Controlling a suspect

B

BillCA

New member
This may have been covered under a different thread, but I didn't find such in my searches. So here's the question.

How much training have you devoted to controlling a suspect/threat if he appears to capitulate?

For example: A bump in the night wakes you and you find an intruder in your den/living/family room and when challenged, he puts up his hands. No you have him "covered" what happens next?

What do you say to challenge him? Freeze!? Stop!? Don't Move!? or do you start with ordering him to the ground?

If you cannot see if he is armed or not, does that change any of your tactics? If at some point you see a gun in his waistband, does that change your tactics?

What is your response when he starts apologizing with the "wrong house" excuse? Would your response be different if he started talking about the trouble you'd be in for "shooting an unarmed man"?

Lastly, presuming he is not obviously armed, what will you do if he simply stands there and fails to comply with any commands you give him. I.e. he doesn't make threatening moves but he refuses to do more than raise his hands shoulder high.

Feel free to answer any one or combinations of the questions above. The purpose is to see how many people have thought this through and can articulate supporting reasons for their tactics.
 
There are two applications here: Out in the street vs. In your home.

When out in the street, there's no need (or legal justification) for holding the suspect. If you can leave, you leave. If you can't leave (and imminent death or serious bodily injury is feared), you shoot until you can leave (threat is neutralized). Either way, after the threat is neutralized, RUN!

When in your home, after an area is secured, and the suspect is surrendering, the only training you really need to do is to learn to raise the intensity of your voice, while remaining calm and in control. Order the suspect to the ground, with his arms and legs spread out flat. Warn him/her that if he/she moves, you will "shoot and kill" them. (I like "shoot and kill." It rings home alot better than, "I will fire," or other such language.) Call the cops, and wait. Keep far enough distance that the suspect cannot reach you, but stay close enough that you can shoot accurately if you need to.

If there's a gun, it's a different situation. Order the gun tossed aside, slowly. Remind the suspect that if he moves, you will "shoot and kill" him. From there, if he does not immediately comply with your request to lose the weapon and lie down, shoot. Threat is present.
 
These kind of situations are among the worst case scenarios.

When you command a suspect to execute a movement, you largely give up initiative. You are telling them to move and thus you are putting yourself behind the reaction curve. Are they dropping the gun to comply or are they doing it in order to distract you from the other weapon they are drawing?


If you can see they have the ability and opportunity to put you in immediate jeopardy, "conversation" is probably not a good option. If they don't have such a weapon and there is not someone you have to get through them to protect, backing out to a secure area with a simple "if you move, I'll presume you are trying to kill me" or words to that effect is a good idea. If there is someone you want to protect and they are in your way, that may be a time to say "get on your face" and if they refuse, deal with it


Various jurisdictions have a presumption that someone in your home after dark is there to do you harm. That presumption may go out the window if you have the "get out" "up yours" conversation for a couple of minutes. Even if the subject didn't belong in your house, investigators might wonder why it took you so long to figure out he was a threat.

This kind of nightmare is why having everyone in one part of the house is a nice idea. That way, there's less need to go searching and have one these potential scenarios become actual situations.
 
Outside my home, I'm not exactly sure how I would handle the situation...too many variables really.

Inside my home....
With very few exceptions, there will be no commands spoken....I'll shoot him (or her).
I consider anyone who breaks into my home to be a threat to the lives of me and my family.
I keep my doors locked both day and night and I have a dog that alerts me to visitors....so there's simply no chance that someone will just walk in by mistake.
I'm not a cop and it's not my job to arrest criminals or return the mentally unstable back to the "psych ward".
I'm just a man who will defend his home.

And anyone who believes an intruder when they say "Opps, wrong house" is naive beyond comprehension.
 
Don't forget to let the cops know you are armed and holding a suspect at gunpoint as they will be on high alert and probably just as, if not more, exited than you.
 
This thread reminds me of "lights on your gun" ..lol

Myself, as gone to an academy class course (like the academy, but only a semester in highschool, for 2 hours a day), an explorer for a police department in Jersey, and in the process of starting my career as an officer, I would have to say that I would try my best to be in control of the situation, without having to resort to killing someone. Main goal, is if you can, get them to lay on their stomach, cross their legs, hands behind their back, and interlock their fingers! Doubt they'd actually do that but worth a shot

Like I said before, if I can avoid killing someone by all means, I will do so. Now if its a tight situation, and due to possible this/that/the other thing, I will not stall for one second in order to protect my own life.

Plus come on, who wants to deal with bullets in their walls, and blood/brains everywhere??
 
Fine with me if he bolts, as long as it's straight toward the nearest door. My goal is to protect my home. If he's gone, job done. I'll let the cops do their job (if he gets by the dogs). If I'm living aboard the boat, well, hope he can swim.
 
Main goal, is if you can, get them to lay on their stomach, cross their legs, hands behind their back, and interlock their fingers! Doubt they'd actually do that but worth a shot
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First let me say I'm not an LEO and never have been, nor have I had LEO training. I agree with every part of this statement with the exception of the hands behind the back. Human reaction time being what it is I want his hands straight out at his sides, 90 degrees from his body. I want him to have to reach to his waistband to get whatever may be there. That extra, gross motor movement is easy to detect and will slow down any chance at drawing on me he may have.

The above assumes of course that I catch him without a weapon already in his hand, which in NC would be problematic due to our schizo SD laws. You can legally use deadly force to prevent entry to your home. Someone's coming through your window, shoot him. You don't have to see that he's armed or intends you harm. You can assume he is based on the fact that he's breaking into an occupied dwelling.

Now, if I wake up and find Mr. Badguy already in my home I default back to the "reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury" requirement. Meaning a reasonable person would have to believe the individual standing in my living room had both the intent and the means to kill me or do great bodily harm. So in that case if I didn't see the weapon before I drew on him and ordered him onto his face I might have some 'splaining to do.

So assuming I have the legal right to use deadly force, and I draw my weapon and he complies, I personally want him proned out on his belly with his ankles crossed and his hands straight out at his sides palms facing up.

That being said, I see a weapon in his hand and he's in my living room at 2AM we ain't playin Simon Sez.
 
The cops only know what YOU tell them. I dont know why anybody would make it clear that you had a 5 minute standoff before you decided lethal force was necessary. That makes you look bad/guilty. When a perp is in YOUR home, you protect YOUR interests. Going to jail and being away from my family is not very high on that list, so I will say what needs to be said in order to protect my own well being. After all, dead men still cant talk.
 
Human reaction time being what it is I want his hands straight out at his sides, 90 degrees from his body. I want him to have to reach to his waistband to get whatever may be there. That extra, gross motor movement is easy to detect and will slow down any chance at drawing on me he may have.
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Bad bad BAD situation. How would it look to the police should they arrive to a criminal on the floor, on their stomach, with bullet holes in their back? You would be the one going to prison.

Best to not let it get to that point. As a prior poster already stated, it's not our job to retain the criminal so he can go to jail or a mental facility - it's our job to stop the threat. Valid threats = no jail/hospital at all.
 
I'd rather explain the bullet holes in his back to the police than the ones in my chest to the EMT's.....provided I live that long. But that's not the point here.

The point of of that part of my post was the tactical advantage of hands to the side vs. hands behind the back. If he does have a gun there that you don't know about you just told him to put his hands near/over it. Making it easier for him to draw on you. You put his hands out straight away from his body he'll have to move his hand to his weapon to grab it. I think he'd be more likely, all else being equal, to make a go if his hands were already near the weapon. I think he'd be less likely if his hands were away from his body. I think I'd be less likely to have to shoot him that way and therefore have to explain the bullet holes in the back thing. Of course my explanation would be the gun in the BG's hand......

If you read a little further into my post you'll see that I don't see having to control a suspect as a very likely event. Either you are justified in using deadly force or you're not. If I see a gun I issue no commands, only lead. If the BG runs off before any shots are fired, even better.
 
!!!

Well here in FL you don't have to talk to an intruder, just Shoot! It's called the "Castle Doctrine". I follow the law. :D
 
If a criminal breaks into my home, I want them to stop being a threat and get out of my home. Whether they do that by bolting and running out the door, or by taking further aggressive action and doing so on a stretcher or in a bodybag is up to them.

I am not going to "restrain" them. If they run, they're gone and the police can hunt for them. If they come towards me where I've barricaded, I shoot till they fall or flee.

That's how it should be for everyone.
 
If you do get the suspect on the ground, on his belly with his legs crossed, and he does happen to reach into his pockets of some sort, or you do see a gun or knife, if you shoot/kill the poor guy, then you're safe. He clearly had a deadly weapon on him. Now if he was unarmed..and laying on the ground like you commanded him to..hmmm have fun in court!!

We all have our different views, and how to deal with different situations. Clearly though, theres just too many situations, for all of us to mention/think about. I base my replies on my house, and my layout, also my area and how likley is someone to break through my door? I have bars on my downstairs window..does that say what kind of neighborhood I live in? (only of course until my wifey starts her career, and I start mine in the months to come and our salary sky rocket! then luxury townhomes here we come!:p)

Also, I happen to know pretty much all the cops in surrounding area of my home. pretty much all the officers, in my 4 surrounding cities. Only because I myself am becoming an officer, and I spend as much time with LEOs as I can, it's pretty much my life. So I know if I did have to shoot someone in my home, their report would hopfuly defend me (at least I hope so!!) so I myself feel more secure when shooting someone in my house. Again this doesn't apply to everyone so hey, each to their own, and lets just ALL hope that we never have to deal with something this horrible.
 
Three little words

Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo. If you are familiar with their meaning and train often to use them then do so. If you once learned them once but don't practice then you may have your A$$ handed to you! Very simple yet effective control tactics that don't involve alot of Carpet cleaning and Civil if not criminal lawsuits! (yes that was directed at the inherently homicidal Castle dwellers) If your common sense and Moral (there's that funny word again) integrity would keep you from shooting a fleeing or unarmed suspect then you can keep the intruder at gunpoint till authorities arrive or you can just kill them, Because after all, "they were in YOUR house"!
You would be amazed at the amount of $$ (that you don't have) a civil court judge can award the family of the confused drunk you just blew away in your haste and longing to "get your gun off"! You would also be suprised how public postings of your Urge to kill will show up as evidence against you!
 
Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo.
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If you intend to apply either control to an armed subject then you better be slicker than snail snot and faster than a speeding bullet.

I don't think anyone here is advocating shooting anyone just because they are in your house. In your house and a threat, yep, you bet. Remember that someone does not necessarily need to be armed to present a reasonable threat of death or bodily harm. If there exists such a threat, shoot to stop the threat. No psychology, no aikido.
 
I think the problem comes in if you have a gun and the BG either has no weapon or his response is to drop his weapon and put his hands up. Now what do you do? Technically, you could make a citizen's arrest (you have memorized "Miranda" haven't you?) or you can hold him for the police. But if he simply walks away, you have no authority to pursue him or to shoot him in the back. If you actually saw him commit a felony (e.g., he killed your wife), all bets are off and I doubt you will be concerned with the nicety of the law.

BTW, the advice by Samurai to run away after shooting someone is very BAD advice. If you fired in self-defense you are innocent; the presumption is that anyone who runs away is guilty. Myths to the contrary, the chances of being caught are very high and it might surprise you how many witnesses there will be to the shooting. So, unless there are extenuating circumstances, like fear of a lynch mob, do not RUN. Call the police if someone else has not done so, and from there on do what they tell you. Don't wise off, don't tell them your gun is too valuable to drop, don't try to explain while holding a gun. Answer their questions truthfully, but don't rant, babble or go into lengthy justifications. If they arrest and caution you (Miranda again), stop talking altogether except to say that you want an attorney.

If you carry a gun on the street, it is best to have an attorney on retainer and have memorized his phone number.

Jim
 
If you carry a gun on the street, it is best to have an attorney on retainer and have memorized his phone number.
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Now, that's not even realistic for most people. Most people don't have that kind of disposable income.
 
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