In response to Stevie Ray, I used to use Hoppe's (love the smell) but then moved to Shooter's Choice, which is my favorite bore cleaner if I want to take out the carbon fouling and some of the copper. My rifles shoot great if I clean them every now and then, with some of the rifles needing cleaning more often than others. But as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had one rifle that I thought might have a bit too much copper layered in the bore, so I got some Boretech Eliminator. I wasn't getting much copper out of that barrel with the Shooter's Choice, but the Boretech dripping out the end of that barrel was blue. I got a lot of copper out of what had appeared to be a relatively clean barrrel. That worked so well that I cleaned a couple of other rifles too. The super clean barrels of the Sako and the Ruger that has the Douglas barrel shot great before the Boretech and shot great after, but the 223 and the 260 that I had been putting a lot of rounds through recently actually shot a bit worse than I had been seeing months earlier. I didn't actually notice that until I saw a couple of old targets I had laying around in my workshop. The 223 didn't start shooting the nice small round groups again until I had run about 12 or 15 rounds through it. The 260 was similar, and apparently also needed a little copper laid down. Keep in mind that this isn't a rigorous scientific test, but is just me and what I think I observed. Anyway, now I have gone back to the Shooter's Choice (and Butch's Boreshine) when I want the powder fouling out but don't want to take all the copper out. If I want to shoot my best groups, it appears that my most effective approach is to clean the bore with Shooter's Choice or the equivalent and shoot a couple of fouling shots and let the barrel cool. Then I can do my best work - if I haven't had too much coffee. I put the Sako and the Douglas barrelled Ruger in the safe with clean barrels (with a little copper). The 223 stays close at hand, with dirty barrel, for pasture varmints. The 260 is clean right now, but as soon as the weather cools a bit I'll be pig hunting and the barrel will be dirty for 3 months or more. So what I'm saying is that I want a little copper in the bore, and if I use Hoppe's or one of the other similar bore cleaners, I do believe that I will have some copper in the bore because those cleaners won't take it all out. I used to think that was bad, but now I think that it's good (to a point).