Cops shoot woman wielding a crochet hook redeux

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jimpeel

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There was a time when the cops would have simply pulled their batons and beat the woman to the ground and then cuffed and arrested her. Nowdays the cops go to the firearm as the first, instead of the last, option.

I didn't say this at the outset of the previous attempt to post this as I know the "JBT" on the one side, and the "You're just LEO bashing" types on the other, are just waiting for this type of post to castigate the poster. I am not anti-LEO; but I do recognize the fact that the firearm has become the first line of defense and that is scary from a citizen's standpoint.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,381783,00.html

Cops Kill Woman Who Lunged at Officers With Crochet Hook
Monday, July 14, 2008

SALINAS, Calif. — A disoriented woman holed up in a minivan and repeatedly stabbing herself in the neck was shot to death by local police officers who thought the distraught woman was lunging at them with a knife or pick ax.

But the 45-year-old Maria Irma De La Torre had only a metal crochet hook in her hand, the Salinas Californian reported Monday.

Officers responding to a "woman acting strangely call" at 3:45 a.m. Sunday saw the woman "stabbing herself in the neck with a small implement."

As officers tried to get her out of the minivan, she allegedly lunged at them with what was thought to be a knife or a pick ax and the officers fired. Cmdr. Kelly McMillin says the officers thought their lives were in danger. She was shot twice in the torso, and died later at a local hospital.

"It's a wrongful death," Diana Hernandez, De La Torre's niece, told the Californian. She added that De La Torre suffered from epileptic seizures but had no history of violence or hurting herself during seizures. She was taking medication to control the seizures, Hernandez said.

Click here for more on this story from the Salinas Californian.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Here's what I have a problem with:

I have a problem with people attacking police officers.

I know that we can say, in hindsight, that this was probably excessive force, and it was probably avoidable, and it didn't make much sense to shoot a person who was attempting suicide.

But, here's a cop. He's a working class dude, meager income, rough work conditions. Throughout his job, he's told that he could be killed by anyone at any time. He lives with this fear every day. One day, he receives orders to go check out this crazy lady in a van. She's clearly unstable, and she lunges at him with a sharp metal object! He draws his weapon and he fires on an assailant with a weapon.

Now, we're going to to say that he was in the wrong? He was not justified in taking what he thought at the time were reasonable measures to protect himself? We're going to second-guess this guy?

Not me. I'm glad the cop is ok, I hope the rest of his career is boring and uneventful, and I hope his retirement is long and enjoyable.
 
When attacks with a deadly weapon, foot long metal spikes counting as such, the LEO is under no requirement to wrestle with or engage in armed melee combat.

The LEO could have been "a hero" and tried to wrestle away the needle. Perhaps then we could have read about the cop killed by a sewing needle jabbed into his caratoid artery.
 
I wasn't there and can only say that either the officers were inexperienced and poorly trained or the woman's actions appeared to be a much more serious threat at the time than we can determine by reading a short news article.

"It's a wrongful death," Diana Hernandez, De La Torre's niece
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Or wheres our lawsuit money.
 
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Here’s what I have a problem with:

If a CCW holder had shot her under the same circumstances that person would be crucified by the press and the courts.
 
But, here's a cop. He's a working class dude, meager income, rough work conditions. Throughout his job, he's told that he could be killed by anyone at any time. He lives with this fear every day. One day, he receives orders to go check out this crazy lady in a van. She's clearly unstable, and she lunges at him with a sharp metal object! He draws his weapon and he fires on an assailant with a weapon.

Now, we're going to to say that he was in the wrong? He was not justified in taking what he thought at the time were reasonable measures to protect himself? We're going to second-guess this guy?

Not me. I'm glad the cop is ok, I hope the rest of his career is boring and uneventful, and I hope his retirement is long and enjoyable.
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Well, part of the problem is the history of police forces denying applicants that score high on intelligence tests. Thinking quickly and being able to diffuse a situation without escalation would be something higher intelligence would help do.

Of course, there is also the corollary of police departments being on the wrong side of the RKBA issue.. coincidence?
 
"Thinking quickly and being able to diffuse a situation without escalation would be something higher intelligence would help do."

Do you think someone who knows the difference between "diffuse" and "defuse" would be intelligent enough to be a cop?

Tim
 
There was a time when the cops would have simply pulled their batons and beat the woman to the ground and then cuffed and arrested her. Nowdays the cops go to the firearm as the first, instead of the last, option.
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Spoken like someone who have never been on the job or undergone the training.

And for your repeated claims that you "aren't trying to get a cop-bashing thread going", it's pretty clear from your two threads on this one incident that you WANT a cop-bashing thread to take off...you just don't want to be seen as the guy who started the bashing.
 
Oh no, I made a grammatical mistake!! I'm so ashamed! My entire argument must be ignored due to the mistaken insertion of a homophone that in no way changed the meaning of what I was saying.
 
Well, part of the problem is the history of police forces denying applicants that score high on intelligence tests. Thinking quickly and being able to diffuse a situation without escalation would be something higher intelligence would help do.

Of course, there is also the corollary of police departments being on the wrong side of the RKBA issue.. coincidence?
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Citations, please.

I know several police officers, both "old school" close to retirement and "new blood" that are 5-10 years into their careers, none of which I would even consider to be of "average" intelligence. I'd guess all their IQ's run between 115 and 140... very respectable numbers. Varying higher education degrees from AA to MA.

Also, beat cops tend to be very pro-RKBA. Most of them find it disheartening to walk in to a situation where a lone defender was mauled/raped/strangled/robbed/killed by an attacker, only to arrive 10 minutes after the fact and have no other job than to pick up the garbage.

This particular story... I say let the suicidal idiot play suicide-by-cop. She probably didn't have the courage to stab deep enough with the needle, saw the cops come and decided a couple of gunshots would be quicker and easier.

"Don't bring a knife to a gun fight... or a knitting needle."

Seriously... it's just as dangerous as a piece of rebar on a construction site or a railroad spike. Loonies that attack anybody indiscriminately earn the bullets they attract.
 
Well, part of the problem is the history of police forces denying applicants that score high on intelligence tests...

Of course, there is also the corollary of police departments being on the wrong side of the RKBA issue..
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That's two statements in one post that have no merit whatsoever. Leaving the obvious silliness of the first statement aside, the second one can be addressed by pointing out that police agencies, as extensions of the federal, state or local executive branch, do not enact policies, issue policy statements, or take sides on political issues. And even if a department could and did, that would no way reflect on the beliefs of the individual police officers, many of whom are among the most pro-gun people you'll ever meet.

Of course being bashed by the gun crazies all the time could certainly to cause even the most pro-gun officer (or civilian) to reconsider their support of gun rights...at least for the more rabid anti-police, anti-government types. So keep smack-mouthing the people that you should want to have on your side. It can only come back on you.
 
There is no way from the article anyone can say they cops did not try and defuse the situation, in fact I would say that they probably did try.

As officers tried to get her out of the minivan,
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or at least were trying to talk to her when she lunged.

SecDef, do you have any cites to back your statement about police departments hiring the applicants with the lower IQ or are you just making that up.
 
"My entire argument must be ignored due to the mistaken insertion of a homophone that in no way changed the meaning of what I was saying."

No, your argument will be ignored because it's absurd.

Tim
 
Now, we're going to to say that he was in the wrong? He was not justified in taking what he thought at the time were reasonable measures to protect himself? We're going to second-guess this guy? Not me. I'm glad the cop is ok, I hope the rest of his career is boring and uneventful, and I hope his retirement is long and enjoyable.
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I don't know if he was right or not, I wasn't there. But either way you gotta love the irony.
 
Citations, please.

I know several police officers, both "old school" close to retirement and "new blood" that are 5-10 years into their careers, none of which I would even consider to be of "average" intelligence. I'd guess all their IQ's run between 115 and 140... very respectable numbers. Varying higher education degrees from AA to MA.
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Sure.. There is this obvious ruling based on this situation.

Not saying there aren't smart cops out there. Just that they tend to be promoted off the beat.


I meant concealed carry, not RKBA.. my bad.
 
What about hand to hand combat training? Are the police even trained in such things anymore? Such training could have been used to easily disarm such an assailant with no deadly threat to the officer. Poor training combined with a combat mentality has evidently cost one person her life. The police could have simply backed off and assessed the situation a little better before reacting. The entire mode of training these days is simply wrong. Police are taught to meet violence with increased violence. They should be instructed in defuseing rather than escalating violence. Military type training has no place in a civilian occupation, and being a policeman is indeed a civilian job. They are dealing with people they are supposed to protect and serve, not kill. I respect law officers and understand the difficulty of their job, but they have learn to totally treat each person they encounter with respect and dignity. I think that would go a long way toward dialing down a tense situation. I believe it is possible to be polite and be ready to deal with any situation.
 
As officers tried to get her out of the minivan, she allegedly lunged at them with what was thought to be a knife or a pick ax and the officers fired. Cmdr. Kelly McMillin says the officers thought their lives were in danger. She was shot twice in the torso, and died later at a local hospital.
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Good shoot, assuming this is correct. Sad- but justified.
 
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