Controlled vs. Push Feed

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CRF is all about solving a specific problem, double feeding.

I'll admit that this is ONE advantage of CRF. It is also the one most talked about, but I disagree as to it's importance. CRF is about more reliable extraction and ejection. The fact that CRF allows a user to extract a round as soon as it is engaged by the extractor, and long before entering the chamber makes it much more unlikely to double feed. With a PF action the extractor cannot engage the rim unless the bolt is completely closed. If for some reason you need to get a round out of a PF, and cannot close the bolt the only other option is to push it out through the muzzle.

While true, I've used PF and CRF rifles for a long time and have never had this issue come up. If it ever does I'll want a CRF rifle.

CRF rifles are sold to hunters/shooters more interested in rugged dependability. A guy hunting out of a boat in muddy conditions, rain, snow, etc. will appreciate the CRF action. While they can be just as accurate, most rifle builders are looking for toughness, not squeezing every .1 MOA they can out of them.

Most target shooters are looking for every tiny bit of accuracy they can get. Most target rifles are never used under extreme weather conditions or in places where the rifle could get filthy, and still have to work. They can be kept clean. The emphasis is different.

Personally, I'd much prefer to use a CRF rifle, but as said earlier, most shooters will never be need to use the CRF rifles advantages.
 
"I have both currently in CZ/Ruger for controlled and Savage/Marlin for push and haven't really noticed much difference although on occasion I find it easier to recover my brass in the action w. the controlled feed when extracting."

I believe you've correctly stated the answer to your own question.
 
I'm 52 and have never had a double feed with a push feed, are any battle rifles CRF? Not talking about old 98's, Enfields, etc....
 
Battle rifles like the Mauser, 03 Springfield and Enfield were CRF to reduce the chance of a double feed jam.

When autoloaders came into use the chances of that are less as its "automatic".
 
Eldermike:
I shot bench rest for years and the difference between a good sporter and a winning bench rest gun is many 1000's of dollars
There have been rifles built on sloppy Winchester 70 actions having SAAMI spec chambers costing under $1000 that shoot accuracy test groups at long range half to three-fourths the size of record holding benchrest rifles' groups that cost 3 to 4 times that much. With unprepped full length sized cases and sometimes using aperture sights, too.
 
Savage 99, if you're unfamiliar with any machine you can make it fail. I would argue an automatic/semi automatic firearm has much more stress imposed on it's functioning than a repeater.
 
Guy,

It's the double feed problem for push feed bolt actions. Auto's are auto and don't push a round part way out of the magazine then draw back and push a second round out creating a jam.

Poosh feeds can and do! Jam! :D
 
Controlled round feed was a solution to double feeding; the rest is advertizing hype.

While I prefer the claw extractor in my bolt rifles, this is primarily due to the fact that I can open the bolt and roll an unfired round into my hand. Most of the various push feed actions have a spring loaded ejector and will toss the case out of reach.

It is a fact that push feed extractors are the most common extractor and that is for a number of reasons. Cost is one, compactness is another. Sometimes the geometry of the layout is such that a long claw extractor is undesirable. While I have never run feed reliability experiments, I believe either push feed or controlled feed will be equally reliable in a properly designed weapon system.

Given that most people’s understanding of gun design is based on articles written by gunwriters, and they are simply the mouthpieces of Corporate Advertizing Bureaus, it is no wonder that there is this fixation with extractor type; you have been taught to think of claw extractors as a quality attribute. However, a reliable and safe mechanism is more than a claw extractor and the reliability issues brought up by previous posters have more to do with the cheapened mechanisms that came on the market since WW2.

It is my opinion that the M98 action is the best overall action ever built. It is possible to build a stiffer action, one with a lighter bolt lift, one that is cheaper to build, and in deviations from the M98 the tradeoff is always less durability, less reliability. I consider the vaunted pre 64 inferior to the M98 as I have had broken one firing pin in a pre 64, and shooter protection from gas release was an afterthought. The M70 is a better target action, it is smoother and slick in operation, a M70 is a stiffer action, and the firing pin strike quicker. However that easier bolt lift results in less compression of the firing pin and will result in less energy to ignite a primer. As you notice, the further action design gets from WW1, expensive M98 features that enhance reliability or durability are dropped to cut manufacturing costs. Early actions, such as the pre 64 M70 tend to be more reliable than later actions because in the 1930’s they are still competing against those rugged military actions of WW1. Post WW2, manufacturer’s discover that the market place is not filled with experts on firearm design, purchasers don’t shoot enough to really discover long term durability or reliability, what the market wants is the “best cheapest” with the emphasis on cheapest. I think the M700 is a very good design considering price point. It is also a very safe design, (except for the original trigger mechanism) and its “three rings of steel” do provide a safety measure. Yes, more of the case head hangs out but given an extreme overpressure event that bolt face (ringed by the barrel) has prevented case head ruptures that would have happened in a cone breech.

This is an example of an overpressure 243, the case head expanded so much into the bolt face it could not be removed easily. If the bolt head had not been there it is likely the case head would have ruptured.



This push feed design did not shroud the bolt nose with the end of the barrel and the cartridge ruptured through the extractor cut.



Still nothing made by man cannot but unmade by man

Rem700300UltraMag3_zps68b79af9.jpg
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There are tradeoff’s with the M700 breeching system: it is easier to jam the action with dirt and you have a weak and easily broken extractor. That’s the tradeoff, better protection from catastrophic over pressure events but a relatively fragile extractor. You can’t have it all unfortunately.
Competitive shooters wanted more reliability and this “SAKO” extractor conversion on M700’s had its popularity. This is a Mo Defino conversion:








I do not recommend this as there is a known incident where an overpressure event blew the SAKO type extractor out into the shooter’s eye, blinding the shooter permanently
 
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Due to picture limitations per post, I am having to break this up into multiple posts:

Far more critical than claw extractors is cartridge orientation, timing, and release from the magazine. If this discussion were a discussion of M1911 magazines everyone would understand. There are all sorts of M1911 magazines with different shaped feed lips, rounded or flat followers, all of which attempting to orient the 45 ACP round, align it at the proper angle and just release it at the correct moment. When you get a magazine that does not do that correctly, your gun becomes a jam a matic. When you get a balky magazine you can bend and tweak the lips on the thing, and it may work for a while, but eventually, it goes bad. Relying on thin sheet metal for 100% feed has its risks.

Early bolt actions had milled integral feedlips. This was true of pre 64’s, but I am not uncorking one of those to get a picture. Feed lips were machined as a part of the receiver. As long as the receiver was properly machined, these integral feed lips provided the most precise, repeatable, and rugged cartridge feed and release of any type of feed mechanism. However, the feed lips had to be matched to the cartridge configuration, as the shape of the cartridge determined just how it was oriented and when it released from the magazine. Call it timing, timing is absolutely critical for reliable feed and this is something that was carefully studied for these military bolt actions. If the gun jams, Soldiers loose faith in the things. Feed problems would be revealed very soon on the firing range, have a couple of thousand Soldiers shooting a couple of hundred rounds a day, any unreliability due to poor magazines feed would show up many times in a day.

This picture shows a P14 at the top and a M1903 at the bottom. The P14 feed lips are configured for the 303 Brit round, it is obviously shaped differently from what would be needed for a 30-06.



Here is a post 64 M70, this one has a claw extractor. Typical of the post WW2 rifles there are no integral feedlips milled into the receiver. Instead proper feeding is primarly dependant on that stamped sheet magazine box.



This is why post WW2 rifles are less reliable in feed than the typical pre WW2 rifle, these cheap, often ill fitting, magazine boxes may or may not feed your particular cartridge well. You can bend the lips of the box, you can’t do much about the ridges, if everythings lines up properly the cartridges feeds well, if there is something out of alignment between the receiver and box, feed will not be 100% positive. This is not as positive as milled integral feed lips.

There are very good reasons firearms companies eliminated integral feedlips in the receiver: it cost too much to mill those surfaces, and people don’t shoot their rifles enough to notice!

Push feed extractors are very common, when used in conjuction with properly designed rifles the feed and extraction is very reliable. This is a M14 bolt face:



The US Army spent a good deal of time making sure that the M14 feed reliably. I believe the magazine was a John Garand design, it is fairly rugged, and even though the 308 cartridge is very straight, (not the best contour for feeding) I have never had a misfeed in the 20 plus years I have been shooting a M1a. The gun is very reliable in feed and extraction.

While the AR15 is a push feed, its greatest source of unreliability is its magazine. Based on what I have read from the period, (page 65 The FAL Rifle R Blake Stevens) the Army Infantry School did not want box magazines. They wanted clips. Just like the ones in their Garands. This is typical of the Army: it likes what it has, wants something better, but only a little different. They totally reject revolutionary change. Going away from clips was a road too long for the Army. The letter on page 65 goes into all the problems of box magazines, they are heavy, they are expensive, yada, yada, yada, the Infantry School wants clips. It is my opinion that Stoner responded to the Infantry School’s desires by designing the AR15 magazines to be cheap and out of aluminum. I have read from others that the original AR15 magazines were called “disposable” to placate the infantry. I have seen period training films where the magazine in the M14 was called “semi detachable” and loading the magazine from the top with a stripper clip was being demonstrated in the film. It is a fact that the M14 has a stripper clip guide on the top of the receiver. This is there to keep the Infantry school happy, though I never met anyone who ever loaded their M14 (especially in combat) with the box magazine in place using stripper clips. I tried doing that in practice and it was not easy, it was a thumb buster in practice.

So, while the AR15 is mechanically reliable, few parts break, ever since the original issue of the rifle, the magazine has been its greatest source of unreliability. The lips on that lightweight aluminum magazine will spread in time and stovepipe jams will result.

These are pictures of a jam, during sitting rapid fire, at a Highpower match. The shooter set that magazine aside and completed the match with his “good” magazines.

AR15 jam sitting rapid fire








A good deal of the reliability of the AK47 is due to the magazines. Just take a look at the feed lips on a AK47 magazine. They are double thickness steel with machined edges. The Soviet design team understood that detachable magazines had to be rugged and they did not spare the rubles in making them reliable.
 
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Ridge, if you're talking about having bedding material "under the chamber" as in a small pad just in front of the front recoil lug, I would leave it. Obviously I would leave everything on your gun alone as it seems to shoot very well for you. You're right...don't fix what aint broke. I've always bedded barreled actions with roughly an inch of bedding "pad" in front of the recoil lug and always will. Barrel harmonics during the shot doesn't cause this portion to move, there a rather large action bolt going through the stock securing the action tightly just behind that front recoil lug about an inch away. The rest of your barrel, after the chamber taper to the crown is what I free float and check after the barrel heats up to be sure it's not touching anywhere in the barrel channel of your stock. Nice rifle, I do like my Model 70s!
 
MJFlores' comments:
I've always bedded barreled actions with roughly an inch of bedding "pad" in front of the recoil lug and always will. Barrel harmonics during the shot doesn't cause this portion to move, there a rather large action bolt going through the stock securing the action tightly just behind that front recoil lug about an inch away.
It was interesting to me to learn from folks shooting Win. 70 based match rifles winning matches and setting records that none of them had any bedding stuff touching their barrels whatsoever. Espcially when I had the same reasoning back then as you mention above. These folks said it was easy to see how accuracy improved be starting out with the fore end bedded against the first 3 inches of the barrel in front of the barrel, properly testing for accuracy with that then again after an inch was removed from it's front part. Then again for each additional inch back. Every inch removed reduced test groups' vertical shot dispersion. I still had my doubts.

So I made that test with two Win. 70 match rifles. They were right.

If you don't think a barreled action whips much changing the pressure of the bedding pad under a barrel chamber to the barrel at that point, then please explain why those folks as well as me get best accuracy with nothing whatsoever touching the barrel; including all the benchresters whose barrels don't touch anything except the receiver. You might take a look at this page on barrel wiggling and whipping paying particular attention to modes 2 and 3 which cause the greatest amount of muzzle angle change when the bullet exits as well as right in front of the receiver which also bends in the vertical plane a little bit while the bullet's going down the barrel:

http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

It'll take a rifle and ammo shooting no worse than 1/4 MOA at 100 yards to see the difference that won't show up unless tested at ranges 300 yards and beyond.
 
There is a lot of information in this thread and most of it has been very informative. I like CRF actions especially Mauser style actions with 3 position safeties. I've always been one of Murphy's favorite whipping boys so when it comes to hunting rifles I'd like to eliminate any chance that Murphy will show up and present me with a double feed. As well elimination of extraction issues with a claw extractor is a plus. The down side for me is sight in or load work up where I fire from the bench and like to single load, rounds must be fed from the magazine which really isn't much of an issue for me I just push the round down in to the magazine.

Stu
 
I read the article “It’s all in the clawhttp://huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/Ahit'S All in the Claw.pdf

I say the “bad” example of a push feed rifle , where the round was ejected from the magazine before it got to the chamber, was more likely due to cheap stamped sheet metal magazines than due to a lack of a claw extractor. (Though, I prefer claw extractors.) I am not going to discount that the shooter in question might have bumped the cartridge out of the magazine, pulled the bolt back, which allowed the round to roll out of the magazine port, before pushing the bolt into battery.

I had this issue with a poorly made controlled feed “Classic” M70. The action never reliably fed rounds stacked on the left of the magazine, timing issues which were due to defective factory machining on the right rail. Trying to get the rifle to feed 308’s reliably, I tweaked and bent the magazine lips, none of which fixed the problem 100% but did cause other issues. In NRA competition you have to load during rapid fire sequences. There were a number of times the whole cartridge stack would “auto eject” after loading with a stripper clip. This rifle had the unfortunate habit that the top round would sometimes pop out and roll out of the action before I got back in position and push the bolt forward. Instead of shooting five rounds, I would count four, and then I would be patting the ground beneath my arm, searching for the round, just as the target went down. This was the beginning of my understanding that reliable feed required something more than a claw extractor.

The “experts” in the article are comparing military Mauser actions to later rifles, and besides the function differences, the only other difference they see is an external claw extractor. What they don’t see are the machined feed lips in the bottom of that Mauser action which are the primary reason that action is so reliable in feed.

Another erroneous impression in the article is that the Mauser will feed up side down, therefore proving the superiority of the claw. It is unfortunate that the author did not try the same with his push feed actions. I have picked up various push feed rifles and they also feed up side down. You can do this with your AR15, Garand, M1a, or a number of bolt rifles. A well designed rifle will feed up, left side up, right up, left side down, right side down, and upside down.

However, if it has magazine issues, it may not feed reliably in any direction.

While I prefer the claw type extractor in my bolt rifles, that alone will not fix the problems due to lack of attention paid to cartridge feed and the inherent unreliability’s introduced by cheap action design, cheap manufacturing and sloppy assembly.
 
The "claw extractor"..and controller round feeding. How do I put this gently? It's all marketing gimic. I'm not aware of any real "push feed" action where the loaded round just jumps out of the magazine and slides home without being engaged by the bolt. I've shown several people, that I can take my post 64 M70 (before "the claw" came back), tip the rifle upside down and chamber a round without the entire magazine emptying to the floor. There's simply no difference otherwise Remington and others would have followed suit and put some form of visible "claw" on their design. It's all pretty silly.
 
Well Mr MJFlores, I'd have to strongly disagree.

Please go back and read my first post. It's #3 on this thread.

It's not just a marketing gimmick.
Mauser type extractors and fixed ejectors are without a doubt more reliable. My log of repaired rifles over the last 40 years or so is proof enough.
 
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