W's a real puzzle in that same way; ditto some of the newest Kel-Tecs (including my PF9).
If I ever start back to shooting competitively again -- I've not done it for several years -- I'll probably go the striker-fired route, where this discussion becomes a non-issue. (I have two great M&P Pros that I'd love to and try, and I did well with a Glock 34 some years back. I have a 35, now -- all of these guns have been tuned by their prior owner, a competitor who does gunsmithing -- so their nice, crisp, reliable, and safe.
If I eventually find a small striker-fired gun I like (it will have to be a bit larger than the Ruger LC9s,) I might even start carrying one, too.
I'm not aware of anyone saying the first shot isn't important. But nor do I accept that a DA first shot is so hard that it's basically a "wasted" shot. If you're not going to train on the platform to be that competent with it, than pick another as you yourself stated you have and frankly that's the smart choice. It takes longer to become proficient with a DA/SA pistol than a number of other handguns. It's an honest downside.
Then why would you carry such a firearm in the first place?
I have nothing against striker fired guns, I own a number of them and carry a number of them. But that's not what this thread is about.
We've had this discussion a few times now. You're under no obligation to explain your chosen carry system to me, nor I you (nor am I saying you're asking me to). All I did was state that if cocked and locked wasn't important to a person, I could see why they might prefer a dedicated decocker. Somehow it warped into this.
Frankly why not just start a new thread instead of bringing it up in other threads? That way it would also exist so you could just refer back to that thread when you thought it relevant instead of rehashing the same argument.
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Well I am a big CZ guy I just love them CZ'S. I have six of them 3 with the decockers & 3 with out. I like the decocker better. I carry the full size 75bd most of the time. Or I will carry the 75 compact with the safety. I like the 75 compact all steel frame better then the P-01 alloy frame. Thats why I carry it over the P-01 I like the weight. I never had a problem decocking any gun with a safety. I never did see why everyone makes a big deal out of it? Now for my next CZ in 40s&w? I don't know if I should go with the full side 75 in 40s&w(it only comes in a safety) of the P-06? I am thinking more the 75 but? Don't know?
Walt Sherrill
New member
TunnelRat said:
You go on to say the following. I added the underlining:
TunnelRat said:
Believe it or not, I wasn't trying to explain my carry system to YOU. You're not the only person participating here.
I was addressing the question that Terry (tsillik) asked in response #4: "What are the pro's and con's on safety vs decocker?" Terry had NOT decided that cocked and locked wasn't important, or that it was... And since the CZ safety ONLY works when the hammer is cocked, it's clearly there for a reason.
In answering Terry's question, I noted that CZ safety-equipped guns allow a SINGLE ACTION start. Doing so bypasses the DA/SA transition. That transition is a point of concern for some, and ignored by others. If we're never involved in a real-world self-defense situation using a firearm, it's really a non-issue. Most of us will NEVER be involved in the use of lethal force.
You took a short-cut above, said "If C&L isn't important..." and chose a different path. That was arguably just as OFF-TRACK and WARPED (your term) as my responses. You're free to go a different route, of course. So am I.
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I see You responded as I was editing my comment. If folks can't find the source of your quote, it was my fault...
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I didn't take a short cut. I stated one fact in my first post, asked a question in my second and then my third post was merely a response to something you said as clarification of why someone might want a decocker only pistol. It evolved into this. For some reason you insist on me re-iterating why I said what I said, when I've explained that multiple times now. Please stop.
I used warped as a verb not a noun and I never used the term off-track, only stated that striker fired pistols weren't what this thread is about. Dude you really take this stuff way too personally. I have no interest in an argument with you. In fact I'm NOT arguing with you. All I did was respond to one thing you said and you keep quoting me. I have nothing more to explain.
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Knightsofnee
New member
By the way, the 75 Omegas have kind of a swoopy elongated beavertail that some say makes them even nicer to shoot. And they're cheaper. I really like mine.
StrutStopper
New member
I'm a fan of the D models. I've got a PCR for carrying and it's a good range gun too. Today, my wife didn't have a Valentines day present for me (not that I expected or wanted anything) but she asked if I wanted a new gun. She didn't have to ask twice, within 45 minutes I was walking out of my LGS with a new BD. I wanted my PCR's full sized brother for range use and possible nightstand duty. Hopefully if the snow doesn't mess up my plans, I'll be hitting the range on Monday afternoon to give it a go.
Am I missing something when it comes to manually decocking or dropping the hammer on a live round? The CZ guys seem to have little concern doing it assuming that one is practiced, points gun in a safe direction, uses good technique, etc. Yet you discuss this matter with 1911 guys and they seem to freak out on the concept of dropping the hammer on a 1911 in the same manner with a round in the chamber. Is there a difference between the CZ and a 1911 in regards to the safety of this maneuver? Perhaps the half cock position is safer on a CZ?
Essentially, in handling and execution, it is same between the two pistols. Mechanically it is not as all 1911's have grip safeties and only some of them have a firing pin lock and even between those that do have a firing pin lock, there are at least two different common methods for the internal operation of that lock and they are completely different from each other.
Frankly, decocking a revolver is essentially the same physical human hand process, although the exposed hammer on a revolver tends to be designed to specifically be operated often and typically with the thumb while an exposed hammer on a semi-auto -- not so much.
As to the short mention of a S&W Third Gen pistol and it's need for some slide movement to reset the trigger... that is only on the DAO models of the series, easily the least produced of all S&W pistols across the board. Might not be accurate to call the DAO Smith & Wesson pistols "rare" but in comparison to their traditional DA/SA brethren, they make up a very, very small percentage.
Frankly, decocking a revolver is essentially the same physical human hand process, although the exposed hammer on a revolver tends to be designed to specifically be operated often and typically with the thumb while an exposed hammer on a semi-auto -- not so much.
As to the short mention of a S&W Third Gen pistol and it's need for some slide movement to reset the trigger... that is only on the DAO models of the series, easily the least produced of all S&W pistols across the board. Might not be accurate to call the DAO Smith & Wesson pistols "rare" but in comparison to their traditional DA/SA brethren, they make up a very, very small percentage.
Walt Sherrill
New member
hAkron said:
True. One of the left-handers I know who shoots CZs bought the CZ-85B, and the other bought a 75B SA model; both of those models have ambi-safties. The 85B (and 85 Combat) also have ambi-slide releases. The new stainless models also come with ambidextrous safeties. I think the mag release on the Stainless models can be reversed, too -- as is the case with most of the newer models.
Independent George
New member
Dave1911 said:
I think it comes down to two things:
1. Depending on the model, the 1911 might not have a firing pin block. If your thumb slips even after you release the trigger, it could still have enough energy to strike & ignite the primer.
2. CZ's have the half-cock notch, which means you can leave your thumb over the firing pin as you first release the trigger, then hammer. The hammer never contacts the firing pin.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Sevens said:
Maybe less rare than you think -- but certainly more rare than the conventional DA/SA models. That's why I wrote "some" S&W pistols.
I think I've got this right, and if so, all of the following S&W models had the same "DAO" trigger mechanism: 1046, 3953, 3954, 4043, 4044, 4046, 4053, 4054, 4056, 4513, 4556, 4583, 5943, 5946, 6944. There were various TSW versions of some of these guns. There may be others!!
I picked up my first "DAO" S&W (a 4043) some years ago from my son who was, at the time, working for a local PD; he bought it from his department when they transitioned to a new weapon; he later decided he preferred the money to the gun. (After installing lighter hammer springs, it became more tolerable but I eventually decided I preferred the money to the gun, too.)
I've never figured out why S&W called that mechanism DAO, as the trigger just doesn't do what Double Action triggers (by definition) are supposed to do. In that sense these DAO guns are just like a Glock and a number of other guns (including my Kel-Tec PF9): the slide MUST move first, and there is no second strike capability.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
Independent George said:
Most of the 1911 guys I know are concerned about using the trigger to drop the hammer on an empty chamber, as a part of the "drop the hammer and show clear" routine at the end of each string in the gun games.
Some feel that doing that (pulling the trigger and just letting the hammer drop on an empty chamber) can eventually damage of the hammer/sear interface. Dropping it in a hand-controlled manner (slowly and gently), the same way people do with LOADED revolvers or other guns (like the CZ) -- is not an issue. (Hammer down on a loaded chamber with some 1911s, depending on whether that gun has a firing pin block, is a different area of concern.)
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