Credit card gun registration

[44 AMP]

the only difference between a conspiracy and truth right now is a little bit of time.

To meet the usual definition of conspiracy, they have to plan, jointly, in secret, to commit an illegal or harmful act.

Right now, I don't see that having been done....yet

First, its hardly secret, its all over the internet...

Second, tis not illegal, and lastly, creating a category of data tracking is not, in and of itself, harmful.

Now, what they might do with that data might be....but the data classification itself, isn't.

and, as far as them using the credit card thing to put the little gun shops out of business, and then pressuring the big stores?

Where have you been the last few decades?? The big stores (and here, I'm going to specifically use WalMart) have been trying to do that for years. Fairly successfully, in some places, and the buying public has been helping them out...

The classic example is someone going to the mom&pop gunshop, to check ou t that Remchester they're interested in, and then going to buy it at WalMart, because its $20 cheaper there....

Do that enough, Mom&Pop shop goes away, but its ok, you can still get your stuff (and cheaper!) at WalMart, right???

UNTIL WalMart decides to stop selling it....
like they did here a while back with ammo in certain calibers.....

You know, the ones used in mass shootings..

 

[ATN082268]

Second, tis not illegal, and lastly, creating a category of data tracking is not, in and of itself, harmful.

Now, what they might do with that data might be....but the data classification itself, isn't. :

Technically correct but is there a non harmful purpose for the collection of gun and gun related buying via credit card data?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Technically correct but is there a non harmful purpose for the collection of gun and gun related buying via credit card data?

Well, they could use it to select what unwanted ads they want to torture us with ... but they have already stated that that's not their purpose.

 

[ATN082268]

Well, they could use it to select what unwanted ads they want to torture us with ... but they have already stated that that's not their purpose.

The ad reason would only make sense if virtually everything else was being tagged too. If you're only tagging a very select number of things, then you're giving up on a lot of potential revenue for no good reason.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The ad reason would only make sense if virtually everything else was being tagged too. If you're only tagging a very select number of things, then you're giving up on a lot of potential revenue for no good reason.

Perhaps you don't understand the nature of this new initiative. The credit card companies are not going to be tagging "things." They are creating a merchant classification code (MCC) for gun stores. It won't identify what a card holder buys when he/she uses the card at a gun store, but it will show that he/she made a purchase at Bob's Gun Emporium. In theory, this would allow advertisers to target (pardon the use of an unfortunate term) that buyer with ads pertaining to firearms and ammunition.

If that was their purpose, but they have already said that's not their purpose.

 

[44 AMP]

Technically correct but is there a non harmful purpose for the collection of gun and gun related buying via credit card data?

I'm sure there is, but don't ask me to know what that might be...

And whatever that harmless purpose might be (internal marketing studies??) that doesn't mean it is the only use the data might be put to...

As (more or less ) rational thinkers, and particularly as gun owners, we must avoid the ethics and logic trap of blaming evil on inanimate objects.

Before we start shouting about how they shouldn't do this, or worse, start demanding some rule or law prohibiting them from doing this, "because they might do harm with it"... remember that is exactly the same argument used by anti gun people about firearms. The idea of "red flag" laws being bad things goes beyond just potential violence with firearms.

Sorry to have to seem to defend what solidly seems like a precursor to some move to harm the consumer firearms industry (via credit use) but some things need to be pointed out.

It's their data. Not ours, not public record, or governmental information. They can build any style sand castle in their sandbox that they want, and we don't have a say in the mater.

Now, if they start flinging that sand out of their own sandbox and into ours, then we might have a say in the matter, but until/unless they do, we don't.

The moral high ground is "innocent until proven guilty". And as we expect it to be applied to us, we should also apply it to others, even when it seems obvious that they are going to do something bad, UNTIL they do, they get the benefit of the doubt.

I don't give a hairy rodent's posterior about the way private companies arrange, tabulate and manage their private data. What we need to watch for and guard against is that private data being used to create public policy and laws.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't give a hairy rodent's posterior about the way private companies arrange, tabulate and manage their private data. What we need to watch for and guard against is that private data being used to create public policy and laws.

One minor(?) point: It is arguable that it's "their" data. To whatever extent "their" data can be connected directly to me, I would argue that it's MY data -- or, at best, "our" data.

 

[ATN082268]

Perhaps you don't understand the nature of this new initiative. The credit card companies are not going to be tagging "things." They are creating a merchant classification code (MCC) for gun stores. It won't identify what a card holder buys when he/she uses the card at a gun store, but it will show that he/she made a purchase at Bob's Gun Emporium. In theory, this would allow advertisers to target (pardon the use of an unfortunate term) that buyer with ads pertaining to firearms and ammunition.

If that was their purpose, but they have already said that's not their purpose.

You are correct, I don't know all the details of the credit card tracking initiative and I could have phrased my comments better. Ok, so credit card companies are not tagging a specific thing, just giving a general code for those who purchase stuff at gun stores. Are the credit card companies giving codes for all the other type stores? If not, then the ad argument still doesn't make any sense as you are giving up a lot of potential revenue for areas like beauty, pharmaceutical, etc for no apparent reason.

 

[Rob228]

I'm not a fan of anything being used as a database to collect information on US citizens but I do have to say something.

I've worked in intelligence for the last six years, and in that time I've learned that the US government is not nearly the efficient, effective intelligence collection and analysis apparatus that some people would have you believe.

 

[USAF Ret]

I'm not a fan of anything being used as a database to collect information on US citizens but I do have to say something.

I've worked in intelligence for the last six years, and in that time I've learned that the US government is not nearly the efficient, effective intelligence collection and analysis apparatus that some people would have you believe.

Military Grade - Lowest cost bidder that meets basic requirements.

34 years in DoD.

 

[44 AMP]

One minor(?) point: It is arguable that it's "their" data. To whatever extent "their" data can be connected directly to me, I would argue that it's MY data -- or, at best, "our" data.

well, yes, Mr Hand, you could make the argument that it is "our data", but, is it, really?

Yes, the data can be connected directly to you, because you voluntarily entered into a contract allowing that. Remember it's their card, not yours, even though it has your name on it. You are using their card, using their service, and I don't see where you or I have a valid claim to ownership of the data, just because our names are part of that data.

Again, I must point out that what is being said so far is not about public data, but the private property of the credit card companies. Rules for govt data and freedom of information act rules simply do not apply.

If our legal experts find me in error about this, I bow to their expertise but I feel pretty sure it works as I've described it.

Now, IF (when) they share that data with ANY govt agency, THEN it would enter into the realm of public information (but only what information they shared with the Govt), accessible to us, via existing legal means.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You are correct, I don't know all the details of the credit card tracking initiative and I could have phrased my comments better. Ok, so credit card companies are not tagging a specific thing, just giving a general code for those who purchase stuff at gun stores. Are the credit card companies giving codes for all the other type stores?

They already have codes for every store that does business with them. Those are the MCC codes. This is creating a new and unique MCC for "gun stores."

https://www.merchantmaverick.com/merchant-category-code-mcc/

https://www.doctorofcredit.com/detailed-list-of-merchant-category-codes-mcc-for-visa-mastercard/

https://purepaypayments.com/mcc-code-list-updated/

 

[TomNJVA]

Who decides what Merchant Category Code a store uses? Must the specific items listed under the code reflect the stores primary source of income? If so, do the credit card companies or banks police and enforce the code selection?

If the store selects their own MCC they can simply pick a broader category that encompasses non-firearm related products, such as Sporting Goods, in order to blur the nature of their sales data. But if the credit card companies or banks select the code or police the store’s selection, then the stores who receive their primary income from firearm related products are vulnerable to credit denial. These are likely the smaller LGS and internet businesses, especially those with “gun” or “ammo” or other firearm related words in their name.

 

[MarkCO]

Yes, and this plan is less about tracking guns to the end-user as it is harassing gun shops. Credit card processing is difficult and expensive for smaller businesses, and my guess is the fees will skyrocket for that particular merchant code.

Bingo. August 12, my CC processor started to take my funds, from store purchases, and put them into an custodial account. This was done without notice and without my authorization. They actually went into my account and changed the routing and account numbers, and locked me out. Then, on September 12, they notified me that they had "stolen" my money and closed my account because I was "high risk". They would review at some later point, and I might get my money back at 180 days. But, no CC processing, and I am now locked out from even changing my CC processor until they clear their holds on my funds. This is because I sell some parts that "could" be part of a "Ghost Gun". I do NOT sell anything that requires FFL nor any frames of any kind, just parts and accessories. They have "bots" that crawl the websites of their customers and there are several smaller folks like me that have been pounded. For me to switch to a CC processor for "FFLs", which is what they want me to do, is a $500 up front charge and almost double in fees.

Yes, talked to the AG, told me to pound sand. Talked to my CU, and they are helping me in several ways. I learned a LOT last week, and this is all based on the current admin loosening certain regs to encourage CC companies, and the processors, to squeeze the 2A retailers.

Oh, and yes, "Sporting Goods" was my retailer code. Does not matter, the bots will find any words related to firearms, flag the store and then a person will decide, usually against the merchant.

Maybe this is, rather, a backdoor to shut down online businesses in the firearms industry. So, if we stop using credit cards and ordering online, those businesses will have to shut down.

Exactly what they want. I am working on some pivots to change my business model in the firearms industry as a result.

 

[44 AMP]

This is because I sell some parts that "could" be part of a "Ghost Gun".

There you have it. This is their unlimited access point to cover any and every gun part, and much more besides. And, it is total bull.

In current popular usage, "Ghost gun" means ANY gun made by ANYONE who is not a Federally licensed manufacturer and the gun is not registered with the Federal government when made, or when sold.

Since this could be ANY gun (AR's are just the commonly used example), then, by extension, ANY gun part COULD BE used in making a "Ghost Gun".

TO me, this seems to be "constructive possession" taken to the nth degree. Bit they can get away with it, because they are NOT the government, and therefore not required to follow the same rules the government is, providing they stay within the framework of existing law.

And, apparently your situation is, which is why your AG isn't interested. It absolutely IS discrimination, but since its based on your business practices (what you sell, in this case) and is not something covered under law, no legal violation exists, and they can pretty much do as they damn well please.

Some time back, WalMart decided they would no longer carry the ammo "used in mass shootings". They didn't stop selling what they had in stock, mind you, they just stopped ordering more, and are still selling the "evil" stuff they still have, until its all gone.

They call it "Virtue signalling" APPEARING to do something because they "care" about a problem, (provided there is no significant effect on their bottom line).

And the relatively few gun shops currently targeted are not a significant chunk of the big credit card companies' profits.

Look to see more of this kind of thing happen, as time goes on.

 

[kenny53]

I never use my card unless I have to money to pay it off as soon as I get home. I only use the card because I get money back. If the card company gets stupid, I'll go to cash.