Cost of preban AR recveivers is?

Well, here is what I think....Zander has the balls to buck the system and volenteer to test the water. Vander wants stated Pressidents and so to prove his piont valid, I feel well should help out. I will order say a Bird Cage FLASH HIDER, someone else order a few more parts....Vander can buy the barrel....assemble it all and go to the range or to the local ATF office and say Flipp you guys...look what I have.
I also think while he is at it...someone should send him a Post Ban LE dated mags body, I can send him a spring, green follow and Preban floor plate and he can put it all together. Those parts as parts are okay...those parts assembled after the fact and no letter from Chief LEO on letter head means 10 years per mag.
Again the Burden of Proof is not up to them....you prove to them it was done prior too the Ban.


Why take a dump in a bad nieghbor hood to make a frutile point and possibly end up in Jail....:confused:

They aren't gonna prove nothing other than SOMEONE WAS IN POSESSION SOMETHING THAT WAS BANNED....and Bingo, we all suffer.

It is right, it only takes one bad apple to ruin the bushel....It only took one school shooting, one crazied gunman with an AR, AK or SK's guess where we ALL are....Some nit is gonna cause a post ban preban to can't own anything but a single shot break open .17
Soooo geez, buy them while you can, they will just take them later.

But then Zander will have his.......

Rambling, but firearm ownership is like a Driver's Lic.....it is a Privledge not a right.
Protect your rights and the Constiutional Rights of others...DON'T DRIVE DUNK AND RESPECT FIREARMS....ABIDE by THERE laws and rules......IRS wants your money they will take it, ATF wants your guns you are gonna see then go away.

Just me and my opinion, We all push and walk a fine line with the is this okay or that part, or this grip, this brake...WellI tried to make a Piont.

Karsten
 
Um, yoo-hoo...
Guys?
All I want is the following information:

Cost of preban receiver with all the bits: ?? Not what you think it should cost, but what it will fetch on the open market.
I also want the cost of a preban receiver without all the bits: ??
Again, not what it *should* cost, but what it is likely to fetch on the open market.
So as to allow me to compare and contrast with postban ones.
Thanks.

ctdonath- Great quote, from one of my favorite books. ;)
 
Zander, with all due respect

As an FFL holder, with the same issued ATF regulations as JohnWill (NOT hearsay from a cousin's brother, btw), I for one am not going to test the waters by assembling a stripped preban receiver into a rifle of preban configuration without some concrete documentation stating that the receiver had at one time belonged to a complete pre-September '94 rifle. Why should I be so defiant and stupid, when it's spelled out so clearly in black and white for all to read? That's an awful lot to risk over even something as semantic as pre vs. post ban configurations.

The analogy would be to state that it's ok to break ANY of the bazillion federal firearm regulations on the books, based on the fact that nobody's been busted yet for the particular offense you chose to commit. Sounds a lot like the old "It ain't illegal 'till you're caught" excuse.
Now, if one wants to volunteer to be the test guinea pig, they're more than welcome to....
 
Caliban...buy a complete damn upper and save the grief...figure it out. A2 upper, Post ban is $159.00 copmplete, complete bolt is $120, charging handle is $25.00 and you still need a barrel and pay $200 plus for the barrel. t
Then you better youy had better have dated reciept showing you put it all together all together or had said parts prior to the ban.
Correct me if I am wrong...but would those reciept need to be dated 1987 or 1989, I forget.....But for $400 bucks you get a good to go Upper Preban or Post Ban

Just an opinion

Karsten
 
WHILE WE ARE AT IT, LETS CLEAR

THE AIR ON THIS ONE........................Gerwher, Johnwill........
Don't KNOW this to be fact...............all said above I DO KNOW to be fact..............
I HEARD( no one blast off yet pls), that EVEN if you own a complete PRE BAN weapon....................you cannot change it from it's ORIGINAL FACTORY ASSEMBLED CONDITION.......or you are also in violation..............

Example;

Lets assume, for an example, I own a Green label Colt, H Bar, 20" barrel..................full stock...........
Lets assume, I change the stock to a collapsible model.........

I have been led to believe, ........you CANNOT change the factory assembled piece from the orig shipped config...........true, or false?????????.


( To check the ORIGINAL config), all that is req'd is to call the mfgr, give s/n.......and you will know.
 
IMHO, YMMV, IANAL, IDNPOOTV

if the gun in question existed pre september 13 1994, as a fully operational AR15, then it is classified as a grandfathered PreBan Semi-Automatic Assault Weapon.

it is allowed to gain or loose any number of semi auto rifle features

if the lower receiver was never documented as leaving the factory pre september 1994 as an assembled gun then it is a grey area part

The serial number should prove when it left the factory.

If it was built up as a rifle at any time pre Sept 1994 then it is a Grandfathered SAW

If you are rooting thru Grampas shed and you find a box with a 1991 postmark and in the box there is a never been built AR 15 lower...

sorry that is not a grandfathered part

now prooving that it was never built would be tricky

i would be leary of buying a "pre ban" lower receiver from someone randomly on the web



Bardwell has a good SAW faq:
http://almond.srv.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/semi_auto_faq.txt

as far as value
i have seen preban 1992 Colt AR rifles with documentable serial numbers for 1100 dollars

a documented preban SAW receiver could be worth 400-600 dollars
 
"Now, show me ANY legal opinion that what you state is true, that a bare pre-ban manufacture date receiver can be legally assembled into a pre-ban configuration today."

I didn't say that.

Perhaps you'll be kind enough to quote back to me what I said that you misconstrued...I'll be happy to straighten you out.

And I think you know darn well that I'm looking for a cite [I said "case law"] on a prosecution and conviction by the BATF/DOJ, not the law as written.
 
My last post on this, but, unless these convictions are being appealed, there is NOTHING TO CITE.

Trial court level decisions are not reported except in the media. THe official reporters only contain cases decided at the appellate level and above.
 
"Trial court level decisions are not reported except in the media." -- CG87

You're probably correct...a case such as this would have been of very little interest to the firearms community, the fanatics in the gun ban movement and the "take 'em all" politicians. :rolleyes:
 
There! You've made my point...

...succinctly and accurately.

"I seem to recall about 70 folks that died at Waco in what certainly seemed to be an unconstitutional engagement! You're talking theory, and I'm talking reality!"

You're a little short on the number of men, women, children and infants murdered at Mt. Carmel.

The BATboys accomplished exactly what they wanted with manufactured evidence, illegal warrants, unlawful use of force, ad nauseum. Your response/mindset is exactly what they sought...that they are above the law.

You may be willing to cede the more important elements of the Constitution to rogue federales.

I am not.

And your "reality" would be laughed out of the vast majority of courts in this land.
 
"Um, yoo-hoo...
Guys?
All I want is the following information:

Cost of preban receiver with all the bits: ??" -- caliban

A good quality pre-ban assembled receiver these days will vary according to brand, but if you could pick one up for $500 or so, you'd certainly be in the lower end of the retail ballpark.

A stripped pre-ban lower will not be much different in cost...lower parts packages run $60-75 and you can find a buttstock assembly, used but in good shape, for $50 or so. Interestingly, if you're mechanically-inclined, you can build a brand-new post-ban rifle with a brand-name lower for $600.

If you want to talk specifics on pre-bans, e-mail me.

That way, we won't have to listen to the purveyors of doom when we talk specifics. :cool:
 
So as to appear more than simply a purveyor of doom...

I offer this.

This is my pre-ban stripped Olympic Arms lower, which I purchased in August of 1994 for all of $50.00. It's marked as "Mod. M.F.R." and has a serial number of H077x. It shows very little use, and came off a full-sized bitser AR-15 that was used in the 3-gun IPSC matches. At the time, Oly Arms lowers were being derided for their cast models, so folks were ditching them for the forged versions. I pounced on it, it's been in my receiver drawer ever since.

I personally saw the completed rifle, and competed against it at the matches, prior to September 1994. But since the proof is on me in a court, this particular receiver will instead be built into a heavy-barreled 6mm PPC varmint/benchrest rig, no flash supressor or bayonet lug.

My bayonet lug and flash hider reside on a pre-ban Colt Competition HBAR sitting safely in my collection of things AR-ish. Even then, I take some comfort in knowing that the Colt has that silly sear block in the lower receiver, precluding me from making it a full-auto, but also precluding any of the ATF technicians from doing the same and setting me up for a fall...
 

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It seems to me...there are poeple out there that indeed do want to push the wrong buttons as far as possible. To me that amounts to a very irreversable mistake.

Oh Well.

Karsten :confused:
 
I agree with johnwill's last post. However, to correct what was said about reporting of legal cases, trial court level cases are in fact reported in official reporters, not just appellate court cases. Not all of them, but many. My suggestion to us all is that when we don't really know the answer to a question, that we indicate in our posts that we are guessing or speculating (even when done in an educated fashion). The information conveyed will be of more use to the recipients, and will avoid an occasional embarrassment to the poster. My comment is not limited to posts about what types of cases are reported, or even to this thread, but in general for posts on TFL. Just my opinion as to what would be of the most use to me as a reader. Thanks.
 
"...this particular receiver will instead be built into a heavy-barreled 6mm PPC varmint/benchrest rig, no flash supressor or bayonet lug."

Well, shucks, where's your sense of adventure?

Tell you what...I'll call your bluff. Trade me the lower receiver for a forged, name-brand receiver and we'll both be happy. I have several in post-ban configuration...choose one. :cool:

You'll have a much stronger receiver and I'll have inherited your "legal liability".

Deal? :)
 
"I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I think I've had about enough fun with this thread."

I, for one, am shocked! :rolleyes:

If it ever strikes you that you'd like to provide a real, substantive reply, do bleat it out, John.
 
Hi Hickman.

You have my word that this post is seeking information only, as I try to learn something new each day, especially here among friends.

Are trial court decisions reported officially in your jurisdiction? In Pa, where I attended law school, and in PRK, where I practice, only appellate and higher decisions are reported.

THe legal papers often "report" on cases the editor thinks are interesting, but other than this or stumbling on one while in court, the goings on at the trial level are a mystery.

I will revise my post to say that in Pa and Kali, trial court decisions are not contained in official reporters, and therefore do not lend themselves to rapid legal research as appellate decisions do. No speculation here, I use them every day.

I would appreciate any information about where trial court decisions are officially reported, as well as any criteria used to determine exactly why the decision to publish some cases is made.

Thanks.

Edited to add: PS, I'm not sure any speculation took place here. It is clearly illegal to assemble a preban configured rifle which was not a complete preban cinfigured rifle before the ban. The law speaks for itself, and it is not one person's interpretation. THe speculation only enters when one disregards the clear meaning and assembles one anyway. The speculation is "what would happen?", which is not the same thing as "Is it illegal?" which was the point of the many posts on this subject.
 
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