Considering Switching from .45 Auto to 9mm

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LEO's/Military - Shoot their way Into Trouble.
Civilians - Shoot their way Out of Trouble.

For an EDC/SD round:

Bigger is better, and fewer is OK.

So carry the biggest pistol you can (and will), and that you can shoot smoothly and accurately.

For me, that's a GLOCK G36 6+1 .45 ACP in an IWB holster.

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Red
 
I'm fortunate enough to have the ability to carry a full sized .45 that mitigates recoil well. I suspect that my split times would become unacceptable to me in a compact or subcompact .45. However, I objectively shoot a 9mm faster with the same amount of accuracy, thus I must consider switching to give myself every advantage I can.

It sounds like 9mm really is close enough in effectiveness to the larger calibers that the advantages of my old .45 may not make enough difference to be worth the slower split times, lower capacity, and increased expense of practice ammunition. I'm going to have to seriously consider getting a Glock 9mm to replace my G21 as an every day carry gun, as much as I have an emotional attachment to the .45 Auto cartridge and shoot it well.

I've heard many say that Law Enforcement Agencies that switch to 9mm are reporting great results in officer involves shootings on par with .40 and .45. I'm trying to find direct sources to corroborate this and find more details.
 
Quote: (HAWG) - To each his own. I'm perfectly comfortable with .45 ACP, I'm not overly fond of the 9MM.


I need to do a +1 to this post ! I own only one 9MM, and that is a Sig P226 my Son gave me for my birthday a few years ago. The sig is an outstanding weapon, and extremely accurate, but has not been out of the safe in close to 10 years except for cleaning !!
Confidence in your choice is important, & my 1911 gets my vote every time.
 
I've seen people shot with both and it wasn't until the slug was dug out of them (though most times a pass through) that I could tell what they were shot with.
 
the chances are so slim that I dont worry about what caliber I use, 9mm or 45 is fine

I wouldnt bother switching to 9mm if you are good with a .45 just use what your good with and stick with it.

I would use a G21 for home defense
 
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My take, as a guy originally enamored with the 45, is this...

Lots of arguments spend a great deal of bandwidth arguing whether 45acp as a wounding capacity advantage over 9mm (1 round for 1 round). I contend that it is highly likely that it does have some advantage, especially since I believe momentum does a little bit more than knock bowling pins over with greater authority. Be that as it may, I do not contend that there is any radical terminal ballistic advantage to 45 or 40 over 9mm. Slight advantages... yes. Big ones, no.

To the follow up shots are quicker with a 9mm crowd... a shot timer tells me that this advantage is way overplayed. Im better with my 1911 than with my CZ P07 on a dueling tree... so long as I don't need more than 8 rounds. I'm much better with both than I am with a glock 19. I personally believe the follow up shots are much faster argument is frequently touted by caliber defenders who have never actually measured their shots with a timer.

Where 9mm shines is platform size and capacity. I can carry a 16 rounds of 9mm for less size and weight than 9 rounds of 45. Small, reliable 9mm pistols that are easy to carry are common. You can only reduce size in 45 so much, and the sub compact 45 carry pieces usually are more problematic. Take kahrs cw series. Their cw9 gets rave reviews and few complaints. For this reason, I now mostly carry 9mm.
 
I am not convinced that there is a dramatic difference between 9mm and 45ACP when it does just come to inflicting trauma
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TunnelRat, I hope my point was clear that while shot placement to a definite reason generally trumps caliber difference, sometimes we are dealt a bad hand and a less definite reason could be our only hope. That's when the caliber wars become relevant. There are cases where we see a big difference in destructive capability, which is why I've personally given up on .380 and .38 special in favor of 9mm, .327 Federal, .40 S&W, etc. However, the difference between good defensive ammo in some of those uncontroversially non-marginal calibers can be less substantial.

Comparing the destructive capabilities to flesh and bone for good defensive ammo in 9mm and .45 acp, I'd generally prefer .45 acp. The problem is that's not our only variable. At least for me, the amount better that .45 acp can be in that department isn't enough to get over all the other advantages that 9mm brings to the table. I'll take 9mm over .45 acp in almost every situation.

If we are comparing full-sized pistols that are comfortable to shoot, I will however take .40 S&W over 9mm. That's because there is a noticeable increase in destructive capability and it comes with less of a trade-off.
 
But that doesn't tell you how long, or at what point, it stopped the fight.




Red
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I counted on witness testimony, blood trail if any, and the "victim's" actions after being shot. some ran a short distance from the scene, some were FRT.
 
"I've seen people shot with both and it wasn't until the slug was dug out of them (though most times a pass through) that I could tell what they were shot with."

Silly you! Then they could NOT have been shot with a .45!

Everyone knows that people hit with the .45 simply cease to exist. Their corporeal being is blown into a dimension in between universes, and their souls are simply eliminated.

Or so many would have us believe... :D
 
"I've seen people shot with both and it wasn't until the slug was dug out of them (though most times a pass through) that I could tell what they were shot with."
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And the ones hit with a 9 must had been hit with so many follow up shots there wouldn't be much left of them :D
 
30-06, keep your .45's and buy the 9mm, as I predict the 9 is just a passing fad for you, an impulse to the dark side if you will...

Your long experience with the grand old master of all pistol cartridges, the .45 ACP will win out. You'll be back!

I'll add these lines from a long-forgotten piece I memorized as a teen in the 60's (slightly modified).
For wide open spaces a ?9's? all right,
Where there's time, space, and distance, with plenty of light,
But for work on the instant, when shooting is tight,
You can't get the slant with a ?9?.

So, I'll say at times it is all very well,
But for deviltry, death, and the raising of hell,
The Colt .45 is unusually swell
And will go wh you can't with a ?9?.

You can splatter a dollar at seventy feet
With a stunning precision that's pleasing and neat;
So I'll still make the claim that the Colt .45 can't be beat
And will do what you can't with a ?9?.

For when something is crashing the alders ahead,
And it's death to that brute, or you in its stead,
Let the Colt automat, the fist-filling gat, the chunky blue cat,
Chuck its competent lead.​

PS: loose the Glock wanna-be's.

Best advice I can come up with after 53 years with the .45.

Best Regards, Rod
 
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LEO's/Military - Shoot their way Into Trouble.
Civilians - Shoot their way Out of Trouble.

For an EDC/SD round: Bigger is better, and fewer is OK.

So carry the biggest pistol you can (and will), and that you can shoot smoothly and accurately.
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Excellent advice, Red Devil Best Regards, Rod
 
Skill with handgun under fire is a plus but if the bad guy has a rifle your in deep do do. The
FBI Miami shoot out was a failure before it started. The big bank shootout in California was
proof of this again. These perps were on a much higher level that hood rats. Cops need to
be armed with weapons that will defeat body armor.
 
30-06 Rifleman said:
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/HST_Caliber_Comparison.htm

This test does give me pause. The 147gr HST is supposed to be one of the top-performing 9mm rounds, and it failed to reach the FBI's minimum penetration of 12 inches in bare gel in this test. I know it's only .10" short, but that's still a fail and the .45 did not. I've always respected Dr. Roberts' work in this field.
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That's pretty much what I took away from Lucky Gunner's ammunition test. Certain 9mm loads meet that standard, .40 and .45 meet that standard much more easily.
 
One test of one 9mm load gives you pause about an entire caliber? Good grief, in that case just carry the 45ACP. You're looking for definitive proof on a nuanced subject. Here's a test that has a different result.
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If it was a cheap or gimmicky lightweight 9mm round I wouldn't think much of it, but the HSTs, in my understanding, are cream of the crop in 9mm. It doesn't get much better.

Most of the tests of the 147gr HST I've seen, including the LuckyGunner one linked, show it penetrating at least 12 inches, but I wonder if it's less consistent about reaching that minimum.

People love worrying about the hardware for what is at its core a mostly software problem.
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I admit I'm definitely overthinking this. While I shoot .45 Auto very well, I've pretty much maxed out my proficiency with it, which is why I'm considering switching to 9mm since I objectively have faster split times with it. Just want to make sure I can count on it to penetrate reliably.
 
Unless you're willing to go out and purchase hundreds of rounds of defensive ammo, get dozens of gel blocks and calibrate them, and shoot all of them from the pistol you choose to carry, and do your damndest to control all other factors, you're not going to have definitive proof. There will always be a test that shows an exception and provides conflicting results. This is the nature of statistics. You use the data available and make a decision based on the average. This whole thread seems to be you looking for the one test that will decide this for you by providing irrefutable proof. There is no such test, that's why this debate goes on.

I repeat what I said, if one load from one manufacturer in one bullet weight in one test not performing as desired is enough to give you significant pause about a caliber as a whole, you should not change calibers. That wasn't me being facetious. That's me saying you're not in the mindset to make that change. Sure as hell don't replace what you know to be a system that works for you. At most get another gun at some point if you want to, even if it takes the time to save the money to do that. You're not going to be at some significant disadvantage with a Glock 21, certainly not compared to what some are willing to carry. Your skill with the weapon will be far more relevant.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
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Silly you! Then they could NOT have been shot with a .45!

Everyone knows that people hit with the .45 simply cease to exist. Their corporeal being is blown into a dimension in between universes, and their souls are simply eliminated.
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It happens all the time but we don't know about it because the people hit with it are totally erased from the time line. They vanish from history and memory completely.

Seriously though, I think it's pretty well settled that any cartridge capable of getting to one of those definite stop points (brain, spinal cord, etc.) will do the job. For hits that open up a less than definite potential to stop an attacker, or at least give you a little space to escape (pain, realization of being shot, mechanical damage to muscle or bone, etc.), I think there are two valuable resources:

1. Actual footage of violent crime and defensive encounters. I strongly recommend the Active Self Protection Channel on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw

2. Meat targets. It's not just silly fun for the boys when you've got expired meat or a rotten carcass hanging about. Gel is awesome for comparing cartridges on a standardized medium. We can learn a lot from gel but it isn't the whole picture. There is much that can be learned about how particular cartridges perform by seeing them perform in a medium that more closely resembles bad guys and dangerous animals. This is obviously cost prohibitive but here is a YouTube channel that has done a bunch of it:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6QH13V2o68zynSa0hZy9uQ
 
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