Country Road Scenario

D

David Scott

New member
It's about 11PM, and you are driving down an unlit, curving country road. You're at least 10 miles from anything that resembles civilization, and in a cell phone "dead zone" -- no signal. You are by yourself and carrying your CCW weapon.

As you round a curve, you see flashing red and blue lights ahead. You naturally slow down in case there's an accident, but as you come closer you see a Sheriff's car pulled up behind a black Monte Carlo. In between the two cars, a Deputy is lying on the ground, shielding his head as one large, scruffy looking dude is beating him with his own nightstick and the other is tugging at the Deputy's sidearm, trying to free it from its retention holster.

What do you do?
 
If I'm in my own jurisdiction, I intervene and apprehend/arrest the two miscreants. So far, it is a no shoot situation since the deputy's weapon is still in the retention holster.
If I am outside my jurisdiction, I will still intervene, but the deputy once he regains his feet will be the one to handle the arrest.
Chances are the sight of my headlights coming up on them will be enough to cause them to freeze, at least momentarily. If the one tugging at the pistol does succeed in drawing it, he is going to get shot.
 
In this instance

I have every reason to believe that the officer's life is in jeopardy. I produce my weapon, order the BGs to stop. If they don't, I perforate the one wielding the nightstick to save the officer from potential death and hope that it convinces the other to cease his attempts to relieve the downed officer of his weapon. I assess whether BG1 (nightstick) is incapacitated and if BG2 has ceased his attempts to remove the weapon. Proceed logically from there.

If the BGs stop upon my first command to do so, I order them away from the downed officer and let him regain his feet. Then I keep the BGs covered until he can arrest them.

Golgo-13, can you explain for me why it is a no-shoot situation if the officer's weapon is still holstered? I would think that the beating with the nightstick is enough to justify the use of deadly force to protect the life of another. Is it because the officer has not yet been incapacitated and rendered incapable of defending himself?
 
I didn't fully explain myself, I guess I was thinking faster than I was typing. I would give a verbal order to freeze and then to drop the stick and for both miscreants step away from the officer. The part that I left out was "assuming the guy with the stick stops beating the deputy." If he keeps whooping the deputy he gets shot, if the would-be gunsnatcher doesn't give up on his activities, he gets shot.
 
I would not confront them.

One has a gun since he got it from the officer. The other one may have one I don't know.

The officer is already getting blows and probably won't be able to help.

I would call 911 as soon as I could.

Michael
 
I'd pull up as close as possible to the group, double tap both of the attackers COM, then peel out of there because carrying a loaded handgun in your car is illegal in the People's Republic of MD, and I also wouldnt want to be arrested for murdering the two, also so I could call 911 as soon as possible. If my cell phone is dead, the deputy's radio is most likely dead too. If I were in any of the surrounding states, I would stick around to make sure the deputy was ok and that the two wouldnt be hurting him anymore.

Kharn
 
You'd shoot the guys, and then admit to it on a CELL PHONE? Excuse me, but...

Guys, the cop is in trouble. The bad guys may figure out his retention holster at any second... If I was carrying, I'd pop one into the perps' car, and if they didn't immediately cease and desist, then it's mozambique time...

Odds are, however, that I'd have a rifle in the rear of the truck, and it'd take a little while to get to it... Which means I'd likely hit reverse, back up, and observe from afar while getting to it...
 
I've lived on a winding country road, exactly like the one you described, for 10 years. Cell phones won't work unless you hike to the top of a hill. Neighbors are spread apart and driveways to get to them can be long.

I think I would drive up as close as a could. If the one BG has taken the officer's gun, I would use my truck as cover. At this point, I would open fire - the bad guys would be standing tall over the fallen officer, giving me a clear shot. I don't thnk I could do a "freeze, hold it there" maneuver - I'm more afraid of them grabbing the cop and using him as a shield. My high beams would be directly in their eyes - the harder for them to pinpoint me.

If all three are still scuffling on the ground, I would probably grab my ASP and whack away. Since I am as efficent left handed as I am right handed with my ASP, my gun will be in my right hand, ready in case both of the BG's come after me and the officer is unable to fight and even the odds.
 
Golgo-13

Thanks very much for the clarification. I thought that I had the right of it, but wanted to be sure there wasn't some legal issue that I wasn't aware of.
 
I would like to amend my previous response.

I think a lot would depend on their reaction. If they don't see me yet I would probably try to shoot them and get the element of surprise.

If they are pointing guns at me I would drive off.

I think a good weapon might be to hit them with my car if I could.

It's a complicated scenerio.
Michael
 
I don't see how the scenario is complicated. Elements of the scenario can cause things to become complicated, but as I have said in a previous post, if you do nothing, to me, you are as bad as the criminals. Society in general suffers when the general populace fails to protect itself.

There was an incident here in Ohio, where in downtown Columbus at night a guy tried to kidnap a woman. If it had not been for a passerby intervening, this woman would have surely been raped, killed and other unmentionable things. When they did catch the guy responsible seems that the above mentioned nasty things all came out on an arrest record.

If you can live with your conscience knowing that you could have saved a life and did nothing, then more power to you. Just remember, though, karma is a "female dog", and she tends to bite back harder on your turn.

What if it was you on the cold blacktop, being beaten unmercifully by 2 BGs and people just kept driving by and wouldn't help. I think your attitude would change.
 
At the security firm I worked for, hitting someone with a night stick or ASP anywhere but the outer thigh was considered deadly force. If a blow to the head by an officer would be trated as deadly force, it should be considerd the same from a BG. I would personaly treat it the same as if the offenders where shooting at the officer. No "freeze" (gotta love being a civie), no "drop the stick" just drill 'em and bandage the cop.
 
Some good responses. I agree with those who think that the BG's actions -- beating the Deputy and trying to get his gun -- justify deadly force. Under the law here (Florida) you're justified in using deadly force (a) to stop a felony in progress, like assaulting a police officer with a weapon (nightstick), and (b) to prevent death or serious bodily harm to an innocent person, which also applies here.

Personally, I would position my truck so that the high beams were on them, blinding them and giving me concealment behind the glare. Using the truck as cover, I would immediately shoot the guy with the nightstick, since he is the one causing harm right now. If the guy who's tugging on the Deputy's pistol didn;t back off and raise his hands AT ONCE, he would be shot, too.

If they surrender, though, you're faced with the problem of how to maintain control of them while you call for help. The Deputy may be unconscious. Since cell phones don't work out here, you'll need to use the patrol car's radio. How do you suggest one would act if both men, upon seeing you, put up their hands and cried out, "We give up, don't shoot"?
 
Gryphon it's very easy for us to be the superhero who will easily shoot the bad guys and come to the rescue.

In the real world though bad guys will shoot back.

There is also the possibility of hitting the officer by mistake. It is at night.

I think it turning into a shoot out is far from the ideal situation.

Michael
 
Down here in So. California, we are not allowed to have loaded weapons, on our person, or in our cars. But if we feel there is an immediate need, we are allowed to load our weapons.

I used to keep my ruger .357 revolver in my truck, and a box or two of Cor-Bons in the glove compartment. Easier to load six rounds into a revolver, than 15 into a clip. Of course, that was before someone broke in my truck and took my pistol.

If i was too see the situation that you are talking about, i would load as quickly as possible, even if it is only a partial clip, and i would challenge the BGs. If they are standing/crouching over the fallen officer, then they are too close in my opinion for a rushed shot. i would of course turn on my brights, and use them for cover, and try to get closer to the officer, hoping the BGs back off the officer. If BG2 gets the gun out.....then hes dead.

Under no circumstance would i leave the officer alone out there to die by the hands of criminals.

Also, i highly doubt the police will arrest me if i just saved one of their officers.
 
Stop the car and use it for cover. If possible, with high beams shining at the bad guys. Without hesitation, exit car and open fire aiming for center of mass. Seconds count when someone is being beaten. In this case, it isn't hard to identify the enemy and the good guys.
 
NikonShooter, you bring up a point that I was wondering about.
Let's say you live in a state that has no CCW (like Missouri) and you happen upon this situation. You have shot both bad guys, either fatally or non-fatally, most likely saving the officer's life. What will be the attitudes of the officer whose life you saved and of the responding officers? Are they most likely to thank you or grill and charge you with unlawful carrying of a concealed weapon or both? Just curious as to the mindset of all officers involved in a situation such as this one.
 
In the scernerio one of the bad guys is right next to the officer. What happens if you shoot and you hit the officer and kill him?

Michael
 
The BGs may flee the scene from simply seeing your car approach, thinking it is backup for the downed officer. You may have to shoot the attackers to preserve the officers life.

In short, do whatever it takes.

I'm very well acquainted with a former deputy sheriff who took a bad beating, suffering a basal skull fracture and a ruptured liver in the process. Years later, he still has frequent, severe headaches. I know he wishes someone had helped him.

Denny
 
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