Curious about the evolution of safety rules

what did you mean by de-evolution ?
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I meant the "dumbing down" of the message by shortening/changing the words. I meant the idea people are getting that there are ONLY 3 or 4 rules to be concerned with.

Things like that.

When you reduce a complete thought down to a buzzword or short phrase much can be lost.

"Treat every gun as if it were loaded, until you have personally checked that it is not" is NOT the same thing as "The gun is always loaded!!"

Obviously the oversimplified version is not, and cannot be true all the time. This can, in fact, lead to people scoffing at the rule (because it is not true) and not following the intent of the rule.

There is a place for loose, sloppy, condensed, casual conversation. Safety rules isn't one of those places.
 
When I first heard “The gun is always loaded” rule I was in a firearm safety course with my then teenage son.

During a break, he asked if that was always true - obviously it’s not always true. I told him that the intent to the rule was to treat every gun as though it were loaded until you have verified that it is not loaded.

He asked the reasonable, “Why didn’t they say that?”

That seemed like a very reasonable response on his part.

I really hesitate to teach someone - particularly a teenage son - a statement they know not to be true as a “safety rule.”
 
44 AMP said:
I meant the "dumbing down" of the message by shortening/changing the words. I meant the idea people are getting that there are ONLY 3 or 4 rules to be concerned with.

Things like that.

When you reduce a complete thought down to a buzzword or short phrase much can be lost.

"Treat every gun as if it were loaded, until you have personally checked that it is not" is NOT the same thing as "The gun is always loaded!!"

Obviously the oversimplified version is not, and cannot be true all the time. This can, in fact, lead to people scoffing at the rule (because it is not true) and not following the intent of the rule.

There is a place for loose, sloppy, condensed, casual conversation. Safety rules isn't one of those places.
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Few years ago I went hunting with a couple friends. One was doing something with their shotgun but the barrel was pointed right at me. I stepped offline and politely mentioned to watch his muzzle direction.

His reply... "its ok, its unloaded"

Whatever it takes to get the intent across but it needs to be simple enough even the most simple person can remember.
 
Hidden in plain sight

Right now I'm laughing so hard that typing is even more difficult than usual.

At the top of the forum page, second from the left, is a header entitled "Firearms Safety"

When clicked it goes to a page with this at the top:

---------------------------------
Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety


RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
------------------------------

with a paragraph or so of explanation about each rule.

It just happened to catch my eye. I'm certain that in years past I've clicked it and read it - and probably confused what is there with what I was taught in around 1957 or so.
 
Ive never understood why Coopers version of the 4 rules are not simply widely accepted by all training institutions? It is easy to learn, and covers any situation and if followed I cannot see how there would ever be any injury from an accident if even possible to have one.
 
Rules tend to grow, from don't do anything stupid to don't do anything. Nothing will happen if you don't do anything, right?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
As Mike P. Wagner and 44 AMP noted above, Rule 1 is literally incorrect as stated.

It is not true that "All guns are always loaded" - but there is no brief way to add "until you, personally, have inspected the gun; and at that point you are the only one who knows its condition".

I'm on both sides of the argument; averse to making a blatantly incorrect statement, but also wanting to keep things simple. I depend on the person with whom I'm discussing the rules to call me out on the incorrectness so I can clarify what it means and why I think it is stated that way.

But today I was taken aback when I noticed the Firearms Safety tag in the Forum heading and clicked on it.
 
As far as I know this is the original version of Jeff Coopers 4 rules:

1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

The simple explanations at the end clarify the meaning of the easy to remember simplified rule.
 
How is "Treat every gun as loaded until you have verified it is not" not simple??
:rolleyes:

Multiple generations of Americans have been able to understand and (generally) follow the rules as they have been taught for over a century by the NRA, and many others involved with firearms.

And, for the record, Cooper didn't create the rules. I give him full credit for those things (and there are several) that he did create, but firearms safety rules aren't one of them. What he did do, was take the four most primary rules and promote them extensively in his teaching.
 
44 AMP said:
How is "Treat every gun as loaded until you have verified it is not" not simple??
:rolleyes:
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Ive been flagged too many times by muzzles that the owner said it was ok since they verified it wasn't loaded.

Accidental shootings only happen with "unloaded" guns...

Perhaps how we simplify something is more important than making it easier to understand.
 
For me what is important is that there are rules and EVERY new or repeat gun buyer/borrower/renter gets reminded that there are rules every time a gun in involved in any activity.
 
Nottingingham

I have used Coopers synthesis of the rules for many years, but had not heard the name Nottingham connected with them. Just one more thing learned on this forum.
 
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are. (See Baldwin, Alex).
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.) (See Baldwin, Alex).
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges. (See Baldwin, Alex)
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified. (See Baldwin, Alex)
 
bamaranger said:
I have used Coopers synthesis of the rules for many years, but had not heard the name Nottingham connected with them. Just one more thing learned on this forum.
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Cooper certainly popularized Nottingham's 4 Rules of gun safety. Changed a few words too. I researched it in depth when I was writing my CCW text. I've been challenged on the rules a few times on cases where I was serving as an expert witness, so having the origins followed by adoption of folks like Cooper is a good thing.
 
44 AMP said:
What concerns me more than the evolution of "the rules" is the "de-evolution" of the rules due to people's penchant for shortening and simplifying things, which can lead to loss of critical elements of the message. Particularly if people take the "short form" rules literally.



This is an example.
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I was taught by Randy Cain, a disciple of Gun Site, the word, "treat" is a dangerous precedent. Also, the simplification of the Rules theoretically are more effective in learning safety than having several sentences out for each Rule.

I've never seen an incident happen in dealing with the mentality of all guns are always loaded. But I have with those that "treating" them as loaded in Cooper's context.
 
I've never seen an incident happen in dealing with the mentality of all guns are always loaded. But I have with those that "treating" them as loaded in Cooper's context.
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Could you elaborate and provide an incident where treating the gun as if it were loaded resulted in some issue or accident ??

ONE of my issues with "every gun is always loaded" is literal. If every gun is always loaded, then you literally cannot unload a gun, as it is always loaded, by the rule.

The fact that guns can be unloaded and empty of ammunition is at odds with the literal wording of "every gun is always loaded", and that obvious difference can result in not taking the rule seriously enough to prevent "incidents".

Not by thinking people who understand the underlying concepts, (usually) but by people who are only following the rule by rote because its "the rule".
 
44 AMP said:
Could you elaborate and provide an incident where treating the gun as if it were loaded resulted in some issue or accident ??

ONE of my issues with "every gun is always loaded" is literal. If every gun is always loaded, then you literally cannot unload a gun, as it is always loaded, by the rule.

The fact that guns can be unloaded and empty of ammunition is at odds with the literal wording of "every gun is always loaded", and that obvious difference can result in not taking the rule seriously enough to prevent "incidents".

Not by thinking people who understand the underlying concepts, (usually) but by people who are only following the rule by rote because its "the rule".
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Verbiage is important. If you read the original 4 Rules of gun safety that I posted, the explanation is concise and results in a better understanding. Folks got wrapped up in minutia and added the word "treat" when, in the original context, it is not needed. Reposted for expediency.

The 1st Law of Gun Safety - The Gun Is Always Loaded!
EVERY TIME you pick up or draw a gun, inspect it in a safe manner, control your muzzle, and
always treat it as a loaded gun. You should VISUALLY inspect your gun's chamber every time
you pick it up even if you just sat it down moments before. It may seem redundant but
establishing good habits may save a tragedy during a moment of "brain-fade". Remove all
ammunition and loaded magazines from the immediate area when handling any gun. Also, if
you hand someone your gun, VISUALLY show them the empty chamber and accept no less in
return! An experienced gun handler would never feel insulted.
 
Verbiage is important.
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Agreed.

If you read the original 4 Rules of gun safety that I posted, the explanation is concise and results in a better understanding.
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Explanations should be concise and if they fail to result in a better understanding, then they are inadequate explanations.

I'm sure the "original" firearms safety rules were written with quill pens on parchment by the light of day or candles or oil lamps, and come from some treatise unidentified today, written back when guns were "gonnes"...

The NRA was founded in 1871 with the mission of promoting marksmanship and gun safety. I know the precise verbiage has changed over the years, but I can assure you what was taught 60 years ago was not "all guns are always loaded" it was "Treat every gun as if it were loaded."

Folks got wrapped up in minutia and added the word "treat" when, in the original context, it is not needed.
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Disagree. The word "treat" was not added, it was in the "original" wording that I learned, and I feel that "treat as if" are important words, and should be in the rule as they were for generations before the modern "short form" became popular. SO, I guess our opinions about what is and is not needed are going to differ.

Also, "the gun is always loaded" is just poor grammar. It is a flat, declarative statement, while all the other rules are instructions as to what one should do or not do.

EVERY TIME you pick up or draw a gun, inspect it in a safe manner, control your muzzle, and
always treat it as a loaded gun. You should VISUALLY inspect your gun's chamber every time
you pick it up even if you just sat it down moments before.
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again, back in "ancient times" this was worded a bit more flexibly. Not part of the written rules, directly, but part of what was taught was a bit more practical, while still preserving the basic principles.

What I'm referring to is that instead of the draconian "every time" you drew a gun, or picked it up, it was "every time the gun has been out of your sight, even if for a moment." The point here was, essentially, that after you checked the gun to begin with, as long as it was in your sight (and under your control) where no one could change the condition of the gun without you being aware of it, it wasn't necessary to recheck it.

The gun doesn't load or unload itself in your holster, or in your hands, unless YOU do it. But, if the gun went out of your sight, someone else could have done something, so then it was necessary to check it again.

Words matter

Generally speaking I believe my opinions to be correct and ones that differ from mine are suspect. I'm sure you feel about the same way. :D
 
44 AMP said:
Agreed.
Generally speaking I believe my opinions to be correct and ones that differ from mine are suspect. I'm sure you feel about the same way. :D
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I'm in a business where if I can not prove my opinions are more right than the opposing expert, my client will likely lose their case. It does not happen often, and my wife does not enjoy that fact when it comes to her arguments. And feelings have no quarter within my professional opinions. However, I'll rarely develop an argument for the interwebs to the level that I do in a paid for report.

Suffice it to say that one reason I use Nottingham's 4 rules is that they are the best set, short of developing my own. If I developed my own, then I'd have to still cite him as the originator and be subject to nitpicking of the masses from their couches. There are, as near as I can tell, more than 10 (Four Rules of Gun Safety) in current use by various entities and none surpass Nottingham when it comes to the Safety Hierarchy. Some are worse, some relatively similar.

I'm better using the Four Laws to be able to prove they were not followed, and so due to that, in some cases I will delve into a person's training and use the rules they were trained on to prove their error. If they follow the rules and still have an issue, then the training was improper, and that is usually a different case. :cool:
 
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