Cops shoot woman wielding a crochet hook redeux

[SecDef]

No, your argument will be ignored because it's absurd.

No, even a lunging needle wielding individual can be taken down pretty easily without resorting to firearms.

It is the indoctrination of "we are not here to protect the public", "any threat upon my person requires an immediate response" that can't be applied in whole cloth on every situation.

There are lots of non-lethal methods of handling such situations.

 

[Tom2]

Did I read that right, they thought a knitting needle thingee might be a pick axe? Officer Magoo, maybe?

 

[JP Sarte]

"It's a wrongful death," Diana Hernandez, De La Torre's niece, told the Californian. She added that De La Torre suffered from epileptic seizures but had no history of violence or hurting herself during seizures. She was taking medication to control the seizures, Hernandez said

These are my favorite types of "after the fact" comments when a shooting occurs. I guess they expect all LEO's to be mind readers and have the complete social, psychological, and medical history of every suspect logged in a micro chip somewhere in the far corner's of their brains.

Here is a suggestion: Before Ms. Hernandez makes these kinds of ridiculous comments she should do the job for a year or two and then come talk to me.

Classic Monday morning quarterbacking.

JP

 

[Musketeer]

No, even a lunging needle wielding individual can be taken down pretty easily without resorting to firearms.

Do you even know how large a crochet needle is? We are talking about items that are often over a foot in length and 1/8" - 1/4" in diameter. About the size of say, an Ice Pick.

If a mentally deranged individual lunged at a cop with an ICE PICK would you have supported the LEO's use of deadly force?

This whole thread has started with the preconception that the cops were in the wrong and has detoured into claims like:

Well, part of the problem is the history of police forces denying applicants that score high on intelligence tests...

So the police refuse intelligent candidates... By default you are saying the cops are NOT INTELLIGENT. Don't dance around the fact, just say it.

The bottom line is ANY actions taken by the police would have ticked off someone. If the lady had her arm dislocated they would have been crucified. If she killed herself they would have been crucified. If she had severely injured an officer they would have been crucified.

It is sad that mentally ill people will occasionally be killed because of the threat they pose to others. What is sadder is when a mentally ill person kills or seriously injures another person.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Look, I am not generally very pro-police, as posters on this forum well know.

But imagine that Joe TFLPoster were tobe attacked by a person wielding a device like this. Wouldn't all of the people in this forum be up in arms defending him after would have shot the BG several dozen times?

Also, what is a crochet hook like? Can anybody post pictures so those of us that have no clue can make a better judgement of the situation?

 

[MicroBalrog]

After looknig it up on wikipedia, I am completely dumbfounded at the notion that someone may have genuinely felt threatened by these contraptions.

 

[hoytinak]

Also, what is a crochet hook like? Can anybody post pictures so those of us that have no clue can make a better judgement of the situation?

One of my crochet hooks (yes mine ) If someone came at me with one I'd defend myself as well.

 

[SecDef]

The bottom line is ANY actions taken by the police would have ticked off someone. If the lady had her arm dislocated they would have been crucified. If she killed herself they would have been crucified. If she had severely injured an officer they would have been crucified.

But killing her is a "good shoot" and a pat on the back? The planet you live on is so unlike this one.

 

[SecDef]

So the police refuse intelligent candidates... By default you are saying the cops are NOT INTELLIGENT. Don't dance around the fact, just say it.

If that is what I am saying by default, then I don't need to "say it". Or rather, I have said it, as you so astutely point out.

In this situation, I'm sure there was some mis-perception as to actual threat thus making it sensational. The problem I have is the code of brotherhood defending each and every officer in each and every situation. It isn't someone saying "we regret her death, but under the circumstances the officer felt he was in a position where he needed to defend himself with deadly force", it is someone saying "we think the officer did the right thing".

 

[jimpeel]

And for your repeated claims [???] that you "aren't trying to get a cop-bashing thread going", it's pretty clear from your two threads on this one incident that you WANT a cop-bashing thread to take off...you just don't want to be seen as the guy who started the bashing.

Well, there you are now, right on time, just as I said you would show up.

Tried to avoid that with the first posting but it got kicked.

I walked up on a cop one evening and apparently startled him as his hand dropped immediately to his firearm. He at least had the good sense to sum me up but that whole "going to the gun" thing bothers me a bit.

By the way. He was on poroperty under my control and I am the one who called them out for a simple vandalism call.

Did you miss that part I posted about "There was a time ..." or did you simply choose to ignore it?

 

[SecDef]

Do you even know how large a crochet needle is? We are talking about items that are often over a foot in length and 1/8" - 1/4" in diameter. About the size of say, an Ice Pick.

If a mentally deranged individual lunged at a cop with an ICE PICK would you have supported the LEO's use of deadly force?

If someone lunges at me with ANYTHING, they either hit me or find themselves on the ground instantly because I reacted as I should have. My FIRST reaction is not to pull a weapon and go for center of mass. But then, I spend more time in the martial arts studio than the firing range.

 

[azredhawk44]

But then, I spend more time in the martial arts studio than the firing range.

I'm pushing 18 years of martial arts experience too, but I know I can't dodge a bullet and I don't trust my hands to disengage a weapon that is being held by an aggressive opponent.

I DO know that I can momentarily block a first attack, then pull my pistol very quickly to fire.

Which is very similar to what officers are taught. #1, don't die. #2, stop the threat.

Look, this wasn't a no-knock supposed drug raid for a half ounce of pot with a dead family to clean up due to a botched informant address.

This is a crazy suicidal lady who tried to kill a cop with a 9-18" long aluminum shiv, and got shot for it.

 

[TimRB]

"He at least had the good sense to sum me up but that whole "going to the gun" thing bothers me a bit. "

That's right. He summed you up and relaxed. What would you have him do? A cop can get killed in the blink of an eye if he tries to bring a knife to a gunfight. We should not overlook the fact that the incident with the crochet hook took place at 3:45AM--in the dark.

Tim

 

[SecDef]

Look, this wasn't a no-knock supposed drug raid for a half ounce of pot with a dead family to clean up due to a botched informant address.

No it was a single women against at least two officers who attempted to change the situation (take her out of a van) prior to having a grasp of what was occurring.

 

[jimpeel]

I once had a guy come at me in a puffed up threatening manner and he had something shiny in his hand. While I kept my firearm pointed at CoM with my peripheral vision my eyes were locked on that hand which contained -- drumroll please -- his car keys. Anyone here think I would have gotten off with shooting this clown, who backed down immediately, for wielding a set of car keys even though police forces everywhere suggest using them as a weapon against a potential attacker?

 

[Socrates]

Quote:
But then, I spend more time in the martial arts studio than the firing range.
I'm pushing 18 years of martial arts experience too, but I know I can't dodge a bullet and I don't trust my hands to disengage a weapon that is being held by an aggressive opponent.

I DO know that I can momentarily block a first attack, then pull my pistol very quickly to fire.

Which is very similar to what officers are taught. #1, don't die. #2, stop the threat.

Look, this wasn't a no-knock supposed drug raid for a half ounce of pot with a dead family to clean up due to a botched informant address.

This is a crazy suicidal lady who tried to kill a cop with a 9-18" long aluminum shiv, and got shot for it.

Plus 10.

The police are trying to stop this lady from killing herself. They had to act, and act very quickly. One stab of the needle into her juggler, and she's dead.
In trying to do so, they are now suddenly attacked. Was it handled wisely? Probably not. Monday morning quarterbacking, if the person is stabbing themselves in the neck, they are 5150, and, they need to be stopped, now!
Best way to do that is NOT by shooting them, unless it's with a Tazer. I think that was the right play from the start...

Also, usually suicidal actions are caused by drug abuse. I don't think a toxin screen has been done yet. They can say what they want, but, it really sounds like someone out of their minds, blacked out, on cocaine.

 

[jimpeel]

A good research paper on LEO psychological screening data, etc.

http://www.psycheval.com/Integrity Project Final Report 12-19-04.pdf

The first paragraph of the paper:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
When enforcing society’s laws, police officers are entrusted and endowed with special powers that can have profound influence on its citizenry. Officers can, and occasionally do, abuse their authority, violate rules and laws, set a poor example for others, and exploit their position for personal gain. It is critical, therefore, that police officer integrity problems are minimized through whatever means possible, including early identification
and prevention. During the National Symposium on Police Integrity held in 1996, sponsored by the Office of Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) and the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), a number of initiatives were proposed to foster and maximize integrity in the police culture. These included, among other things, examining entry-level screening and hiring processes to ascertain reliable predictors of integrity related behavior, and studying the relationship between psychological screening data and future integrity-related problems to identify reliable predictors.

 

[LanceOregon]

This case does indeed again raise the question of police having adequate training to properly recognize a situation and thus be able to handle it better.

If the woman was having an epileptic attack, then that certainly does not warrant a shooting. Do the officers know how to properly recognized if a person is having a seizure? Perhaps she was just inadvertently stabbing herself as part of the seizure?

And even if she was trying to commit suicide, how is shooting a suicidal person making the situation any better??

The local newspaper has much more detailed and complete information about this incident in their report, which you can read all about here at this link:

http://thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080714/NEWS01/807140302/1002

Two officers attempted to take the woman into custody. When they saw her drawing what they thought was a weapon, one of the officers shot her with a Taser. However, the other officer responded by firing his service pistol at her, hitting her twice in her torso.

If the woman was having a brain seizure, then I'm not sure how effective a Taser might be. For the electrical signals coming from her brain and going to her body parts would have already been messed up badly.

This will most likely bring a lawsuit, in my opinion. Police need to be less confrontational and aggressive in situations like this. The woman was alone in her minivan, and did not pose any threat to anyone.

On another note, it appears that this woman may well of been an illegal immigrant from Mexico. So if our borders were properly enforced, this whole incident most likely would of never taken place. Or at least have happened in Mexico.

.

 

[jimpeel]

The police are too often found to be not at fault when they make these life threatening snap decisions. Could any of us, and I do mean ANY of us, have gotten this same result from a grand jury if we were to replicate this deed?

Wednesday March 4, 1998
NO CHARGES IN CANDY BAR SHOOTING

NEW YORK _ A grand jury has decided not to file charges against a white U.S marshal on a drug stakeout who shot a black New York City teenager who was carrying a silver-wrapped Three Musketeers candy bar.

Queens District Attorney Richard Brown says William Cannon and his partner did nothing criminal when they mistook the candy bar for a semi- automatic pistol and shot high school student Andre Burgess in the leg.

Seventeen-year-old Burgess was on his way to a friend's house after stopping at a convenience store to buy two candy bars when he approached Cannon's unmarked car shortly after 7 p.m.

The federal marshals thought the foil-wrapped food was a weapon, so the partners jumped out of the car, identified themselves as police officers and yelled to the Springfield Gardens teenager to put up his hands.

According to Brown, Burgess turned to agents with the candy bar in his hand and Cannon shot him in the left thigh.

So here this kid is walking down the street when he hears people yelling for someone to "put up your hands". Not doing anything wrong himself, he turns to see who the police are yelling at and gets shot for not having the good sense to realize that the police, out of his view and behind him, are yelling at him.

So whenever the cops start yelling for someone to "put up your hands" everyone in the vicinity should throw their hands in the air just in case they are shouting at them.

 

[Conn. Trooper]

At 3:45 a.m. in the dark, this woman is stabbing herself with a 12-18" long metal spike/hook/whatever. Urgency is key here because you dont have time to wait until she stabs herself fatally, or starts the van and drives off, or any one of a million other possible scenarios. You attempt to take her out of the van (always a good idea to get people that are not in their right mind away from a 2000 pound weapon), attempt to take away the large metal spike/hook. She comes at you with it and the Taser is evidently not working (contrary to popular belief they dont work on everyone), and you shoot her.

Where is the problem? Its not as if there were not other options tried before resorting to firearms. The urgency of the situation pretty much dictated that you dont have time to stand around and call a psychiatrist or give her a few Prozac or try and talk her out of the van etc.

I especially like the mall ninja's who think its oh so easy to take sharp and pointy objects away from people that dont want to give them up. Its not like on TV and the movies, trying to take sharp things away from people is a good way to get hurt or killed. Try it sometime, go get a rubber training knife, coat the edges in chalk and try and take it away from someone. Good luck with that. I am sure some Bruce Lee/Chuch Norris type will tell me that its simple to take sharp pointy things away from people, and they could do it with eyes closed and only one free hand. I cant, and most cops are not Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee.

I tried taking a very small folding Schrade knife away from a 13 year old once. I thought to myself " I can just grab it and use an arm bar and get that knife away from him, no sweat. Plus, I have frisk resistor gloves on, I wont get cut." 50+ stitches later I know better.

Cops have to play the hand they are dealt, they didnt choose this scenario. If they stood at the window talking while she offed herself the " They shoulda dones" would be worse.