Copper removal no longer recommended?
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jwrowland77
New member
I guess I was just raised on old school train of thought an it's the same way I do it now.
After a shooting session, I run a brush dipped in Hoppes #9 once or twice down the barrel, then I run oil patches down it until they come out clean then I run a single dry patch down the barrel to get any excess oil out. I've never run into an issue with my first shot out of a cold barrel on opening weekend of deer season. Always dead on.
After a shooting session, I run a brush dipped in Hoppes #9 once or twice down the barrel, then I run oil patches down it until they come out clean then I run a single dry patch down the barrel to get any excess oil out. I've never run into an issue with my first shot out of a cold barrel on opening weekend of deer season. Always dead on.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Me either. I've used #9 Copper Solvent on my FAL since the 80s when I first bought it, every time, til the patches are no longer green. It's still an incredibly accurate FAL.
Seems like I heard a similar story from Slick 50.........
603Country
New member
In response to Stevie Ray, I used to use Hoppe's (love the smell) but then moved to Shooter's Choice, which is my favorite bore cleaner if I want to take out the carbon fouling and some of the copper. My rifles shoot great if I clean them every now and then, with some of the rifles needing cleaning more often than others. But as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had one rifle that I thought might have a bit too much copper layered in the bore, so I got some Boretech Eliminator. I wasn't getting much copper out of that barrel with the Shooter's Choice, but the Boretech dripping out the end of that barrel was blue. I got a lot of copper out of what had appeared to be a relatively clean barrrel. That worked so well that I cleaned a couple of other rifles too. The super clean barrels of the Sako and the Ruger that has the Douglas barrel shot great before the Boretech and shot great after, but the 223 and the 260 that I had been putting a lot of rounds through recently actually shot a bit worse than I had been seeing months earlier. I didn't actually notice that until I saw a couple of old targets I had laying around in my workshop. The 223 didn't start shooting the nice small round groups again until I had run about 12 or 15 rounds through it. The 260 was similar, and apparently also needed a little copper laid down. Keep in mind that this isn't a rigorous scientific test, but is just me and what I think I observed. Anyway, now I have gone back to the Shooter's Choice (and Butch's Boreshine) when I want the powder fouling out but don't want to take all the copper out. If I want to shoot my best groups, it appears that my most effective approach is to clean the bore with Shooter's Choice or the equivalent and shoot a couple of fouling shots and let the barrel cool. Then I can do my best work - if I haven't had too much coffee. I put the Sako and the Douglas barrelled Ruger in the safe with clean barrels (with a little copper). The 223 stays close at hand, with dirty barrel, for pasture varmints. The 260 is clean right now, but as soon as the weather cools a bit I'll be pig hunting and the barrel will be dirty for 3 months or more. So what I'm saying is that I want a little copper in the bore, and if I use Hoppe's or one of the other similar bore cleaners, I do believe that I will have some copper in the bore because those cleaners won't take it all out. I used to think that was bad, but now I think that it's good (to a point).
.300 Weatherby Mag
New member
Both of my 22-250s absolutely go to crap after about 40-60 rounds each... Once I clean the copper out both of them return to the sort of accuracy I expect at 100 and beyond... My .300 Weatherby's accuracy absolutely drops off a cliff if you keep shooting it after 20 rounds... Lower velocity rounds can go hundreds of rounds before any degradation of accuracy due to copper buildup... I take it on a case by case basis...
Stevie-Ray
New member
Must be plain ol #9 if you love the smell. I use Hoppe's #9 Bench Rest Copper Solvent, which stinks to high Heaven. So does Shooter's Choice, AFAIC. But, I've come to the conclusion that there are better copper removers out there. After I move and get to shooting more, I'm going to try some of them out, though I've had pretty good luck with Hoppe's BRCS.
I grew up using Hoppe's #9 on all my guns, cleaning regularly. Only lately have I ventured into some of the other products (Butch's Bore Shine and BoreTech Eliminator). BTW, I started mixing my Hoppe's 50/50 with Kroil Oil some years ago. I did this on a recommendation and can't comment on any great improvement but Kroil seems to have a big following...
Back to copper fouling. I'm intrigued about this because I just bought a new Weatherby Fibermark with SS barrel (my first NEW rifle in many years) and I wanted to follow Weatherby's barrel break-in procedure closely. Weatherby recommends a 40 round break-in; 10 rounds one at a time and then 10 sets of 3. After each 1 or 3 shots, allow the barrel to cool and throughly clean.
I decided to clean the barrel before starting and found lots of copper; very surprised!! Clearly, Weatherby must have done considerably firing of this gun prior to selling it. Perhaps, Weatherby has already broken in my barrel...???
Anyway, it's my understanding that a new barrel has tiny imperfections (unless you get one that had special polishing). The act of passing copper-clad bullets down the barrel at very high temperatures and pressures, has the effect of working out those imperfections. But apparently Weatherby feels you need to keep copper fouling to a minimum during the break-in process. I don't know what Weatherby's position is on copper cleaning after the break-in.
I wonder if the propensity for a barrel to do better or worse when cleaned of all copper may be a function of whether the barrel was broken in properly at the beginning.
Back to copper fouling. I'm intrigued about this because I just bought a new Weatherby Fibermark with SS barrel (my first NEW rifle in many years) and I wanted to follow Weatherby's barrel break-in procedure closely. Weatherby recommends a 40 round break-in; 10 rounds one at a time and then 10 sets of 3. After each 1 or 3 shots, allow the barrel to cool and throughly clean.
I decided to clean the barrel before starting and found lots of copper; very surprised!! Clearly, Weatherby must have done considerably firing of this gun prior to selling it. Perhaps, Weatherby has already broken in my barrel...???
Anyway, it's my understanding that a new barrel has tiny imperfections (unless you get one that had special polishing). The act of passing copper-clad bullets down the barrel at very high temperatures and pressures, has the effect of working out those imperfections. But apparently Weatherby feels you need to keep copper fouling to a minimum during the break-in process. I don't know what Weatherby's position is on copper cleaning after the break-in.
I wonder if the propensity for a barrel to do better or worse when cleaned of all copper may be a function of whether the barrel was broken in properly at the beginning.
4runnerman
New member
I clean the B jesus out of my rifle before a match. I get 5 fouling shots or sightin shots ( what ever you want to call them ). I find that by the 3 or 4th shot accuracy is at it's peak. After around 100 rounds or so i find accuracy is falling off and it's time to clean again. I think this issue is relivent to used or half worn out barrels and cleaning intervals
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Weatherby Proof tested the barrel, and this is where the factory copper likely came form. Just a little copper can raise a lot of green. Maybe having the barrel lapped would be the answer, and then using copper fouling as "bondo" to fill in the rough spots could be eliminated.
Weatherby must have proof-tested the heck out of my rifle. It took exactly 15 cycles of BoreTech Eliminator (at least 1 hour apart and one overnight) to get a clean patch.
This reinforces my idea that a new barrel has much more potential to "copper up" than a well-used barrel...
Does that make sense?
This reinforces my idea that a new barrel has much more potential to "copper up" than a well-used barrel...
Does that make sense?
Sure.
A new barrel will have minuscule tooling/machining marks in the chamber and barrel. Less in quality barrels that are hand-lapped.
The first bullets will burnish out these imperfections (so I'm told)...
Hence the "one shot, one clean" yada yada theory of break-in.
But break-in (or not) is a whole 'nother subject...
Any that aren't removed, get filled by the copper and are best left alone...so the point of the show and my original post.
Good summary. I think we agree that barrel break-in (whether one round or 30) accumulates more copper than than a hand-lapped or well-broken-in barrel. So the question that will probably never be answered is:
Is it better to remove the copper associated with barrel break-in and subsequently let the barrel "copper-up" to its point of copper equilibrium, or, is it better to just let the break-in copper start the process of reaching that copper equilibrium.
It kind of makes sense to me to let the break-in simulate a hand-lapping (which would not deposit any copper), clean out the break-in copper, and then go from there.
Is it better to remove the copper associated with barrel break-in and subsequently let the barrel "copper-up" to its point of copper equilibrium, or, is it better to just let the break-in copper start the process of reaching that copper equilibrium.
It kind of makes sense to me to let the break-in simulate a hand-lapping (which would not deposit any copper), clean out the break-in copper, and then go from there.
603Country
New member
For what it's worth, I have today's info on one rifle, my Ruger 223. I've been shooting it now for a few weeks and not intentionally not cleaning it. The shooting is varmint removal, so it was only about 25 rounds till today. I decided to shoot a bit this afternoon and put a few more rounds through it and the groups opened up. The rifle has on occasion shot 1/2 inch groups, but I can't do my part every time, so let's call an average group about 3/4 of an inch. After about 30 rounds total, which is the 25 I mentioned plus the 5 this afternoon, the groups opened up noticeably. I cleaned it, getting mostly carbon fouling and not much copper, and after it cooled we were right back on target with decent groups. I had expected to see more sign of copper on the patches, but all I got was plenty of powder fouling and a little copper. There's no message in this note, other than I don't think I can run a lot of rounds through this particular rifle without losing accuracy at around 30 shots or so.
Ideal Tool
Moderator
Lots of opinions on this post! But as for leaving copper in bore..be aware that copper fouling combined with humidity can set up an electrolitic reaction in the bore causing rust & pitting.
TheSILENTtype
New member
Not a concern for SF. A very real issue for a firearm owner.
Sometimes comparing SF, MILSPEC and Civillian PRIORITIES is alot like comparing red apples, green apples and rotten apples.
On one side, you have a great consideration for long lasting durability, function, accuracy, value etc. and on the other you have relatively short term use, minimal long term expectency and a primary focus on immediate accuracy.
At lot of our behaviors are advertizing induced. Take the diamond engagement ring as an example. People accept the custom when it is just a creation of DeBeers to ensure a constant revenue stream. Just think about the other advertizing induced behaviors that you follow, you can think of them if you try.
I have seen the zero change and foul back with match 308 barrels that had a significant number of rounds though them, about 3000-4000. One match it took about five shots before the barrel settled down.
I shot a very new Krieger barrel at 600 yards, it had been cleaned before first shot, I could not tell much of a difference. But, I have seen settling on barrels that were cleaned after 300 rapid fire and before I started my 600 yard string. I have also seen settling going from ball powder at 300 to stick at 600 yards.
One F Class national champ I know, she said would never clean her barrel because it shoots more accurately fouled. Unfortunately Hubby believes in a clean rifle, so he will sneak off and clean the thing. “Honey, Are you cleaning my barrel again?”
A number of good rimfire shooters only clean when their group size increase. That can be thousands of rounds.
I do believe that at some point you will need to mechanically clean the impacted organic crud in the throat, chemical cleaners won’t get that out. You can clean on a schedule, or you can clean when you notice a group increase.
I have seen the zero change and foul back with match 308 barrels that had a significant number of rounds though them, about 3000-4000. One match it took about five shots before the barrel settled down.
I shot a very new Krieger barrel at 600 yards, it had been cleaned before first shot, I could not tell much of a difference. But, I have seen settling on barrels that were cleaned after 300 rapid fire and before I started my 600 yard string. I have also seen settling going from ball powder at 300 to stick at 600 yards.
One F Class national champ I know, she said would never clean her barrel because it shoots more accurately fouled. Unfortunately Hubby believes in a clean rifle, so he will sneak off and clean the thing. “Honey, Are you cleaning my barrel again?”
A number of good rimfire shooters only clean when their group size increase. That can be thousands of rounds.
I do believe that at some point you will need to mechanically clean the impacted organic crud in the throat, chemical cleaners won’t get that out. You can clean on a schedule, or you can clean when you notice a group increase.
I admit to ruining a Remington 700, .22-250 barrel by not cleaning it after shooting. It was in a closet next to the sewer vent stack for several months after the summer varmint season. That was in the mid-sixties.
The bore was so rusted, I could barely see through it and had to soak it with solvent and rust remover for days before a rod could get through it. After it was finally cleaned, the bore was deeply pitted and I was sick about it. However, it still shot very well.
I normally clean my centerfire barrels with Shooters Choice and/or Butch's Bore Shine without using a brush, unless the last of several patches isn't fairly clean and smooth. I've always believed in leaving a trace amount of gilding metal.
There's a big difference between having a smooth layer of gilding metal in the barrel and having serious copper fouling to the point that the bore is rough and causing pressures to rise and accuracy to drop off. I tried Barnes bullets in my Stainless 700, .270 Win and got serious fouling that came out hard. After switching to Hornady GMX (gilding metal), it's not had a problem.
Regarding .22LRs: Bores don't normally require cleaning for protection, since every .22LR bullet is lubed with wax, which protects bores as well or better than most protectants. I've never seen a dirty .22LR bore that was rusted!!! However, it's possible to have rust in one if cleaned with solvent, but not had a protectant applied. I use Break-Free for that purpose in all my guns.
(As an aside, the instructions for installing a folding cover on my pickup said to use Break-Free on holes drilled in the body for the latch rivet holes, saying it was the only product that would prevent rust.)
The bore was so rusted, I could barely see through it and had to soak it with solvent and rust remover for days before a rod could get through it. After it was finally cleaned, the bore was deeply pitted and I was sick about it. However, it still shot very well.
I normally clean my centerfire barrels with Shooters Choice and/or Butch's Bore Shine without using a brush, unless the last of several patches isn't fairly clean and smooth. I've always believed in leaving a trace amount of gilding metal.
There's a big difference between having a smooth layer of gilding metal in the barrel and having serious copper fouling to the point that the bore is rough and causing pressures to rise and accuracy to drop off. I tried Barnes bullets in my Stainless 700, .270 Win and got serious fouling that came out hard. After switching to Hornady GMX (gilding metal), it's not had a problem.
Regarding .22LRs: Bores don't normally require cleaning for protection, since every .22LR bullet is lubed with wax, which protects bores as well or better than most protectants. I've never seen a dirty .22LR bore that was rusted!!! However, it's possible to have rust in one if cleaned with solvent, but not had a protectant applied. I use Break-Free for that purpose in all my guns.
(As an aside, the instructions for installing a folding cover on my pickup said to use Break-Free on holes drilled in the body for the latch rivet holes, saying it was the only product that would prevent rust.)