Copper removal no longer recommended?

There it is then. I'm going to give it a rest. However... what's to be done about getting the other stuff out? I was also wondering what about burned oil in the bore... I generally try to remove any preserving oil from the bore and especially the chamber but I'm thinking (not "knowing") that there is oil burning in there... let it "season"?

@stubbicatt—Are you saying the copper is effecting the barrel steel on a molecular level? So swapping electrons?

-SS-
 
Are you saying the copper is effecting the barrel steel on a molecular level? So swapping electrons?
Click to expand...

I don't actually know the mechanism or even if this actually happens, but it seems maybe 10- 15 years ago I read something to this effect in one of those Precision Shooter magazines or the like. I wish I remembered it better.
 
The only thing I do to my Rifles is run a oiled patch down the tube & put it up.
Come time to shoot, moons later I run dry patch to get oil out & start shooting JMO ; )
Y/D
 
I don't know for sure that removing or leaving the copper wash is better. I do know that some folks equate copper wash with the old cupro-nickel fouling that was created by the cupro-nickel bullet jackets of the old Krag and early Springfield days. That material did build up, in chunks that could be easily seen in the barrel. It was that fouling that Hoppe's No. 9 was originally formulated to remove, by attacking and dissolving the copper in the cupro-nickel alloy.

But the gilding metal (not pure copper, it is 5% zinc) in modern bullet jackets leaves only a thin wash, not big lumps of metal, and it takes a lot of firing for it to build up at all, let alone enough to affect accuracy.

When I have said this before, the responses were uniformly in favor of scrubbing the heck out of a barrel, even using steel wool or emery cloth to remove that horrible copper fouling. I am glad to see someone who seems to agree that it does not always need to be removed and that excessive cleaning may do more harm than copper wash.

Jim
 
Interesting this came up. My 788 223 had quite a build up of copper when I got it. I used a copper remover, and the point of impact changed by inches. I was convinced it needed to be removed. I get .5" groups with it.
 
I agree with Art Eatman - cleaning the copper out pretty regularly seems to retain accuracy.

While it may depend upon the specific rifle, I have three that lose accuracy by about 25 to 40% after about 300 - 400 rounds and recover their original accuracy after I get the copper out of the barrels and shoot about 4 to5 fouling rounds.

I've shot more than 2500 rounds through each of them (more than 4000 rounds through one of them) and as long as I clean out the copper pretty regularly, they still shoot just as well today as they did when I first bought them.
 
My experience mirrors many others in this thread as well. I used Hoppe's #9 religously over the years and never nothing else. My Featherweight in .270 WSM was a tack driver when I got it but after a couple of hundred rounds, really started opening up on the groups to around 2-3" which caused me all kiinds of fits to try to figure out. I finally ordered some Butch's Bore Shine and gave the barrel a thorough cleaning up to the point that only faint traces of blue/green coloring was on the clean patch. Voila! Groups shrank back down to sub MOA with it once again. I did the same to my dad's 742 that although was never a sub MOA gun to begin with, it had been capable of 1.5" groups in the past and was now easily shooting 4-5" groups. After cleaning it like my Featherweight, the groups shrank back down as well.

I believe every gun is different and you need to know what that particular one likes in terms of barrel cleanliness just like you do with ammo. For me, it seems some copper fouling is good but too much is a bad thing. Since I only did this last year and haven't shot the guns since hunting season, I haven't truly decided on a proper regime for cleaning. I may use Butch's all the time but I'm also considering going back to Hoppe's until groups start opeing up again simply because of the cost factor and ease of getting Hoppe's locally. At least now I know the root cause and now it's just a point of seeing how many rounds can be fired before accuracy starts falling off again. We'll see.
 
Okay. Sold. I'm going to try this on my 7.62x39. So what is the best way to remove carbon and not disturb copper too much? Should we just push some oil patches through to swab it out? Brush it? Bore Snake/oil?
-SS-
 
The Special Forces instructor on the show used a jag (on a one-piece vinyl coated Dewey rod)...5 wet patches, 10 dry patches...then repeat.

Interestingly enough, M-Pro 7, which is the bore cleaner they use- recommends brass brushes...and not patches.

Just goes to show you, there never has been, and never will be, a hard and fast consensus on barrel cleaning, or barrel break-in....
 
I know the copper remover will destroy a bronze brush If you don't get the stuff off. My concern is that it maybe hard on the bore.
 
My two cents: Every rifle is different. One of mine gets off group size at around 100 rounds. Others range from 300 to 500 rounds. Cleaning the copper brings them back after a few "fouling shots." My main hunting rifle just doesn't get cleaned of copper, because it doesn't get shot that much.

Caution: don't leave the copper solvent overnight in the barrel. It is ammonia based and will eat away at the steel. I wouldn't leave it in the bore more than 30 minutes. Your results may vary.
 
I guess Im an Odd Ball, I clean my Rifle Barrels every time I shoot, I dont care it I only shoot once. When I get home, I scrub the Bore with a Bore Brush, and some Shooters Choice, the Push Patches through the bore until they come out clean. I cannot stand pulling the bolt out of a Rifle, looking down the bore and seeing fowling.
 
I never put away a centerfire away w/o cleaning and oiling. After one shot the barrel is very dry bar steel.
 
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Which raises another question...
CM barrels, what is the likelihood of corrosion in the barrel if it is not cleaned (powder & carbon) after shooting and oiled?
Obviously less likely with a SS barrel, but still a concern?
 
tobnpr, it's a humidity and length of time thing. It won't matter in a dry climate and if more shooting is to be done in a day or two. But with high humidity and a week or three of not having cleaned the rifle, bad stuff can begin.

Most of my shooting has been load testing and sight-in. If I shoot no more than ten to twenty rounds in a session, I spray WD40 on a patch and run it through the bore a few times; maybe do it with two patches, "depending". I then spray RemOil on a patch and run it through the bore. In almost fifty years of this sort of pattern, I've yet to encounter any problem for reliability in group sizes. (Other than the one-time copper buildup I mentioned earlier.)
 
it's a humidity and length of time thing. It won't matter in a dry climate and if more shooting is to be done in a day or two. But with high humidity and a week or three of not having cleaned the rifle, bad stuff can begin.
Click to expand...

I have seen nice guns get ruined by rust due to humidity. Where I live in Michigan (less than a half mile from lake Michigan) there is plenty of it, so I need to keep my guns oiled.
 
My primary hunting rifle is a Interarms .280 remington. Accuracy started to go south and I couldn't figure out why. After removing the copper fouling from the barrel I shot a ten shot group that measured 1.362 at 100 yards. I ran a patch through it a month or so ago and there is evidence of copper build up after 60 rounds. No decrease in accuracy so I'm gonna leave it alone.
 
My take on it is this. Every gun is differnt. Ive got a 257 wby that groups will open up after 10 rounds from one inch to about double that by the 12th round. I also have an old 6mm rem classic that i dont think ive done anything but run a wet and dry patch through at the end of the season that still shoots 3/4s of an inch 5 shot groups. My ar10 easily goes a 1000 rounds between cleaning the copper out and would proably go alot more then that before it opened to over moa. One thing i will never do is clean a gun before i take it hunting. I allways go with a fouled bore. Like a few other posters ive seen just to many instances where poa changes drasticaly with a clean bore.
 
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