Cops writing other cops tickets.

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Hello all

As this will be my very first post I'll try to be nice.
But I do have a few questions.
1. how does remaining in your car increase officer saftey, in your car you would have ready access to any number of closed or hidden compartments not visable from outside the vehicle.
If you'r out side the vehicle, and your hands are in the open, officer saftey would be much improved.
I realize this may prevent the free peek inside but if this is about officer saftey?
2. This post by 12-34hom has the smell of a troll?
 
Adam, for the first question, I don't know. I would simply think that anyone who rushes out of a car is giving the impression of attack, so I'd want the good guys to stay in the car. Yes, you have access to hidden weapons, but that's why the cops around here insist that your hands be in sight, preferably on the steering wheel.

For the second, I often disagree with 12-34. However, he is not a troll. He's been here a long time and though he's often a minority of one on some issues, I believe that's simply because he voices even his most unpopular opinions. A lot of us met him and his wife in Missouri recently and they're good folks.
 
First off, if a Cop is speeding on or off duty TICKET HIM! (except on call of course). I See State cops in Mass speeding ALL the time (I drive 495 & 95). On many occasions I got passed or even tail gated by them as they cant wait to pass, or even like to intimidate the regular folk.

What gives, some sort of exemption!!!

And give the Radar Detector bit a rest will you? If you will use tools to hunt speeders, dont give them crap for defending themselves. Saying having a radar shows intent is similar to saying someone who has a gun shows intent, BS!

Think of it this way, if as a motorist I get pulled over and you find I'm CCW (legal, of course) you go into yellow alert, why....? Because you might thing I may do something stupid, simply by having one. Same with a radar detector, if I have one I may speed? Get real.

Guilty until proven innocent!!

Speed doesn't kill, incompetence does!!! I'll give you that speed will make matters worse. But 99% of all my close calls are me driving the speed limit and some jerk pulling SLOWLY out in font of me.

Chris
 
Adam,

Not only is 'staying in your car' better for officer safety, its better for the perp's safety too. Do you really think wandering about on the side of the highway is safe? Are you not aware of the numbers of officers killed by 3rd party drivers during traffic stops? (i.e. unaware drives hitting officers/cruisers.)

Perhaps i'm wrong, but how does the officer have the right to search the immediate area of the person in the car without a warrent? I was aware that the law generally says, "visual search" only. Further, if the officer wants to search the person, he'll have to order him out of the car (further making the car inaccessable.) Any help here?



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~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Are LEO's above the law? Nope! Therefore, they should be ticketed any time a citizen would have been ticketed. IMHO, it should be grounds for arrest to display a badge to try to get out of a ticket. It is bigotry to only write those that are privately employed.

As for getting out of the vehicle, I disagree. You should remain in your vehicle and the officer has every right to request this. The second that officer turns his lights on behind you, you are his/her responsibility. If you are blinded and swerve, it is the department's fault. If you pull off and your car falls into a vat of quicksand, it is the department's fault. If you step out in traffic and get hurt or killed, it is the department's fault. It is all a matter of liability as well as safety for the officer.
 
So I'm running up I-5 in convoy with another driver that is a retired CHP . 32 years on the job . We go through the scales and he gets the red light . I pull over and park in case it's a paperwork problem and I may help . We are with the same company so maybe I have what he needs . No such luck . He is over on the trailer . 1400 pounds . It can be shifted so I offer to help . The cop wants to write him . Rich tells him we will shift it and we had no access to a scale before this . He tells him that he is retired CHP and has seen this slide many times .
The scale cop says that he will give him a break and write him for only 1000 pounds over . Rich tells him that in 32 years on the job he never wrote another cop for minor stuff . The scale cop says " too bad " . Rich goes off on him and tells him to write it for the full weight . If he's gonna be a jerk at least be an accurate jerk . The LT comes out of his office and asks what the problem is . He tells Rich to go over the scales again . Once again he is over on the trailer . The LT informs the scale cop that he misread the scale and the truck is just UNDER the limit . He looks the cop in the eye when he tells him and all is well . The LT asks Rich if he will be stopping soon . Rich says " Yessir , the next truck stop ." The LT says " That's good ."
We get to the next truck stop and Rich pulls in . He begins to slide the trailes axles so as to get legal . I ask why do it now . Rich tells me that the LT told him to . Now I'm confused . I heard no such thing . Rich tells me it was insinuated . It seems that when that LT was a newbie he had a Training Officer as all newbies do . Guess who that LT's TO was .

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
Well, I guess I've been blowing it for years. Most of the time when I am stopped for a moving violation (usually speeding), the cop never is there when I get myself to the shoulder. I think I need to wait on the cop because I was speeding and he had to accelerate from a dead stop.

Any way, before the police car ever arrives, I am standing at my car's rear bumper with proof of insurance and drivers license in hand.

No one has ever ask that I return to the vehicle. I would most certainly obey the command, it's just that I've never been ask. They have never seemed upset by what I did.

Numbers
 
Bad Medicene, Not to flame you or anyone else but I'll tell you why I run 10 or 15 Mph over the speed limit with the "Lights Off".It is because the public doesn't go stir crazy like they do when I turn on the lights and or siren.

It is much safer for me to travel among all of the other traffic, which is usually running over the limit anyway, than to have them slowing down to 30 mph or stopping in the middle of the road. If you guys would keep right or pull to the right shoulder of the road like the law requires we wouldn't have this problem. I'd run the lights!

When I'm in-route to a call that requires a speedy arrival, I know that you don't know where I'm going and say exactly what you already have stated. But, it is much safer to run safely over the limit than to create a more dangerous situation with most all of the public not having a clue of the propper procedure of response to 10-33 traffic.

OK, I heard that!......and the answer to that statement is, What if you are on the other end? How many times have I been asked "What took you so long?" Everyone that calls wants us there when they hang up the phone. Eveyone on the way thinks that they are being infringed upon because we hurry to a call.

I'm in a rural area and we have good major highways, this is where we can have safe travel. I'm not saying screem through secondary roads and neighborhoods. So think about our end of it before you start your rant. It seems that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I wnat to get too the call to answer it and I want to get there as safe as I can.

The officer that was going to a call you spoke of, well, he probably had another officer take that call that could respond that was close by.He then had an oppertunity to address your following him. Had he had his lights on he could have written you a ticket for following and emergency vehicle.

Also do you yeild to emergency traffic in a propper manner? Or do you drive in the left lane and think, "Well I'm just going up the road aways and he can wait." Would you want your wife or child to wait until I got there because of your thoughts? Some calls we think are about a cat in the tree are really an emergency and some calls that come out 10-33 are about a cat. Go figure. And you wonder why we have stress?

Oh yes, been wanting to say all this for sometime. Sorry for the RANT, but that's how it is............

[This message has been edited by PROSOUTH (edited September 07, 2000).]
 
Okay. wow. lotsa points. lotsa stuff to say.

ORIGINAL POINT:

Well done. He deserved the ticket. I've never written a fellow officer, but I've also never had an officer try to arrogantly badge his way out of anything. If I did, I return to the Prime Directive of traffic law enforcement: decide what you're going to do before you approach the car the first time.

Yeah yeah, I know. Few cops ever actually *DO* that, myself included. This is what I do: I obseve the infraction, decide if its PROBABLY going to merit a warning or a cite. I make a clear note of this to myself. I then approach the car, get the scoop, go back to my car, and think it over. If I feel myself wanting to give an 'attitude ticket' I go back to my original plan, regardless. This translates into me letting a few a-holes go but not writing anyone that shouldn't be written. I can live with that.

Other points:

1. Cops speeding off-duty.

I drive like a hellion, and always have. My traffic record was the one thing that my Oral Board could dig into. If I got pulled over, I always cooperated, admitted my fault and taken my lumps. I still do to this day- yes, I will mention that I'm a cop...and if I skate, great, if I don't, no biggie. I broke the law. I'll pay my ticket.

I expect any other officer to do the same.

2. Cops speeding ON duty

Well, I drive like a hellion ( ;)), whether I'm on a run or not. But you know what? Often I *AM* on a run when I am speeding, or doing whatever that might raise eyebrows. Remember- the pencilneck lawyers are running things now...for heaven's sake, we shouldn't be running lights and sirens on ANYTHING...someone might wreck! There are VERY VERY few runs that we are legally allowed to run priority...but there are many times when we SHOULD get there fast- remember, it might be your house that's being broken into.

The practical upshot of this is cops are gonna run fast to get to important calls. In the good ole days this meant running lights and sirens. Now this means running fast and not keeping lights and sirens on. Sometimes this is more dangerous, some times its not. Blame the lawyers. ;)

(SIDE NOTE: you would not believe the idiocy that is caused by flipping on a siren. Some people suddenly lose all common sense. Its amazing. Magical, almost.)

Now, I won't blow smoke- cops do speed and stuff 'cause they can. Yeah. I apply my same philosophy to this: if I get caught, I'll take my punishment, no gripes. And yes, I do try to keep it to a dull roar...its best to lead by example.

(SIDE NOTE: just becuase a cop blows two lights and tears down a street at 50 mph and ends up at the local Tim Hortons does NOT mean he was being obnoxious. Priority calls get cancelled. It is a VERY odd sensation to be FLYING along, flashing through intersections, sending people scurrying out of your way- and suddenly you get cancelled, and you immediately revert to legal speeds. At the next light everyone you just blew past catches up to you and glares at you, thinking you must be retarded or something. Really.)

3. GETTING OUT OF THE CAR ON A TRAFFIC STOP

Actually, you do not have the right to do that. Once a car is lit up, it (and everyone in it) is being 'detained.' And yes, people have gone to jail for refusing to return to their vehicle. There are several supreme court cases about this very issue.

4. Officer safety and staying in the car

In a properly executed traffic stop, the officer is much safer with you in the car as opposed to out of the car. yes, there are more places to grab things from, but 1. grabbing things from them tends to be a visible action (believe it or not) and 2. its kinda difficult to employ a weapon, even a gun, from a car seat.

Think about the last time you were pulled over, especially at night. If the stop was well executed, you would have had to work VERY hard to see the officer apporaching your car...between the headlights, the beacons, the takedown lights, the spotlight, the flashlight in his hand that he keeps shining in your eyes, the fact that he is standing behind the door post, body 'bladed'...add it all together and he can see you clearly and you probably can't see him much at all. And if you want to assault him, you have to do some very awkward contortions or a quick exit of the vehicle to do it.

No no...keep them in the car.

And besides...the biggest threat on a traffic stop on a highway is being nailed by another driver. You're safer in your car that way, too.

Okay, enough blahblahblah for one night :)

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
First I'll address 12-34,

"When i stop any vehicle [for wharever lawful reason] your going to play by my rules.. period. Any traffic stop can be as friendly or nasty as the driver of the stopped vehicle wants to make it on themselfs. Lifes all about choices and taking responsibility for your actions. Choose wisely..."

Ok, he may have a wife and kids, and they may or may not be "good people" But this holier than though crap ain't going to cut it. You are an supposed to protect and work FOR THE PEOPLE!! If you feel jumpy and wanna pull your side arm, I sure as hell am gonna pull mine. I don't like having guns pointed at me and I trust me alot more than I trust any "stranger" in a blue suit. I don't care if the state deems you responsible to carry a gun, they deem me responsible too, so if ya wanna get jumpy, my only advise can be to shoot strait!!!! like you said "choose wisely"
Now, PROSOUTH, your turn. I understand that you have to get to emergencies as quickly as possible. If it was my family, I'd want you there AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, BUT this does not mean you are above the law. If you have to speed to get there, PUT ON YOUR LIGHTS, then we can get safely out of your way. If you come speeding up on us without them on you are endangering yourself, and are putting us at risk. I may not realize that you are speeding, and switch lanes only to be rear-ended by a cop, then the emergency at the other end will have to wait. If it is your opinion that it is safe to go 15 or so over the speed limit, then why not raise it? or is it only safe for you to and not us?? there they go AGAIN thinking they're above the law.
Yes, I do pull over for flashing lights, and yes, I know it's against the law to follow emergency vehicles, when they're working, or have there lights on, this doesn't mean you can never head down the same road as a 10-33 vehicle. I didn't go out that day and decide to "go follow some cop," I was just driving along when the unconcous idiot decided he was in hot pursuit of the donut shop, and there was no time to turn on the lights, he was hungry, and I MEAN NOW!!!! No, I followed him to point out that without the lights he is just another american in persuit of a life, liberty and happiness. He has to work, and he has to obey the laws that we as a society have decided need to be obeyed. We are a domocracy that votes on public issues and just because the boys in blue enforce those laws it doesn't mean they are Immune. As far as radar detectors????? Innocent until proven guilty. Are we to be oppressed by our own kind, I would think on a gun-owners forum everybody here would understand, possetion of anything, does not prove intent, and you as a cop should know that you'll have to have alot more evidence than that to make something like that stick. Some states have decided that they are illegal, but where they aren't you guys should not be so biased. You might as well start arresting people whose speedometers go over 75 (except in montana) Because no other state allows it. Why would they buy a car that fast if they didn't intend to drive it???? Somebody needs to take a good stout pole and knock you guys off your high-horses!!
Sorry for the rant, but I too, had these things to say.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BadMedicine:
Thank you, but No. I'll get out of my car whenever I feel like it. You're out of yours. And if you pull your gun because yuou feel it's a "situation", I'll pull mine.[/quote]


And you will Die and you will deserve it.
You in getting out of your car have become an agressor in the officers eyes. He has every right to take action. From asking you to get back into your car to pulling his gun and arresting you. If you pull your weapon you deserve the bullets that are about to turn you into a piece of meat.
 
If government (and the LEO community, by derivation) wants folks to respect the law, they need to respect the law themselves. So ticketing the jerk was the right thing to do. Of course, there's the question whether this guy was really a former LEO or a just a mop jockey down at the county muni building.

The whole thing about yielding to emergency vehicles is one of my pet peeves. Where I'm living now, everyone pulls over for a funeral procession, even if they're on the other side of the road, but won't do a damn thing for an ambulance. Now, I hate to be harsh, but the guy in the casket has all the time in the world, but the guy in the ambulance has a bit of a time crunch.

The one situation that is confusing is at a traffic light; if I break the law and make a right or left turn against the light to clear a lane for the fire/police/whatever vehicle, am I going to get drilled for the infraction? And are the other drivers clued in enough to give me maneuvering room?

On the search issue, I disagree with the current random search doctrine (heck, I'd like to see LEOs cited for a misdemeanor every time they violate the 4th) but I'd rather not get squashed by a semi. Of course, all the time I see the state patrol guys on the driver's side of the vehicle on the local interstate, which indicates a death wish IMHO.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ledbetter:
I agree with Bad Medicine. The only reason the cops want you to stay in the car is so they can search everything within arm's reach of you if they want, without a warrant.

Get out of the car if it's safe and walk to the back of your car with your license and registration in hand. Don't get back in until you're ready. Slavery isn't legal anymore and theoretically we're still a free nation.

Regards,

Ledbetter[/quote]
Sorry, but one needs PC to search the inside of the car and it won't matter if your inside or out.



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Steve
LPD
 
Bad Medicene, I see that you have a severe anomosity, but it is apparent that you don't understand what we have to contend with either.

It seems that someone has given you that bad medicene and I'm sorry for that event.

However, you people go nuts when we turn on the lights. I also have to drive the Ambulance on occasion. People respond to an ambulance much better than they do a Police car. Why? I figure they assume it is an emergency to get someone to the Hospital.
They are unsure about a Police car though.I don't understand how you arrive at that mentality? Or what gives you the right to judge what we do in the course of our serving you.Afterall you don't even know the nature of our call.Got a scanner? So? We take a lot of our calls by cellphone to avoid the public rubberneckers.

You are worried about me hitting you in the backend ? Well so am I, that's why I'm afraid to turn on the lights is because I don't want to spook y'all and watch you go crazy.

As far as "turning on the lights" if we did everytime that we had a call that needed to be addressed quickly. Well, you would then complain about haveing to pull over and let us have the roadway. So I don't think you guys will ever be happy.

I'm just being honest about how I get to a call and why I exceed the posted limit and not run the lights. Most of you are like a Rat in a Barrel when we turn them on. You lock the brakes and stop in the middle of the road or act like you don't see us.Do you think we are going to stop you and you are above being stopped? So you really show us don't you,you just keep putting down the road and you do what? Oh! You have rebelled against the mean ol' Police.

It seems that our reasoning of each other conflicts. I do what I have to and for some reason you it galls you to death. Your attitude is your business. I have a job to do and whatever it takes to do it, so be it. If you don't like it, get over it. Someday you'll need one of us and then you'll be ranting OK. You'll be wanting to know what took so long, and we'll be doing 55 to get there. Then it is you that always calls and complains that we didn't get there fast enough , "After all you work for me, I'm a taxpayer." God I'm sick of that one too.

I'm Pro-Gun, Pro-American, I'm pro-everything that you are, I'm the guy next door. I'm the one who looks for your kid when he's lost. But!I'm also the one that YOU teach your child "That mean ol'Policeman will get you and take you to jail." You don't know how bad it hurts to make a child cry because YOU teach him to fear us or hate us. Is that where you got your attiude? Were you taught this from childhood too?

High Horse? That is your adjective not mine. I am not above you. I do not exceed the speed in the course of my job just to make you fell inferior or make you mad. It seems that you do that well enough all on your own.

I didn't intend to flame you, or pour gas on your fire. I only wanted to explain how much of this we hear. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Sorry you feel the way you do, but I didn't start your fire and I'm convinced that I can't put it out.

Think about what I've said, I'm not your enemy. I don't have to look for someone to prey upon, the world is full of BGs. It's only a job.And somebody's got to do it.......
 
coronach

I like the way you think, honest post.
I have heard so many cops tell me that one of the reasons for becoming a leo was because they liked to go fast, I can think of worse reasons.
As for stayimg in the vehicle, well I dunno, on a busy street, for my own saftey, yes, but when you look at how many cops are getting hurt today, even with the stay in the car policy, I'm not convinced, I think it's for the free look inside.
When I was in my 20's (20 years ago)I liked to go fast, and I was stopped often, it wasn't a big deal to get out and go back to the officers car, was often invited to sit down in the passenger seat while he wrote a ticket, usually just a warning.
There was very little tension, I was never treated like a potential threat, hell, it never even occured to me to hurt a cop.
I did not feel threatened by him and he did not feel threatened by me, times sure have changed.
 
Badmedicine,
Pull your little stunt and you will be held up by the media as why people should not own guns. You will just hurt ALL of us. Thankyou in advance.
 
Badmedicine, look at this situation.

You do exactly what you say you are going to do. You pul your weapon on the police officer and shoot him for doing his job. Luckily you do not kill him.
Now if you are lucky enough to survive you wil be arrested. If you escape don't expect to get any sympathy here. Now say you fin out that Cop was a Fellow TFLer. Would that make a difference to you?

Now say you kill him. You find out he is a fellow TFLer and has a Family. I hope you would have to sit there and explain to his children and widow why he is not coming home anymore.
Keep in mind that this is all aside of how we would all be demonised by the News Media. And rightfully so in this case.

Now I ask a favor of you. As one Gun owner and TFLer to another. Leave your gun at home untill you get rid of this "I am better than every one else" attitude. If you really beieve what you said above you are a Danger to yourself, others, and the RKBA movement as a whole. This isn't meant as a flame. Just as a statement of fact. This isn't an oficer trying to take away your rights. He is stoping you for puting other people in a possibly dagerous situaton. And he wants to go home just as bad as anyone else every night. He has that right. And if you or anyone else put him in danger he has every right to put you on the ground. Same goes for all of us.
If you are going to pull your gun do it for a good reason. Not because you have already done something stupid and want to cover up for it.
 
Boy, I hate to agree with Bad Medicine but he makes a valid point. Having a radar detector is an indication of intent? With that logic owning a Corvette or a Porsche that can do 170 mph is a sign of intent too. Why do I own such a car? I own an AR15 too. Might as well carry this logic further with carrying a concealed weapon.
Besides, if he had a good radar detector like a Valentine 1, it would have warned him long before unless the radar unit was instant on. The guy was a jerk, period.
A car stop is a dangerous thing. I know, I made hundreds. I probably made more felony stops than most LEO`s on this board have made car stops period. The Staties do more but that`s the nature of their job. Never liked doing traffic stops but going in to see the Captain or Deputy Inspector every month because one doesn`t write movers can get old. They don`t care how many radio runs you answered that month or how many arrests you made. The one piece of paper that`s on their desk every day is summons activity.
Out of those hundreds of stops, I probably let 75% go with a verbal warning or a B.S. equipment summons that they could take care of and not get points or a fine. These were regular people, not cops. If I could do that, I certainly wasn`t going to write another cop. However, if I got a ration of ****, I would call a supervisor and let him handle it. A boss has to order an arrest of another cop. A summons for a moving violation is actually in lieu of arrest.
Anyone who got out of their car and refused to return to it had a serious problem with me. Been there, done that. I always had more ink than they had breath. Those months I made the captain very happy. Didn`t happen very often though. Most people saw the logic when it was pointed out to them.


[This message has been edited by dinosaur (edited September 07, 2000).]
 
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