reynolds357
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Bart, for some reason I am just not seeing many controlled bench rest actions floating around.
Controlled vs. Push Feed
- Thread starter DealHunter
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Reynolds,
Standard, sloppy fitting parts in a controlled-feed box-magazine action can and have shot bullets just as accurate as precision fit parts in solid bottom, single-shot push-feed benchrest actions. But far less than 1/10th% of accuracy afficianados know that and understand why.
Push-feed actions cost less and are easier to make, especially the round ones.
Standard, sloppy fitting parts in a controlled-feed box-magazine action can and have shot bullets just as accurate as precision fit parts in solid bottom, single-shot push-feed benchrest actions. But far less than 1/10th% of accuracy afficianados know that and understand why.
Push-feed actions cost less and are easier to make, especially the round ones.
Ridgerunner665
New member
All I know is that after taking Barts advice (digging through his old posts on this forum and others)...I have the most accurate rifle I have ever owned, a hunting rifle that will shoot right along with many far more specialized rigs (at least for 3-5 rounds....I've never fired more than 5 in a string, so I don't really know how many rounds it will hold tight)...I'm not gonna go bragging about group sizes, most wouldn't believe me anyway...
Thats an FN made Winchester model 70...the action and barrel are from an Ultimate Shadow (the budget model)...I bedded it onto the McMillan stock using MarineTex (grey), but not before doing a considerable amount of work getting the action to sit "PERFECTLY" in the stock...the inletting in the stock was decent, but far from perfect...the action sat too high in the stock, and not perfectly centered....after some very careful Dremel work it sits in there as close to perfect as anybody could ever get it...the stock has aluminum pillars, and is torqued to 65 in. lbs....oh, and I bedded about 1.5" in front of the action...some say do this, some say don't do it...I say it depends on the rifle...mine likes it, yours may not.
The bottom metal...more work...I used the factory Winchester bottom metal, it had to spend some time under the Dremel too...to get it to fit stress free (not in a bind).
Trigger...I just tweaked the factory trigger (MOA trigger)...it works fine.
Scope mounts...2 piece Warne steel bases.
Rings...TPS Super Low (aluminum)
Scope...Vortex Viper HS 4-16x44mm
The load...
Lapua brass
CCI BR2 primer
57.5 grains of H4350
168 grain Nolser Ballistic Tip
OAL ~3.34" (.005" off the lands)
2,850 fps
Loaded with Redding Competition dies
...and will shoot a fly in the eye at 600 yards.
It also shoots pretty darn good with Berger 175 VLD's...
Bart doesn't need me to back up his claims, he can do that all on his own...all I'm saying is that I listened to him....and I am darn glad I did...it took almost 3 years, $2000, and a few hundred rounds downrange...but I now have "my" prefect rifle, the one I've been searching for since I was just a kid.
Thank You BartB...
Thats an FN made Winchester model 70...the action and barrel are from an Ultimate Shadow (the budget model)...I bedded it onto the McMillan stock using MarineTex (grey), but not before doing a considerable amount of work getting the action to sit "PERFECTLY" in the stock...the inletting in the stock was decent, but far from perfect...the action sat too high in the stock, and not perfectly centered....after some very careful Dremel work it sits in there as close to perfect as anybody could ever get it...the stock has aluminum pillars, and is torqued to 65 in. lbs....oh, and I bedded about 1.5" in front of the action...some say do this, some say don't do it...I say it depends on the rifle...mine likes it, yours may not.
The bottom metal...more work...I used the factory Winchester bottom metal, it had to spend some time under the Dremel too...to get it to fit stress free (not in a bind).
Trigger...I just tweaked the factory trigger (MOA trigger)...it works fine.
Scope mounts...2 piece Warne steel bases.
Rings...TPS Super Low (aluminum)
Scope...Vortex Viper HS 4-16x44mm
The load...
Lapua brass
CCI BR2 primer
57.5 grains of H4350
168 grain Nolser Ballistic Tip
OAL ~3.34" (.005" off the lands)
2,850 fps
Loaded with Redding Competition dies
...and will shoot a fly in the eye at 600 yards.
It also shoots pretty darn good with Berger 175 VLD's...
Bart doesn't need me to back up his claims, he can do that all on his own...all I'm saying is that I listened to him....and I am darn glad I did...it took almost 3 years, $2000, and a few hundred rounds downrange...but I now have "my" prefect rifle, the one I've been searching for since I was just a kid.
Thank You BartB...
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Ridgerunner, why shoot a fly in the eye at 600 yards? One-eyed flys are just as dangerous to us humans as two, or even three-eyed flies. If your rifle's accurate enough, shoot that fly through a wing slicing it off. Then it's totally immobilized and you can go step on it.
Meanwhile, hog that bedding out from under the chamber area in front of the action so the barrel touches only the receiver. That may allow you to shoot many more shots to the same point of aim as the barrel heats up. That's what I had to do with my first two Model 70's I epoxy bedded.
Meanwhile, hog that bedding out from under the chamber area in front of the action so the barrel touches only the receiver. That may allow you to shoot many more shots to the same point of aim as the barrel heats up. That's what I had to do with my first two Model 70's I epoxy bedded.
Ridgerunner, that's a sweet piece, thanks for the description of the build. What caliber would that be? '06?
As to Controlled Round Feed, one thing to me is that with CRF, you don't have as much opportunity for operator error. You can feed and eject rounds without having to lock the bolt shut, so if you have a rifle with a blind box magazine, CRF is slightly safer to unload.
if you have a Ruger 77 with the Mauser looking extractor, do a little test. Feed a round from the magazine into the chamber, but do NOT turn down the bolt handle. Pull the bolt back. If the round extracts, its a CRF rifle. If not, its push feed. All the M77s I know (the early years manufactures) are push feed, even though they look like a CRF system. I understand at some point Ruger did change them to a true CRF, but I don't know when this was done, or even if it actually was.
As to Controlled Round Feed, one thing to me is that with CRF, you don't have as much opportunity for operator error. You can feed and eject rounds without having to lock the bolt shut, so if you have a rifle with a blind box magazine, CRF is slightly safer to unload.
if you have a Ruger 77 with the Mauser looking extractor, do a little test. Feed a round from the magazine into the chamber, but do NOT turn down the bolt handle. Pull the bolt back. If the round extracts, its a CRF rifle. If not, its push feed. All the M77s I know (the early years manufactures) are push feed, even though they look like a CRF system. I understand at some point Ruger did change them to a true CRF, but I don't know when this was done, or even if it actually was.
I agree that round push feed actions cost less to make but I also understand that's as a good thing when you consider the cost of precision rifle builds in total. My last 6mm PPC bench rest used a custom action that was a clone of a remington action but with very precision fit parts and alignment. If I were to get my young eyes back and decide to comission another rifle it would use one of the aluminum flat bottom actions to build a 6PPC single shot just for fun rifle.
Ridgerunner665
New member
I just typed out pretty long reply....and it got lost in cyberspace somehow...but yes, my rifle is a 30-06.
Bart...I'll reply (again) to your suggestion later when I'm on the laptop, I hate typing on my phone, lol.
Bart...I'll reply (again) to your suggestion later when I'm on the laptop, I hate typing on my phone, lol.
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Ridgerunner665
New member
Bart,
I bedded under the chamber because I figured it would be easier to remove it than it would be to add it later...and after getting my load sorted out I'm afraid to mess with it, lol....you know the old saying, "if it ain't broke..."
It shoots benchrest type 3-5 shot groups...and its only a hunting rifle, that's all it was ever intended to be...I just wanted the most accurate one I could get.
As long as it will put at least 3 shots in one hole...I'm not gonna mess with it.
That said, I'm certain you are right...it would probably hold tight for a longer string without the bedding under the chamber...it makes prefect sense.
I bedded under the chamber because I figured it would be easier to remove it than it would be to add it later...and after getting my load sorted out I'm afraid to mess with it, lol....you know the old saying, "if it ain't broke..."
It shoots benchrest type 3-5 shot groups...and its only a hunting rifle, that's all it was ever intended to be...I just wanted the most accurate one I could get.
As long as it will put at least 3 shots in one hole...I'm not gonna mess with it.
That said, I'm certain you are right...it would probably hold tight for a longer string without the bedding under the chamber...it makes prefect sense.
Ridgerunner665
New member
I should also give some credit to German Salazar (spelling?)...Bart told me how to build the rifle....Mr. Salazar told me how to load the ammo.
For those that don't know...German Salazar is a very accomplished shooter, and he loves the 30-06.
It might take a little more work to get a 30-06 to shoot with the newer rounds...but it certainly will do it.
For those that don't know...German Salazar is a very accomplished shooter, and he loves the 30-06.
It might take a little more work to get a 30-06 to shoot with the newer rounds...but it certainly will do it.
Ridgerunner665
New member
I never said anything about .050"
I only said "one hole"...
And from a hunting rig, even .1" is far better than most over the counter rifles will do.
To clarify...when I said "benchrest type"...I meant one hole, a hole that looks pretty much like only one round went through it...not a clover leaf, not a ragged hole....just a hole.
I only said "one hole"...
And from a hunting rig, even .1" is far better than most over the counter rifles will do.
To clarify...when I said "benchrest type"...I meant one hole, a hole that looks pretty much like only one round went through it...not a clover leaf, not a ragged hole....just a hole.
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Ridgerunner665
New member
Yep...just like the difference between a Corvette and a Ferrari...
One pays dearly for that last little bit of performance, lol.
And yes...a good hunting rifle is a joy to own and shoot...but very hard to come by these days, which is why I ended up building my own...nobody offered one that was just what I wanted.
One pays dearly for that last little bit of performance, lol.
And yes...a good hunting rifle is a joy to own and shoot...but very hard to come by these days, which is why I ended up building my own...nobody offered one that was just what I wanted.
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Ridgerunner665
New member
And to get back on topic...
Its not CRF that makes these actions so good (accurate)...its the big, heavy, stiff, square bottomed actions that do that...when properly fitted in the stock.
CRF is great though...smooth, reliable, and safe.
Its not CRF that makes these actions so good (accurate)...its the big, heavy, stiff, square bottomed actions that do that...when properly fitted in the stock.
CRF is great though...smooth, reliable, and safe.
JHansenAK47
New member
CRF is all about solving a specific problem, double feeding. While caribou hunting this year buck fever struck and I saw one guy clearing a double feed out of his 700 and another had to do the same thing on his savage. All of this was from being excited and not properly cycling the bolt. What they did was pull it back but not far enough to eject but far enough that they caught the rim of the next round in the magazine and had a doublefeed. All a CRF would have done for them in this case would been to prevent a doublefeed but there is a good chance they would have had a click when they pulled the trigger. CRF may save you from a doublefeed but push feed or CRF you need to work your bolt properly.
Why bother with CRF? Given that a lot of benchrest shooters like oddball outside of benchrest cartridges like 6mmBR why bother with making sure it feeds correctly when a single shot push feed completely circumvents all those issues.
True CRF needs be loaded from the magazine. The extractor on the mauser although it can jump the rim isn't designed to regularly jump the rim. A lot of bench rest shooters have single shot adapters to get that extra little bit of accuracy that is lost by denting and dinging your rounds when feeding from the magazine.
Using a single shot push feed setup has no real disadvantages in benchrest and completely removes all issues associated with feeding from a magazine.
Why bother with CRF? Given that a lot of benchrest shooters like oddball outside of benchrest cartridges like 6mmBR why bother with making sure it feeds correctly when a single shot push feed completely circumvents all those issues.
Ridgerunner665
New member
One more thing that might be worth putting in here...
My rifle consistently shot .5 MOA in factory trim, right out of the box.
My son has one just like it, still in factory trim, that does the same.
Meaning...you have to start with a well built action and barrel....no amount of work will make a poorly built rifle shoot at this level.
Or....even if you polish a ****, its still a ****.
My rifle consistently shot .5 MOA in factory trim, right out of the box.
My son has one just like it, still in factory trim, that does the same.
Meaning...you have to start with a well built action and barrel....no amount of work will make a poorly built rifle shoot at this level.
Or....even if you polish a ****, its still a ****.
"CRF is all about solving a specific problem ..."
Yes, but not the problem most folks think. Mauser's original patents showed a push feed mechanism not greatly different from the Remington 700 (though with a different type of extractor). But if, in the heat of battle, a shooter feeds a case into the chamber but doesn't lock the bolt down, then opens the bolt again, the unfired cartridge will remain in the chamber. When the next round is fed, its nice sharp, FMJ bullet can dig into the primer of the round in the chamber, causing a bit of a problem. When bullets were big and made of soft lead, there was little problem, but jacketed spitzer bullets made a difference, and Mauser went to a controlled feed.
Current push feed rifles have magazine feed lips that are designed to prevent that condition, and keep the bullet point away from the primer, but if the caliber is changed, the feed lips must be taken into consideration.
Jim
Yes, but not the problem most folks think. Mauser's original patents showed a push feed mechanism not greatly different from the Remington 700 (though with a different type of extractor). But if, in the heat of battle, a shooter feeds a case into the chamber but doesn't lock the bolt down, then opens the bolt again, the unfired cartridge will remain in the chamber. When the next round is fed, its nice sharp, FMJ bullet can dig into the primer of the round in the chamber, causing a bit of a problem. When bullets were big and made of soft lead, there was little problem, but jacketed spitzer bullets made a difference, and Mauser went to a controlled feed.
Current push feed rifles have magazine feed lips that are designed to prevent that condition, and keep the bullet point away from the primer, but if the caliber is changed, the feed lips must be taken into consideration.
Jim
Most of my rifles have been CRF. For me, though, as little as I shoot, it's not a deal-breaker either way.
My current rifles are mostly push feed and they get the job done as well.
Thanks for the tip about the soaking during storage Wyosmith, but wouldn't the Hoppes 9 just dry out in short order and leave the garbage in the extractor slot anyhow? Or am I picturing this wrong in my head?
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thanks for the reply, wyosmith
My current rifles are mostly push feed and they get the job done as well.
Thanks for the tip about the soaking during storage Wyosmith, but wouldn't the Hoppes 9 just dry out in short order and leave the garbage in the extractor slot anyhow? Or am I picturing this wrong in my head?
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thanks for the reply, wyosmith
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Note on Ruger 77s;
An easier way to know if a Ruger 77 is push feed or controlled round feed is simply to look at the safety. Those with a tang safety are push feed. The 77 Mk2 is the one with the 3 position safety on the bolt side of the receiver, just behind the bolt handle.
Doofis, Hopies is not water based. Its oil based, so it never dries out. (Or if it does it must take a very long time)
The idea is to dissolve the crud into a liquid or semi-liquid so there is nothing solid in the recesses to bind up. It will not remove 100% of the crud but the dipping every time floods out most of it. What is left is not enough to bind up the springs or plungers and the oil of the solvent acts to fight rust in the bottom of those holes where you would not know you were growing any.
An easier way to know if a Ruger 77 is push feed or controlled round feed is simply to look at the safety. Those with a tang safety are push feed. The 77 Mk2 is the one with the 3 position safety on the bolt side of the receiver, just behind the bolt handle.
Doofis, Hopies is not water based. Its oil based, so it never dries out. (Or if it does it must take a very long time)
The idea is to dissolve the crud into a liquid or semi-liquid so there is nothing solid in the recesses to bind up. It will not remove 100% of the crud but the dipping every time floods out most of it. What is left is not enough to bind up the springs or plungers and the oil of the solvent acts to fight rust in the bottom of those holes where you would not know you were growing any.
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I think it comes down to user preference.
I have both, in all different types of guns, and I don't mind either.
I have a Kimber 8400 Advanced Tactical .308 that is CRF that is my favorite long range rig currently.
I will also be taking a Kimber 84 Mountain Ascent .308 bear hunting tomorrow.
On the flip side. I have/had a Rem. 700P LTR both in .308 and 6.8SPC (sold it sadly) that were amazingly accurate for their intended purposes.
I also had a Savage Model 10 McMillian that proved to be great as well.
Hunting rifles I have the full gambit from Remington, Weatherby, Sako, Savage, Kimber, ect. They all work great. If you like one over the other, I wouldn't hesitate to own either.
I have both, in all different types of guns, and I don't mind either.
I have a Kimber 8400 Advanced Tactical .308 that is CRF that is my favorite long range rig currently.
I will also be taking a Kimber 84 Mountain Ascent .308 bear hunting tomorrow.
On the flip side. I have/had a Rem. 700P LTR both in .308 and 6.8SPC (sold it sadly) that were amazingly accurate for their intended purposes.
I also had a Savage Model 10 McMillian that proved to be great as well.
Hunting rifles I have the full gambit from Remington, Weatherby, Sako, Savage, Kimber, ect. They all work great. If you like one over the other, I wouldn't hesitate to own either.
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