You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Crimes Stopped By Brandishing - Does Caliber Matter?
- Thread starter GoodSouthernBoy
- Start date
everything depends on two things. The person holding the gun, and the target.
I once was confronted with mace, i slapped the can out of that person's hand, and took remedial action that put a total end to further aggression.
Confronted with ANY sort of gun, I'm going to consider that course of action, and IF i find the person who is holding the weapon, be it a bb gun or a desert eagle, if I am in the position to stop that confrontation, I bloody will, even if it means a cup of coffee in the face.
One of the key issues, is do you present as a pansy when you stick your jennings into someone's face? Yes. If you show any weakness, you are doomed, and presenting with a toy sized pistol is presenting weakly.
If a person is confronting a criminal, and doesn't appear to pose a serious threat, that criminal is NOT AUTOMATICALLY going to cease hostilities.
I once was confronted with mace, i slapped the can out of that person's hand, and took remedial action that put a total end to further aggression.
Confronted with ANY sort of gun, I'm going to consider that course of action, and IF i find the person who is holding the weapon, be it a bb gun or a desert eagle, if I am in the position to stop that confrontation, I bloody will, even if it means a cup of coffee in the face.
One of the key issues, is do you present as a pansy when you stick your jennings into someone's face? Yes. If you show any weakness, you are doomed, and presenting with a toy sized pistol is presenting weakly.
If a person is confronting a criminal, and doesn't appear to pose a serious threat, that criminal is NOT AUTOMATICALLY going to cease hostilities.
Last edited:
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Interesting discussion but ill formed.
The factors to consider for deterrrence (not the rare zombie drug crazed cyborg biker) are:
1. Size of the gun
2. Size of barrel hole - and is this noticeable under stress - a perceptual question.
3. Does this make a difference to the attacker? What are the characteristics of the attacker
a. The economically motivated criminal. Hole size makes no difference as
any hole is an economic deterrent.
b. The crazy - hole size makes no difference as they are not deterred
because they are crazy.
4. Do we have data? Well, sport fans - I personally asked Gary Kleck the deterrence by caliber question. He says no systematic data exists but the reports they used didn't seem to indicate a trend, nor were there any patterns to anecdotes.
If you look at a property crime, robbery, etc. - you will be hard pressed to find a large percentage of crimes that went to completion once you put a round the the attacker if broken down by caliber. Not talking about killing him or her or 'stopping' in the sense of incapacitation. I'm talking about the crime continuing.
As far as the dreaded stopping power issue - the consensus is that quality handgun rounds of greater than or equal to 38 SPL or 9mm are equal in performance.
The factors to consider for deterrrence (not the rare zombie drug crazed cyborg biker) are:
1. Size of the gun
2. Size of barrel hole - and is this noticeable under stress - a perceptual question.
3. Does this make a difference to the attacker? What are the characteristics of the attacker
a. The economically motivated criminal. Hole size makes no difference as
any hole is an economic deterrent.
b. The crazy - hole size makes no difference as they are not deterred
because they are crazy.
4. Do we have data? Well, sport fans - I personally asked Gary Kleck the deterrence by caliber question. He says no systematic data exists but the reports they used didn't seem to indicate a trend, nor were there any patterns to anecdotes.
If you look at a property crime, robbery, etc. - you will be hard pressed to find a large percentage of crimes that went to completion once you put a round the the attacker if broken down by caliber. Not talking about killing him or her or 'stopping' in the sense of incapacitation. I'm talking about the crime continuing.
As far as the dreaded stopping power issue - the consensus is that quality handgun rounds of greater than or equal to 38 SPL or 9mm are equal in performance.
a. The economically motivated criminal. Hole size makes no difference as
any hole is an economic deterrent.
b. The crazy - hole size makes no difference as they are not deterred
These are two distinctions that are very rarely considered. Is a mugger out for beer money going to run from a small gun? Probably.
Is a rapist, a dope dealer, an angry pimp, a bank robber, or a workplace killer going to be deterred, especially by a mouse gun in the hands of an every day joe? Probably not.
The thing to remember is that you're not going to be drawing a weapon just because a guy has a newspaper and is planning on you on swatting your nose, you shouldn't be drawing a weapon unless you are under serious duress. Chances are, that you are going to encounter a dangerous, and very "brave" (not easily frightened) individual who may just use that as an excuse to waste you.
So, as has been discussed, going small and counting on the best case scenario to work out is foolish. Even charles bronson couldn't intimidate 3 armed and aggressive Crips with a .25. And, as has been mentioned, if deterrence fails and you have to resort to armed action, how well served will you be by this pocket pistol?
Handguns are all inadequate to the chore of absolutely, without fail, stopping an aggressor, especially in the hands of anyone less than a highly trained and practiced individual. Choosing a seriously inferior weapon when a better one is available is the wrong decision to make.
A word about deterrent. The global nuclear arsenal is the greatest weapon that mankid will ever have. Does it act as a deterrent?
What we need to do is ask osama bin laden, Kim Il Jong, or any of the other half cracked individuals on the planet if they are really, truly afraid of our nukes. They will laugh at you. They recognize that the nuke in the hand of a sane person is meaningless. Even in the world's greatest staredown, between the two nuclear superpowers, it was always touch and go as to whether someone would actually push a button and count on fear suppressing retaliation.
In my own mind, I don't really believe in deterrence. I don't think that on average, mankind has much grasp of negative consequences beyond some of the most basic levels.
the one exception is a pump shot gun... every one knows what that sound is and it is very intimidating.
I don't particularly put any stock in that. Thank god, television has taught the hoodlums that they should run if they hear that sound, but personally, I have doubts.
If I heard a shotgun, what would I do?
I'm not going to retreat, because it is nothing but just another weapon. If I was a punk looking for a VCR to steal, sure, but that isn't all there is to the world. If I am fighting for a reason, I don't care, the shotgun is just another factor in a confrontation that is going to run its course.
brandishing is not enough
You can not rely on brandishing any weapon of any size to ensure the security of yourself, family or nation! BGs are notoriously irrational. In this situation only action can protect you and yours! My German Shephard has teeth any dentist would be proud of, but I assure you he has no intention of brandishing them and not applying them to the task at hand. Use the caliber that allows you to hit the target accurately. Research all the FBI ballistics data that is easily available online concerning various calibers.
You can not rely on brandishing any weapon of any size to ensure the security of yourself, family or nation! BGs are notoriously irrational. In this situation only action can protect you and yours! My German Shephard has teeth any dentist would be proud of, but I assure you he has no intention of brandishing them and not applying them to the task at hand. Use the caliber that allows you to hit the target accurately. Research all the FBI ballistics data that is easily available online concerning various calibers.
Deaf Smith
New member
About this 'scaring' thing.
You guys remember what Frank said? You guys remember Frank, right?
You know....
http://www.altfg.com/Stars/o/once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-henry-fonda.jpg
That Frank.
He said, "People scare better when they're dying."
I suspect they do.
Deaf
You guys remember what Frank said? You guys remember Frank, right?
You know....
http://www.altfg.com/Stars/o/once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-henry-fonda.jpg
That Frank.
He said, "People scare better when they're dying."
I suspect they do.
Deaf
Actually there are some things about the OP's original statement That I would also like to know about.
Has anyone on this forum ever been confronted by a BG and scared him away by simply pulling your gun/showing it in the holster?
I'm always ****** off at the news always reporting when some nut shoots someone, but never reporting a crime averted by an armed citizen. I would like to know how ofter crimes are averted.
As for the carry question: I have a 380. Dont want anything big and clunky. If something is going to happen, it's going to be close quarters and I think a 380 will do the job. If it's a wild crack head/PCP head, it's been documented a number of times that even a 45 wont really stop him (unless you take his head off).
I dont think the OP is assuming that just brandishing a gun will ALWAYS stop an attach. I think he was interested in opinions or experiences where it "has" stopped an attack.
Mike Mattera
Has anyone on this forum ever been confronted by a BG and scared him away by simply pulling your gun/showing it in the holster?
I'm always ****** off at the news always reporting when some nut shoots someone, but never reporting a crime averted by an armed citizen. I would like to know how ofter crimes are averted.
As for the carry question: I have a 380. Dont want anything big and clunky. If something is going to happen, it's going to be close quarters and I think a 380 will do the job. If it's a wild crack head/PCP head, it's been documented a number of times that even a 45 wont really stop him (unless you take his head off).
I dont think the OP is assuming that just brandishing a gun will ALWAYS stop an attach. I think he was interested in opinions or experiences where it "has" stopped an attack.
Mike Mattera
The sound of a shotgun: "I don't particularly put any stock in that. Thank god, television has taught the hoodlums that they should run if they hear that sound, but personally, I have doubts. "
Oh it works. We were living in an apartment building (26 units). I was working nights. My wife (girlfriend at the time) said that in the evening someone was shaking door knobs to see if the door was open.
Took out the pump shotgun and showed her how to cock it. A few nights later she heard the door knob shake. She grabbed the gun when to the door and went CHA-CHIN. She said the guy practically fell down the stairs trying to get out of the building. There is no mistaking that sound.
Mike Mattera
Oh it works. We were living in an apartment building (26 units). I was working nights. My wife (girlfriend at the time) said that in the evening someone was shaking door knobs to see if the door was open.
Took out the pump shotgun and showed her how to cock it. A few nights later she heard the door knob shake. She grabbed the gun when to the door and went CHA-CHIN. She said the guy practically fell down the stairs trying to get out of the building. There is no mistaking that sound.
Mike Mattera
Well I'm one of those who stopped a crime, though I don't know that brandishing is the correct term. On my way home from OT on a swing shift [0330] I was headed to a grocery store when I was approached at a red light by a man with a knife. His 'get out ta car sucka', rapidly changed to 'whoa s**t'. The converson factor, a NAA Super Companion drawn while the car door was opened, from a belt buckle holster. The gentlemen in question changed his mind about GTA so completely he left behind his knife. Queries about the efficacy of a mouse gun were also unanswered by the subject. My .357 was in a OWB holster at 8 o'clock [i'm a southpaw] tangled up in the seatbelt. Would a round from a cap and ball .22 to the head stopped him in his tracks from less than arms distance? I honestly don't know, by the time I put the car in park, unbuckled, got out of the car, he was gone. I did learn strong side carry has it's disadvantages for a southpaw driving a car, and a BUG isn't such a bad idea. I still have the knife, in junk drawer somewhere.
I held the weapon subly in front of me and aiming down but so it could be seen, but without actually making an "armed threat".
That action is an "armed threat" and will (if reported by the guys who ran off) put you in jail in Florida whether you have a concealed permit or not. To make it worse, you were probably recorded on video. If it shows the dudes behind you were doing nothing unusual and just waiting to use the machine you could be toasted for brandishing. In Florida, just the mention of a firearm is illegal in a situation like that.
Does anyone remember the artilcle NRA had about 20 yrs ago about this topic? Surely some hard core NRA member here remembers this stat? If memory is right there was a govt survey in California asking if citizens had stopped a crime by brandishing a firearm. Amnesty was given for reporting the illegal act and the number of crimes stopped was high...
bc
Where you live often determines the type of criminals you'll be potentially dealing with. Unfortunately, in large cities, crimes are often drug-induced, the criminals are high on something and are not in a sane frame of mind, whether or not brandishing a weapon (regardless of caliber) will scare them off is a total coin flip. That's why I cannot understand why so many large cities that have a substantial amount of violent crimes are extremely strict regarding legitimate handgun ownership (Chicago and NYC being prime examples). Being highly restrictive of issuing out pistol permits to tax paying, law-abiding citizens only results in a high percentage of firearms circulating around in the black market; the firearms are always in the hands of criminals and not law-abiding citizens.
In more upscale suburban neighborhoods, crimes are most often committed by punk teenagers and moron amateur criminals looking to steal electronics, money, and jewelery. Years ago, back when I lived in a suburb (I now live in a very rural area), a neighbor who lived 4 houses down the road from me dealt with a break-in at about 2AM - he pulled a BB gun and the little 14-17 yr old punks took off running immediately. Just reading through this thread, it seems that MOST of the forum members posting about home break-ins dealt with amateur kids, not life-long expert cat burglars or crazed lunatic rapists on PCP. I'm not saying those type of criminals are not out there, they are simply much more of a rarity.
In rural areas, it's often the same story as the suburbs, though more people pack in rural areas (especially shotguns and rifles) so home break-ins are actually a lot less common (at least where I live), there is also a lot less riff raff in rural parts. Let's face it though, nearly anyone in a sane frame of mind with some inclination to want to live will be quickly deterred by any sort of firearm. I know some have different opinions on this because they may have dealt with a severe crime in the past that changed their opinion on the matter, only a very small percentage of crimes result in some sort of deadly armed confrontation.
In more upscale suburban neighborhoods, crimes are most often committed by punk teenagers and moron amateur criminals looking to steal electronics, money, and jewelery. Years ago, back when I lived in a suburb (I now live in a very rural area), a neighbor who lived 4 houses down the road from me dealt with a break-in at about 2AM - he pulled a BB gun and the little 14-17 yr old punks took off running immediately. Just reading through this thread, it seems that MOST of the forum members posting about home break-ins dealt with amateur kids, not life-long expert cat burglars or crazed lunatic rapists on PCP. I'm not saying those type of criminals are not out there, they are simply much more of a rarity.
In rural areas, it's often the same story as the suburbs, though more people pack in rural areas (especially shotguns and rifles) so home break-ins are actually a lot less common (at least where I live), there is also a lot less riff raff in rural parts. Let's face it though, nearly anyone in a sane frame of mind with some inclination to want to live will be quickly deterred by any sort of firearm. I know some have different opinions on this because they may have dealt with a severe crime in the past that changed their opinion on the matter, only a very small percentage of crimes result in some sort of deadly armed confrontation.
Last edited:
This shooting, as a result of an accidental break-in, happened just a few miles from where I live. Just wanted to know your opinions on this one...
http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s1488453.shtml?cat=300
Basically, a 31-yr old teacher from out-of-town was at a party (some sort of baby shower), ended up getting blasted drunk, went outside, then entered the wrong home (next door to the party) during the middle of the night. The homeowner heard the guy enter, called the cops, took out his shotgun, supposedly yelled at the guy, then shot him dead. Not sure how I would have reacted if I was the homeowner, I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger as quickly but then again I don't know how this guy was behaving before he was shot. NY (surprisingly) is a castle doctrine State, so homeowners can legally use deadly force if they feel their lives are in jeopardy during a break-in. Would you have shot the guy, or let him live?
http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s1488453.shtml?cat=300
Basically, a 31-yr old teacher from out-of-town was at a party (some sort of baby shower), ended up getting blasted drunk, went outside, then entered the wrong home (next door to the party) during the middle of the night. The homeowner heard the guy enter, called the cops, took out his shotgun, supposedly yelled at the guy, then shot him dead. Not sure how I would have reacted if I was the homeowner, I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger as quickly but then again I don't know how this guy was behaving before he was shot. NY (surprisingly) is a castle doctrine State, so homeowners can legally use deadly force if they feel their lives are in jeopardy during a break-in. Would you have shot the guy, or let him live?
ChrisWNY said:Would you have shot the guy, or let him live?
Albany teacher fatally shot in Amherst
The above article goes into a bit more detail.
It is sad, I seem to recall a few similar incidences in the last few years. I can't say for certain exactly what I would have done.
I do know that, in my world view, it is very hard to blame the home owners.
Sad. Just last week I saw a few off duty army dudes trying to open my neighbor's door. They couldn't open it and as I walked by and asked if everything was ok, they told me they were unable to get into their buddy's home. I asked them a few questions and realized they were at the wrong house. Basically same address wrong street. Imagine if you are asleep and wake to a group of guys trying to force your door open, you go blasting off? I think you are best advised to clearly identify the threat and THINK before pulling that trigger because you can't recall a bullet.
Yeah, I agree, I think I would've used a bit more discretion before firing. The guy (young teacher from Albany) in the home was drunk and stumbling around, I think that should've been fairly easy to recognize, and I'm pretty sure I would know if someone was drunk and aimlessly stumbling around or intended on burglarizing my home/putting my family in jeopardy. The law was on the homeowner's side in this case, as it should when an intruder enters your home. Both clearly made mistakes - the homeowner failed to lock his door, and the drunk guy should have never been in that home in the first place. Tragic situation, the homeowner could still face a drawn-out civil suit and will have to live with knowing he shot a guy who was too impaired to realize what he was doing.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
She grabbed the gun when to the door and went CHA-CHIN. She said the guy practically fell down the stairs trying to get out of the building. There is no mistaking that sound.
I assume this means - grabbed to the gun, went to the door and then racked.
I suggest, that if this means a deliberate plan to go to a door, open it and then rack - it was ill advised. Or be near a door - so the sound could be heard?
The guy did run away. On the other hand, a dedicated opponent might have shot you at door opening or watching you manipulate the gun. Or, if you needed the gun immediately on opening the door - you are out of luck.
If the sound effect works, all well and good. However, deliberately putting yourself in danger for a sound effect is not a plan.
When the gun comes to your hands, you should make it ready to fire.
The best sound effect is a siren. But you can from a good position, yell:
I've got a gun. The Police are on the way. GET OUT!
"a deliberate plan to go to a door, open it and then rack - it was ill advised."
Did I say "Opened the Door". No! Why would you open the door when you know there is an intruder on the other side? How stupid is that! You don't have to open the door, or even stand in front of the door to be heard.
"The best sound effect is a siren."
You wanted her to make a siren sound? Or call the police and wait 40 minutes for them to get there? This guy was only going to be there for 5-10 seconds, UNLESS he found an open door. Then it was robbery time. You couldn't even get the police on the phone in the time it took this guy to move down the hallway shaking door knobs.
BTW: The door knob was never shaken again. Non violent, non confrontational and executed from a safe distance. Problem solved.
The point is... the unmistakable sound of racking a shotgun eliminated a potential threat/crime.
===================
I wish the OP hadn't used the word "Brandishing" in the title. It creates the image of someone waving a gun in the air, yelling "Stay Away, I'm Packin' ". I dont think that was his point at all. I also don't think any one on this forum bought their gun with the hopes of shooting a BG. I'm pretty sure they bought them with the idea of detering a BG. I think the idea is that in the rare and unavoidable situation where you or your loved ones are being threatened, you can unholster your side arm and in a ready, yet downward pointed position, let the threat know your not looking for any problems.
In that situation... does size matter? That's the OP's question.
Mike Mattera
Did I say "Opened the Door". No! Why would you open the door when you know there is an intruder on the other side? How stupid is that! You don't have to open the door, or even stand in front of the door to be heard.
"The best sound effect is a siren."
You wanted her to make a siren sound? Or call the police and wait 40 minutes for them to get there? This guy was only going to be there for 5-10 seconds, UNLESS he found an open door. Then it was robbery time. You couldn't even get the police on the phone in the time it took this guy to move down the hallway shaking door knobs.
BTW: The door knob was never shaken again. Non violent, non confrontational and executed from a safe distance. Problem solved.
The point is... the unmistakable sound of racking a shotgun eliminated a potential threat/crime.
===================
I wish the OP hadn't used the word "Brandishing" in the title. It creates the image of someone waving a gun in the air, yelling "Stay Away, I'm Packin' ". I dont think that was his point at all. I also don't think any one on this forum bought their gun with the hopes of shooting a BG. I'm pretty sure they bought them with the idea of detering a BG. I think the idea is that in the rare and unavoidable situation where you or your loved ones are being threatened, you can unholster your side arm and in a ready, yet downward pointed position, let the threat know your not looking for any problems.
In that situation... does size matter? That's the OP's question.
Mike Mattera
Last edited:
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Why would you approach the door to make a sound effect?
BTW, calling the police first is best. Also, we have a loud alarm that sounds like the wrath of God that we can trigger from inside the house.
I know no one likes to be criticized if they think they did something that worked. But one doesn't post if you don't want critiques.
You don't go to the door and rack. You rack when the gun comes to your hand. You stay away from the door but adopt a position to cover it. You give appropriate warnings from a safe position.
Given most economic criminals would be deterred by any clear warning, the magic shotgun rack used in a tactically risky manner is not without critique.
On another forum, the old debate of charging into battle rather than hunkering down was raised. One of the usual reasons for not hunkering is that the police are X time away , so you have to take the risk. The moderator replied - why can't you wait an half hour - you gotta poop?
It's a good question, why not wait in a safe place?
BTW, calling the police first is best. Also, we have a loud alarm that sounds like the wrath of God that we can trigger from inside the house.
I know no one likes to be criticized if they think they did something that worked. But one doesn't post if you don't want critiques.
You don't go to the door and rack. You rack when the gun comes to your hand. You stay away from the door but adopt a position to cover it. You give appropriate warnings from a safe position.
Given most economic criminals would be deterred by any clear warning, the magic shotgun rack used in a tactically risky manner is not without critique.
On another forum, the old debate of charging into battle rather than hunkering down was raised. One of the usual reasons for not hunkering is that the police are X time away , so you have to take the risk. The moderator replied - why can't you wait an half hour - you gotta poop?
It's a good question, why not wait in a safe place?
You're really not helping Double Naught Spy
What is the point of such a ridiculous statement? The OP is asking legitimate questions about smaller guns.My logic is: if a majority of crimes are averted by simply drawing a gun, why not opt for a smaller caliber?
Well, you could just not bother loading your gun if most crimes are going to be averted by simply drawing a gun. Think of all the weight savings.
Yes it does. The OP isn't going to Baghdad. A gun that is too large and too heavy to be comfortably carried will be left at home. a 32 in your pocket does a lot more good than a 45 that gets left at home. most people aren't carrying an M4 all day. They have other things that they need to do and they can't be constantly worrying about their gun being uncomfortable or printing. If they do then the gun will be left at home.I also don't want to tote a .45 around with me all day long - especially in the SC heat and humidity.
Okay, so convencience and comfort supercede self defense for you and your family.
The OP would probably rather land 3-4 shots of 12 gauge OO buckshot, but that aint gonna happen. If you don't have the gun with you then it doesn't matter how good you are with it. I'd rather hit the BG 3 times with a .32 than point my finger at him because I left my .45 at home because it's too heavy and I can't conceal it well.(Nobody I know wants to take 3 or 4 hits from any type ammo, even .22 short )
What makes you think you are going to be able to hit anyone with 3-4 hits?
However, since you mentioned 3-4 hits, if you did have to shoot in self defense, would you rather land 4 shots of .45 on the bad guy or 4 shots of .22 short? Which do you think would be more likely to stop the bad guy?
How much good does that .45 do you if you can't hit anything with it because you can't afford to shoot it much? Not everyone is going to Baghdad and not everyone can spend 25% of their income on guns. The OP is NOT getting dressed to go to the afternoon gunfight. if he was he wouldn't be asking about handgun choice.I'm more interested in if the convenience (purchase price, ammo cost, ease of carry) of a smaller caliber handgun outweighs it's lack of stopping power?
I would be more concerned with the opposite end of the problem...if carrying a more convenient smaller caliber handgun that is more lacking in stopping power outweighs the value of my life and the lives of my loved ones.