Country Road Scenario

SW586

Lacking a CCW does not preclude you from carrying a weapon in your car in most cases. Here in NC, officers have no issue at all with a weapon on your dash. It is illegal to conceal a weapon in a car, but having one locked and loaded where LEO can see it is not frowned upon at all.
 
Washington State constitution Article 1 section 24

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this SECTION shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
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Two guys on one cop? Not only am I in fear of my life, but I fear for the life of another. The BG with his hand on the gun gets shot, the one with the club may chose to cease and desist. If not, that is his decision, I have more bullets.

Stupid should hurt, phenomonally stupid should be fatal.
 
Any LEO will tell you that the third best weapon is your voice.

First, I will assess the situation based on as much visual information as I am able to gather in a few seconds, and then make a rational (quasi-rational) decision.

Second, I will produce my weapon and adopt a strategic position and stance.

Third, I will yell "FREEZE!" at the top of my lungs, and then instruct the BGs---as loudly and aggressively as I can---to drop their weapon(s) and move away from the Deputy.

If you have ever watched the program "COPS" on T.V. (real footage, BTW) you'll know that two out of three times the BGs will vacillate for a moment, and then either attack YOU, or attempt to flee the scene. What you should do in one or the other case is obvious, and I will not go into that (assuming that you fully understand your rights and the laws of your country and state). What matters here is that you intervened and prevented the death of an officer of the law. You made a difference.

CMichael: your posts would have earned you multiple infractions at The Red Zone http://www.recguns.com/TRZ.html
What, I ask myself, would you do if the Deputy had been your father/brother/son/friend? He most assuredly is someone's. And what if the BGs come at you with the Deputy's gun? Will you have time to peel out? to run and hide? How will you take your chances, citizen? Tsk, tsk.
 
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After thinking about my other post on this thread, it occurred to me that the officer being attacked would probably not be focused on me enough to notice whether I had pulled my gun from under my car seat, from my car trunk, from the top of the dash, or out of my a$$. After I had placed myself with an unobstructed view of the happenings and a clear line of fire, I would definitely yell "FREEZE" at the top of my lungs hoping the officer was coherent enough to hear me and relate to the other responding officers that I had tried to diffuse the situation without using deadly force. If the attackers refused my demand and made any more threatening moves toward myself or the officer, I would open fire. Not wanting to be a hero, just wanting to save the officer's life without having my own life turned upside down.
 
Rick I realize that I am in the minority and appearing chicken*&&.

It's easy to say well I just take out my gun and kill both the bad guys and that will be that.

I think the situation itself is very dangerous.

There is an officer right next to the bad people. In a shootout there is a risk that I will hit the officer or one of the badguys will kill the officer.

If both the bad guys have guns there is a risk that they will shoot back. Since they are two with guns and I am one they have an advantage.

I would like to avoid a shoot out.

If I can scare them off that would be the ideal and get to a place where I can use my cell phone that would great too.

This is a very dangerous situation especially with the proximity of the officer to the bad guys.

It is night time, how do I see them good enough to get a clean shot? If I park my car and put my headlights on, I don't think they are just going to wait there ready to be shot. They will take cover.

I would imagine that bad guys with guns have much more training using them in actual fight situations than I do. I doubt most people here have used a handgun aggresively against anyone. The bad guys do this for a living.

I think this is a much more complicate situation than most people realize.
 
CMichael,

Granted. The situation is dangerous---no, it is extremely dangerous! But then that's why you carry a gun, isn't it?

"It's easy to say well I just take out my gun and kill both the bad guys and that will be that."
That is never easy to say. And your aim should not be to kill, but to stop. Death may be an unfortunate possible side-effect.

"In a shootout there is a risk that I will hit the officer or one of the badguys will kill the officer."
Of course. There is always a risk involved, and the possibility that something may go terribly wrong will always creep in on us. Still, I would expect you to try and prevent it while doing what is morally and legally right.

"I would like to avoid a shoot out."
Don't we all. But there is a difference: Are you just going to let the officer die a certain death when you might be able to stop it? Are you going to let the BGs have their way? Are you going to let them flee the scene so that they can go and "make" other victims?

"If I can scare them off that would be the ideal and get to a place where I can use my cell phone that would great too."
Nrrrhhh!---you can't use your cell phone, remember? Even if you traveled far enough for your phone to work, how is that going to help the Deputy? And yes, I agree; it would be ideal if the BGs wet themselves and ran off and were soon thereafter apprehended. But how often is reality ideal?

"It is night time, how do I see them good enough to get a clean shot? If I park my car and put my headlights on, I don't think they are just going to wait there ready to be shot. They will take cover."
They being blinded by your headlights, and assuming you don't stand in front of your own vehicle, how do you expect them to get a clean shot at you?

"I would imagine that bad guys with guns have much more training using them in actual fight situations than I do. I doubt most people here have used a handgun aggresively against anyone. The bad guys do this for a living."
I've always said it: If you don't train for that day, then what are you doing carrying a gun? Failing to plan is planning to fail.

"I think this is a much more complicate situation than most people realize."
If you don't expect the unexpected, it will find you unprepared.
 
Moi >>"It's easy to say well I just take out my gun and kill both the bad guys and that will be that."

Rick >>That is never easy to say. And your aim should not be to kill, but to stop. Death may be an unfortunate possible side-effect. <<

If I am shooting someeone my aim is to kill that person. I am not going to shoot for the hand that is holding the gun. Shooting without the aim of killing will get me killed.


Moi>> "In a shootout there is a risk that I will hit the officer or one of the badguys will kill the officer."

Rick>> Of course. There is always a risk involved, and the possibility that something may go terribly wrong will always creep in on us. Still, I would expect you to try and prevent it while doing what is morally and legally right. <<

I think there is a big risk of having a shootout with an officer just about caught in the crossfire.

>>Don't we all. But there is a difference: Are you just going to let the officer die a certain death when you might be able to stop it? <<

Actually according the scenerio the officer was being beaten. That doesn't insure a certain death unless I hit him in the head with a bullet by mistake.

Rick >>Are you going to let the BGs have their way? Are you going to let them flee the scene so that they can go and "make" other victims? <<

The big question is what the greater risk; me having a shootout or me getting to a spot where I can call the police.

Moi >>"If I can scare them off that would be the ideal and get to a place where I can use my cell phone that would great too." <<

Rick >>Nrrrhhh!---you can't use your cell phone, remember? Even if you traveled far enough for your phone to work, how is that going to help the Deputy? And yes, I agree; it would be ideal if the BGs wet themselves and ran off and were soon thereafter apprehended. But how often is reality ideal? <<

The cell phone was in a dead zone. I can get out of the dead zone. I think the ideal to is to be able to scare them off so they need to focus on taking cover rather than concentrating on the deputy.

The question is how to do this. If I just stop and have a shootout, I can't call the police. I think the most important thing to do is to call the police ASAP.

Me "It is night time, how do I see them good enough to get a clean shot? If I park my car and put my headlights on, I don't think they are just going to wait there ready to be shot. They will take cover."

Rick?They being blinded by your headlights, and assuming you don't stand in front of your own vehicle, how do you expect them to get a clean shot at you? <<

They can move out of the headlights. They are not stuck there. It is dark.

If they move and I keep the headlights on they know exactly where I am and I can't see them. That is not a great advantage.

I would imagine that the first thing they would do is take cover. Unless they are total idiots I don't think they are going to wait there in the open where they are vulnerable.

Moi >>"I would imagine that bad guys with guns have much more training using them in actual fight situations than I do. I doubt most people here have used a handgun aggresively against anyone. The bad guys do this for a living."
Rick >>I've always said it: If you don't train for that day, then what are you doing carrying a gun? Failing to plan is planning to fail. <<

I have had martial arts training. One thing my instructor said was to understand the different mindsets. Bad guys prepare their briefcase and go out and do violent acts. That is their way of life.

Non bad guys can train for it 24 hours a day. However, there is a big difference between training for it and doing it for a living.

I still don't like the idea of having a shootout with two guys with guns. I think it creates an even more dangerous situation.

I still think the priority is summoning help. Perhaps getting out of the dead zone, calling the police, then returning to keep them occupied until the police come.

It's easy to talk big here on a message board (that isn't a blast to anyone here). It's different when faced with an actual situation where it's not so black and white.

Michael
 
CMichael,
You are obviously stating the actions you would be comfortable taking in this hypothetical situation. We all would do what we were most comfortable with. Nobody can chastise you for that. That being said, I hope you realize I mean no disrespect toward you when I say that if I were the cop in this predicament, I sincerely feel I would be no better off if you happened on the scene than if nobody showed up at all.
 
SW,

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I think the deputy is better off with a dozen police cars at the scene because I called than me having a shootout with the officer in the middle of it.

Michael
 
I hit "submit reply" too fast.

I also don't think the cop's family will be too happy with having a high risk of getting hit by bullet because I am firing in poor light conditions in his direction.

I think the question you need to ask yourself is if you are putting the cop's life in more jeopardy by doing what you are doing and not calling for help as soon as possible.

This is assuming that the bad guys don't just stand there frozen in your headlights while you easily hit them with bullets.

Michael
 
CMichael,
But there is the great possibility that the dozen police cars at the scene would be viewing the body of a fellow officer who was killed while you were driving to an area where the signal was strong enough for you to make the call. Add in the response time of the officers and a significant amount of time has elapsed that could have been better spent doing what you could to save the officer's life. I would probably be on the verge of wetting myself, but I could not in good conscience leave the officer to this very possible fate. I would take direct and aggressive action.
 
SW that is why I suggested getting the call made then coming back by distracting them by firing at them.

I think doing it alone under these circumstances is very dangerous for the officer and yourself.

What happens when you run out of bullets and your car won't work because it got hit? Now there are two victims.

I still say it's imperative to get the cavalry on their way.

Michael
 
Here is the original scenario:
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"It's about 11PM, and you are driving down an unlit, curving country road. You're at least 10 miles from anything that resembles civilization, and in a cell phone "dead zone" -- no signal. You are by yourself and carrying your CCW weapon.

As you round a curve, you see flashing red and blue lights ahead. You naturally slow down in case there's an accident, but as you come closer you see a Sheriff's car pulled up behind a black Monte Carlo. In between the two cars, a Deputy is lying on the ground, shielding his head as one large, scruffy looking dude is beating him with his own nightstick and the other is tugging at the Deputy's sidearm, trying to free it from its retention holster.

What do you do?"
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If you'll note, when you arrive on the scene neither BG has a gun. One guy is beating the officer with his own nightstick, the other has not yet succeeded in relieving the officer of his gun. NEITHER BAD GUY HAS POSESSION OF A GUN AT THIS TIME. The opportune time for you to act with force is NOW! If you go hotfooting it to an area with clear reception to make a call, the odds of the officer's survival has just slid off the chart.
 
Sw your conclusion is not entirely correct. We don't know if they already have guns. It doesn't say.

One bad guy has his hand on the officer's handgun which is several steps ahead of where you are driving your car.

To shoot accurately you need to stop the car and aim.

There are several very dangerous conditions here.

It is night time. It is poorly lit. There is an officer right where one of the bad guys is. If you fire at the bad guys you take a good chance of hitting the officer. At least one person now has a gun. You have no backup. You have no actual training in this.

Scenerio says you are 10 miles from civilization and you are in a dead zone. It doesn't mean that if you go a little further you won't be in the dead zone.

Perhaps one thing to do is to fire at them, force them to take cover, drive off, call the police, and return.

It is critical to call the police as soon as possible.

I think this is a lot more of a dangerous situation than a lot of posters are giving it credit for.

Michael
 
CMichael,
It seems we have reached an insurmountable impasse on this subject.
While I don't agree with most of your views and courses of action on this thread, I do recognize your right to express them and appreciate the civil manner in which you have done so. Thank you sir for the discussion.
 
Well said SW. And thank you too, CMichael for keeping your cool.

However, I disagree entirely with CMichael.

I think the question you need to ask yourself is if you are putting the cop's life in more jeopardy by doing what you are doing and not calling for help as soon as possible.
You are putting the cop in jeopardy by not doing anything right then and there. How long do you suppose it'll be before the BGs beat and shoot the cop to death? One minute? Ten minutes? 30 minutes? Long enough for you to get to a spot where you can make your call? Long enough for the police to respond and save the deputy's life in the nick of time? C'mon.

This is assuming that the bad guys don't just stand there frozen in your headlights while you easily hit them with bullets.
If they move off, you've already accomplished your first goal: getting them away from the officer. Also, you would not shoot at them---if you had to---from inside your vehicle. It is implied that you will have stepped out and positioned yourself strategically.

That is why I suggested getting the call made then coming back by distracting them by firing at them.
Huh? Do I understand that you would go and call the cops and then you would come back and fire at the BGs to distract them? I thought your primary goal was to kill them.
 
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By the way, CMichael...

How does your state differentiate between shooting to stop and shooting to kill? Here in Texas---and everywhere else I've so far checked---shooting with the intent to kill is a serious felony. Shooting with the intent to stop is keeping within the law. A technicality, mind you, that would tip the balance in court.

Are you a permit holder? You should already know this :cool:
 
Me >>I think the question you need to ask yourself is if you are putting the cop's life in more jeopardy by doing what you are doing and not calling for help as soon as possible.

Rick >>You are putting the cop in jeopardy by not doing anything right then and there. How long do you suppose it'll be before the BGs beat and shoot the cop to death? One minute? Ten minutes? 30 minutes? Long enough for you to get to a spot where you can make your call? Long enough for the police to respond and save the deputy's life in the nick of time? C'mon. <<

That's why I suggested shooting , getting them to take cover, and then driving off to call for help. It will take the focus off beating the office.


Me >>This is assuming that the bad guys don't just stand there frozen in your headlights while you easily hit them with bullets.
Rick >>If they move off, you've already accomplished your first goal: <<
getting them away from the officer. Also, you would not shoot at them---if you had to---from inside your vehicle. It is implied that you will have stepped out and positioned yourself strategically. <<

I don't that's a great idea. If I move out of the vehicle I diminsh my chances of making a quick escape if I had to.

I still don't think having a shootout with two or at least one badguy in the dark with a police officer right where you are shooting is a great idea.

Me >>That is why I suggested getting the call made then coming back by distracting them by firing at them. <<

Rick >>Huh? Do I understand that you would go and call the cops and then you would come back and fire at the BGs to distract them? I thought your primary goal was to kill them.<<

The opposite. Fire on them. Cause them to think of their safety rather than the officer. Call the police, and then come back.

As far as your question about my state laws about shoot to kill vs shoot to stop I don't know. I don't own a handgun.

Shooting to kill is shooting to stop. Obviously if the bad guy is on the ground and still alive but incapacitated I am not going to shoot him in the head for the hell of it.

My point is that I am aiming in the center of the chest, not for a gun hand or the leg. If I shoot him in the leg he can still shoot his next bullet could be lethal.

Michael
 
I generally refrain from jumping into these threads, BUT.....

I have just quickly scanned the responses on this thread so far, so as to avoid cluttering up my mind and my response.

I live in the country, so this scenario isn't too far-fetched. Assuming I drove up on the scene as originally described, and seeing what has been described (no more, no less), here's MY take.

As an old, fat(not TOO fat)guy, I'm going to use my large truck as cover as best I can. I'm going to try to get these folks in my headlights, so I can see what the heck's happening. I'm going to lean across my hood with my 9mm, get sighted in on BG1 (w/stick) and holler "Freeze". If there is the slightest hesitation on their part, I'm going to double-tap BG1 and shift quickly to BG2. If he's still moving at all, he'll get the next two rounds. Keep in mind that during all this time, I am in mortal fear for my own life, since I am a witness to this crime. I am also in fear for the life of the deputy (whom I probably know).

I would probably refrain from administering the "coup de gras", but those two suckers better lie REAL still if they're still breathing. If either of them has failed to depart this earthly veil, they will lie face (nose) in the dirt, hands behind their head, fingers clasped, legs spread wide and feet in the air. Any further movement on their part will result in completion of the job.

There - that's my quick take on it. If I sat around and pondered on it, I might think of something I would do differently, but for now - that's it! :cool:
 
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