Controlled Round Feed, thoughts...

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A push feed bolt action rifle is more apt to jam from a double feed.

A double feed is where a round is pushed part ways into the chamber and then another round is started along side it making a jam.

A Mauser type extractor will grip the rim and pull the first round out.

Besides, those push feed bolt faces don't look like good machinery.
 
Thousands upon thousands of rounds through push feed semi auto rifles without failure due to the feeding system have said to me that there really isn't a problem with push feed.

Every FTE and/or FTF I've had with my rifles (all push feed) have had to do with malfunctioning magazines (ie mag lips) and/or squib loads. Sure you could argue this and argue that but if you put a detachable mag on a push feed mechanism and made it semi-auto you'd still end up with a similar ratio of issues... and for that matter more than likely the SAME issues.

When it comes to bolt action rifles I've ONLY ever had push feeds and have never had a problem with the rifle failing to feed or eject - and I abuse my firearms. My bolt actions are kept clean but they are used and exposed to all types of conditions, snow, rain, hot, cold, muddy, wet, dry and once, sandy. They've all worked just fine for me.

My ARs are even more abused - I only clean them once every couple thousand rounds. They are fired (a lot) in rain, mud, snow, hot and cold... arid and humid. Again no feed issues arising purely because of the feeding system... and I've got tens of thousands of rounds through these rifles altogether thus far.
 
I think the whole CRF argument is just utter nonsense.
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Think as you wish, but the facts differ ... celebrity choices notwithstanding.

Winchester, CZ, and many other rifle makers bask in the sun of CRF! The new Winchester could have went either way; CRF was the choice, and the favorite of millions of riflemen in the USA for a long, long, time. It is a superior design for folks who may actually need a rifle to defend life & limb. Push feed is wonderful for animals that don't bite back.

To argue otherwise is just utter nonsense...

Selby's legacy is his legendary use of his 416 Rigby on dangerous game. Call Rigby and order a push feed ... let me know how that goes...

When I use to check my bear baits in Colorado, I had a push feed .338 Winchester, my Remington Custom Shop KS 350 mag, and my Winchester 7mm STW, and my Weatherby 300 Mag ... all lovely rifles that took more game than I can list, but, and there always is a but in life, I took my O3A3 Springfield ought-six because I trusted the CRF action when possible close work with bears was the job at hand!

I also shot thousands and thousands of rounds through my push feed Remington 10x in .220 Swift, which was great on prairie dogs, but, and there always is a but in life, if it were rabid coyotes that I was chasing I would have taken my O3A3 with accelerators instead ... for the same reason!

Danger: CRF over Push Feed any day of the week.

Push Feed was born to cut the costs for the rifle makers ... Period!
 
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I agree, but to a point, One of my Controlled feed rifles is a Jam O Matic, but the reason is because it was changed from 7x57 Mauser to .308 and where the cartridge is picked up out of the magazine is too far back for the shorter .308 cartridge and the cartridge sticks up, and impacts on the rear of the barrel above the bore.
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I do not understand at what point you agree to. You state that the rifle was changed from a working rifle to one with problems after changing the design parameters of the working rifle to a design that does not work. How does this give you any pause to doubt CRF when it was the rifle owner who is the direct cause of the failures of the rifle?

I think the 7x57 version of this rifle was probably a great rifle, and a similar rifle was used by Karamojo Bell to take many hundreds of elephants ... speaking of celebrity use of rifles, who made Harry Selby look like a tyro ... Bell, another big fan of CRF rifles!:eek:
 
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The only problem I have encountered is a CFR will pick up anything, hold it against the bolt and fire it. Wrong round or not it will fire it.
 
WildBill 45

Sorry my point flew over your head, Im in the Fan of Controlled feed camp.
But I went a little deeper to bring to light that if a rifle has been modified in correctly, such as sporterizing and changing the cartridge in which it was designed for it may not perform as reliably as originaly intended.
The point went deeper than some may catch on, because sporterizing surplus controlled feed actions is popular, so I didnt want someone to run across a similar situation and base their judgment on the reliability of that perticular rifle, if you would have read further in my post you would have noticed my closing statement, and I quote myself.




"But if you have a properly tuned controlled feed rifle chambered in the cartridge it was designed for its almost unstopable".
 
I have stood on the ground with my two, and faced a lion on his four, and nothing but a CRF will do under such dire circumstances ... in that case all I had was a camera.
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I'm thinking that if you made it through with only a camera, chances are better than extremely good that you would have also survived even if all you had been carrying was a push-feed action. ;)
I had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.
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What sort of problems?
 
Have both perfer CRF

I've got both PF and CRF and mine all have the bolt on the correct side, the left side. I own a rare stainless LH Win 70 CRF in .338. For reliability I even screwed the floor plate shut on that rifle. No bumping the floor plate button and dumping the rounds for me. Other features of that design like the field strippable bolt are also helpful for reliability in the field.

I do use my rifles for extended forays in to the wild and and bought a Montana 1999 for my go to lower 48 backpack hunting rifle. It is a Win 70 CRF knockoff with some changes in .308.

I do have a very reliable 06 model Rem 700 and would trust that rifle almost as much as the other two. I did face down a lion (mountain) with that rifle but I had one in the chamber and wouldn't have had any time for a follow up if the lion leapt for me. It did not, and we parted company on good terms. No I didn't shoot it. I didn't have a tag and didn't want to kill it.
 
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"Winchester, CZ, and many other rifle makers bask in the sun of CRF! The new Winchester could have went either way; CRF was the choice, and the favorite of millions of riflemen in the USA for a long, long, time. It is a superior design for folks who may actually need a rifle to defend life & limb. Push feed is wonderful for animals that don't bite back.

To argue otherwise is just utter nonsense..."


My Winchester Model 70 Classic with claw extractor in 30-06 is only CRF half the time, when it is feeding from the right side of magazine. When it is feeding from the left, it is a push feed until the last bit before round is fully chambered. The rim of the cartridge does not slide under the extractor as it is released from the left side of the magazine. Many other so called CRF actions are the same. My Mauser in .375 H&H exhibits the same behavior, although with the larger diameter case it does slide under the claw earlier in the cycle.

Proponents of the CRF discuss preventing double feeds as an advantage. That is a very unlikely malfunction, as it requires fully opening bolt, closing it almost halfway (in order to release round from magazine), then opening bolt fully again to try to feed a second round. This is not something that is likely to be done in the "heat of battle" so to speak. Short stroking the bolt and failure to close completely are much more common mistakes made in tense situations. CRF and push feed act the same way in these situations. Short stroking fails to feed a live round and failure to completely close handle usually will cause a misfire, as the strikers energy is used closing bolt instead of igniting primer.

If CRF makes you feel better, go for it ! There is a lot to be said for confidence, whether that confidence comes from emotions instead of facts, but in the real world if a rifle is reliable, it matters not. Both push feeds and CRFs can be equally reliable.
 
Since all my hunting is in the lower 48 if I was going to hunt Africa for dangerous game or Alaska/Canada for bears or other places I'd have to buy a rifle.

I own both Win CF and Rem push feed never had a problem with either type.
 
Since all my hunting is in the lower 48 if I was going to hunt Africa for dangerous game or Alaska/Canada for bears or other places I'd have to buy a rifle.
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Depends on what you are doing. If you hunted plains game it is not a problem, you have a guide backup with you most of the time anyway. Dangerous game you have a backup as well, but, and there always is a butt in life, you may not want to put your life in the hands of another ... prepare yourself, and choose a rifle you would use if alone. If the pro gets killed, and I personally knew one who did, YOU ARE ALONE!
 
This is an interesting thread without all the "mines better than your becauses". I study firearms design. I routuinely completely disassemble a gun and examine every screw and part. Been doing this for 50 years. One statement made here I have to differ with. A controlled round feed firearm DOES and in a dramitic faction help a cartridge enter a chamber better than a push feed. I take many a gun and shoot it and cycle it at different angles. This is a real eye opener. One popular brand of lever guns will not cycle when laid on its port side. However their are many firearms designs that are controlled round feed that arent bolt guns. The Winchester 1890-1906-62--61, 22 pump action rifles are all controled round feed. The Colt Woodsman 22 handguns are controlled round feed. Many Smith & Wesson self loaders are control round feed. The are many other handguns and rifles that are control round feeds. And while I am a huge Winchester fan, the Savage 99, probably the best lever gun ever designed, is a controlled round feed gun while the Winchesters lever guns arent. As someone earlier stated, it is a marvel to watch a good designed control round action cycle.
 
Really is a lot of conjecture going on around here, and while I agree CRF is nice. I still don't think it is going to save your butt in a dangerous situation if you can't keep your wits about you. I'd really like to hear from guides/PH's that hunt DG for a living with clients about their preference of rifles their clients carry. I visit an African and Alaskan hunting forums on regular basis and this same discussion goes on everywhere. Really all it boils down to is preference, as to what you use.

There are some guys that will only hunt with double rifles, for the quick follow up. Then there are the guys who hunt with everything else. Plus there are hunters who borrow rifles and are give M700's from their guide/PH to do a DG hunt with. I doubt your going to complain much when an accurate rifle is put in your hands to hunt with after you paid several thousand dollars to hunt, and traveled several thousand miles.

From what I gather from the guides and PH who post on there as well the could care less what rifle you use as long as you shoot it well. If you don't shoot it well then the guide is going to have to work harder to put you on an animal at close range so that the risk of chasing a wounded animal is less. Plus those same guides and PH's have their own idea as to what kind of rifle they like to carry for backing up their clients.
 
TAYLORCE1, is correct in his assesment of some professional guides. I was a guide for years but for deer,elk and antelope. It does not matter what proffesion a person is in, as long as he is getting paid that makes his a proffesional, I quess. I have interviewer many proffesional guide and hunter alike and all have different experences and preferences. As a guide it didnt matter what my clients brought as a gun, nobody was likely to get hurt from a failure. However every year I witnessed gun malfuntions that cost the client an animal, and required us guides to go back and find them another animal to shoot. My greatest regret as a hunter and guide and range officer is my lack of a well documented record of all kills, bullets used, shots taken, gun malfuntions, operator error, ect. As a range officer I see many many gun malfuntions at the range, most are just glitches that were easy to remidy but would have let an animal escape if these were field conditions. So many of these range malfunctions were handload malfunctions. I did document gun malfunctions, starting last year, recorded them on my comp, and then proceeded to send them to data heaven, to never be recovered. I will again this year record all glitches and will post a detailed report at the end of the season. So many proffesional guides I met were just very young "kids" ,like myself in my guiding, that were cronically short of money, and the gun and equipment they used was whatever they could find cheap. From knives to bullets. I have always believed in any proffesion, 90% of the people are there to get a paycheck, only 10% are true proffesionals and of that 10%, 5% "wrote the book". Just my observation. Again my research of guides is for non dangerous game.
 
WildBill45, I understand the difference between a Plain Hunt vs Dangerous hunt that may require a back-up but hopefully the rifle I select and shot I take would be enough.
 
dgludwig, asked the question before I could. I am curious what disadvantage a control round feed action has. Not trying to start an arguement but am curious what issues were encountered with this type of feed system.
 
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