Concealed Handguns vs Orlando terrorism last night
- Thread starter TXAZ
- Start date
44amp, I think I agree with your general sentiment of "do the right thing whatever it is" but I firmly believe that the cases where it "didn't matter" are really rare (I actually can't think of one where a CCW engaged, died immediately, and made no difference... Are you thinking of one in particular?). I think 9/10 acting matters.
These are my role models. Some died some did not, some acted some did not. You should be looking for the chance to act if you can effectively do so, the chance to flee if you can't effectively act. (In my opinion)
Http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-ccw-holder-likely-prevented-larger-clackamas
Feared hitting a bystander, did not shoot. The attacker (potentially) saw the armed response and chose to end his own life. This is a fabulous example of action and discretion being deployed equally.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...vegas-shooters-from-continuing-killing-spree/
This guy died but stopped the attack. He should have been more situationally aware but who can blame him. This case makes me wonder if the same result could have been accomplished with suppressive fire and better concealmemt with no loss of his own life? Once a shooter encounters resistance the encounter ends rapidly...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...later-vic-stacy-and-the-peach-house-shootout/
Not a mass shooting per se but another good example of just not being a coward and how that really does matter.
http://politicaloutcast.com/daughter-regrets-leaving-gun-in-car-after-parents-murdered/
This is the closest to Pulse. Gun Free Zone and so she left it in her car. A damn shame.
All my news sources are terrible in that they are not mainstream, FYI, but for what it's worth I believe that despite the low production values these stories are substantially accurate.
The common threads in the worst of these tragedies is no armed resistance, and no determined resistance of any kind. I'm great at shooting paper and I imagine the dead people in Pulse night club behaved as if they were paper based on the death toll.
Freeze? You're a lot like paper. Hit the ground and remain stationary? A lot like paper. The reason this guy got results like he was at a match with only scant practice is because his targets emulated bullseye targets...
So when fellow shooters who have chosen to get a CCW and are practiced marksmen or even IDPA/IPSC shooters and say that not only would they do nothing when they could do nothing, but that they'd do nothing even if they could do something, with the implication that they would escape pretty much exclusively because the shooter would be distracted with shooting those who fled less effectively, I do not respect that.
This shooter at pulse had mere hours of rifle practice. I have more hours working specific weapons than he does using weapons at all based on his last-week purchase of the guns and ammo. I strongly suspect, based on my own novice rifle practice and the shots this shooter took, that if he stood still I could out shoot him with my anything than his rifle at 25yds.
One victim was shot, presumably from a torso POA, in the hand, hip, and leg with three shots as he lay motionless and prone. I say "presumably" because the shooter is dead so we don't know for certain, but survivors claim he was firing at stationary "bodies" to ensure they were dead. I presume he aimed head or torso for those shots and thus hand, hip, leg shots indicate terrible accuracy even with a bullseye target performance from the humans he targeted.
I understand fully the lack of desire to be perceived as chest beating, and I agree that we are not free lance cops and we shouldn't seek conflict. At the same time we shouldn't shove our fellow citizens under the bus or leave them behind to save ourselves. We certainly shouldn't proudly state how we can't wait to shove women or children overboard to save ourselves...
Ed: if I have a CCW and proudly state I can't wait to not help out, why would the general public care if I carried in their bar/club legally (if allowed?). I've stated I won't help them so why should they care if I can help myself. Rejecting the community is rejecting yourself.
These are my role models. Some died some did not, some acted some did not. You should be looking for the chance to act if you can effectively do so, the chance to flee if you can't effectively act. (In my opinion)
Http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-ccw-holder-likely-prevented-larger-clackamas
Feared hitting a bystander, did not shoot. The attacker (potentially) saw the armed response and chose to end his own life. This is a fabulous example of action and discretion being deployed equally.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...vegas-shooters-from-continuing-killing-spree/
This guy died but stopped the attack. He should have been more situationally aware but who can blame him. This case makes me wonder if the same result could have been accomplished with suppressive fire and better concealmemt with no loss of his own life? Once a shooter encounters resistance the encounter ends rapidly...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...later-vic-stacy-and-the-peach-house-shootout/
Not a mass shooting per se but another good example of just not being a coward and how that really does matter.
http://politicaloutcast.com/daughter-regrets-leaving-gun-in-car-after-parents-murdered/
This is the closest to Pulse. Gun Free Zone and so she left it in her car. A damn shame.
All my news sources are terrible in that they are not mainstream, FYI, but for what it's worth I believe that despite the low production values these stories are substantially accurate.
The common threads in the worst of these tragedies is no armed resistance, and no determined resistance of any kind. I'm great at shooting paper and I imagine the dead people in Pulse night club behaved as if they were paper based on the death toll.
Freeze? You're a lot like paper. Hit the ground and remain stationary? A lot like paper. The reason this guy got results like he was at a match with only scant practice is because his targets emulated bullseye targets...
So when fellow shooters who have chosen to get a CCW and are practiced marksmen or even IDPA/IPSC shooters and say that not only would they do nothing when they could do nothing, but that they'd do nothing even if they could do something, with the implication that they would escape pretty much exclusively because the shooter would be distracted with shooting those who fled less effectively, I do not respect that.
This shooter at pulse had mere hours of rifle practice. I have more hours working specific weapons than he does using weapons at all based on his last-week purchase of the guns and ammo. I strongly suspect, based on my own novice rifle practice and the shots this shooter took, that if he stood still I could out shoot him with my anything than his rifle at 25yds.
One victim was shot, presumably from a torso POA, in the hand, hip, and leg with three shots as he lay motionless and prone. I say "presumably" because the shooter is dead so we don't know for certain, but survivors claim he was firing at stationary "bodies" to ensure they were dead. I presume he aimed head or torso for those shots and thus hand, hip, leg shots indicate terrible accuracy even with a bullseye target performance from the humans he targeted.
I understand fully the lack of desire to be perceived as chest beating, and I agree that we are not free lance cops and we shouldn't seek conflict. At the same time we shouldn't shove our fellow citizens under the bus or leave them behind to save ourselves. We certainly shouldn't proudly state how we can't wait to shove women or children overboard to save ourselves...
Ed: if I have a CCW and proudly state I can't wait to not help out, why would the general public care if I carried in their bar/club legally (if allowed?). I've stated I won't help them so why should they care if I can help myself. Rejecting the community is rejecting yourself.
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A lot of good intentions expressed here, and as to myself, I do believe we are our brothers keeper.
But I believe sometimes it so easily happens that a Walter Mitty good guy fighting evil can cloud our view of reality.
Vast majority of mass shootings occur in conditions so noisy and crowded that you will probably will not see the shooter fire first shoots. As you look about for someone with gun in hand, the first gunman you see may well be another CCW looking for the perp. So, you can't shoot him until you see him shoot someone.
OOPS!! You just shot the CCW , who just shot the perp. Cops walk in, see your gun - now you're dead.
Gunsmoke, Wyatt Erp, great westerns were/are great entertainment. They fulfill everyman's wish for quick swift easily discerned justice. However, reality is so much more difficult to discover the bad guy so easily. And our justice system has steadily distanced itself from justice. It has become a lawyers game often with rich rewards for playing the legal system for monetary returns, not to be shackled by integrity, honesty, or a thirst for justice.
So, beware. Let "I know", not "I think" precede any action. .Pat
But I believe sometimes it so easily happens that a Walter Mitty good guy fighting evil can cloud our view of reality.
Vast majority of mass shootings occur in conditions so noisy and crowded that you will probably will not see the shooter fire first shoots. As you look about for someone with gun in hand, the first gunman you see may well be another CCW looking for the perp. So, you can't shoot him until you see him shoot someone.
OOPS!! You just shot the CCW , who just shot the perp. Cops walk in, see your gun - now you're dead.
Gunsmoke, Wyatt Erp, great westerns were/are great entertainment. They fulfill everyman's wish for quick swift easily discerned justice. However, reality is so much more difficult to discover the bad guy so easily. And our justice system has steadily distanced itself from justice. It has become a lawyers game often with rich rewards for playing the legal system for monetary returns, not to be shackled by integrity, honesty, or a thirst for justice.
So, beware. Let "I know", not "I think" precede any action. .Pat
Lost Sheep
New member
Unlikely to have made a difference
I can only imagine that if the 160+ people in that club had all been armed, the outcome would have been a lot different.
Of course, a bunch of people mixing with alcohol would probably result in a few shootings on an individual basis now and then. (As long as I am speculating, I might as well look at the down side, also.)
Of course, Florida law prohibits carrying a firearm where alcohol is served. That made Pulse a target-rich, gun free zone. No need to pass nationwide gun control to facilitate mass murder.
The point I am trying to make is that disarming our Nation is an unrealistically simplistic solution and arming everyone is also unrealistically simplistic.
H. L. Mencken probabaly said it best, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
Lost Sheep
I can only imagine that if the 160+ people in that club had all been armed, the outcome would have been a lot different.
Of course, a bunch of people mixing with alcohol would probably result in a few shootings on an individual basis now and then. (As long as I am speculating, I might as well look at the down side, also.)
Of course, Florida law prohibits carrying a firearm where alcohol is served. That made Pulse a target-rich, gun free zone. No need to pass nationwide gun control to facilitate mass murder.
The point I am trying to make is that disarming our Nation is an unrealistically simplistic solution and arming everyone is also unrealistically simplistic.
H. L. Mencken probabaly said it best, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
Lost Sheep
sniper 51 said:
While I admire your commitment, it does seem rather strange to me to deny yourself the right to vote, medical care, or attending school functions involving your kids/grandkids just so you can carry a gun.
South Carolina Title 23-31-215, handgun permits:
http://scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.php
I am from Ohio where you can carry in bars but can not drink. Last night I was at a farewell party for a friend who is moving out of state at a brewery that serves great food with 30 people attending. It was interesting that only about six people were drinking beer. That was because everyone else was armed because the honoree is a three gun competitor and the rest of us were shooters in tactical handgun leagues. Every CCW holder there shoots at least 3,000 rounds a year and would have engaged a shooter if there was an opportunity.
When there is a shooter people act like a school of fish around a feeding shark, they leave, which opens a space around the shooter. This will give a armed good guy the opportunity to identify the shooter and engage him. There are lots of variables such as if there are people behind the shooter in the line of your fire but if the shooter is mowing people down do you take the shot or wait until you have the perfect shot even if it means 20 or 30 more people are shot? If the shooter is starting to point his weapon in your direction do you take the shot or wait until you are in his sights as he doesn't care if there are people behind you? By the way you can shoot an active shooter in the back legally as he has proven peoples lives are in danger.
In Orlando why didn't the cop outside press on into the club to engage the shooter again? If he had could it might have slowed the shooter down until the nearby cops could have engaged him. Why were there not more exits in the club?
Most police are terrible shots and quite a few have problems qualifying contrary to popular belief. Some are great shots but they are not the norm. In Ohio they dumbed down the police quals because of budgetary costs and the recent ammo shortage limited training.
When there is a shooter people act like a school of fish around a feeding shark, they leave, which opens a space around the shooter. This will give a armed good guy the opportunity to identify the shooter and engage him. There are lots of variables such as if there are people behind the shooter in the line of your fire but if the shooter is mowing people down do you take the shot or wait until you have the perfect shot even if it means 20 or 30 more people are shot? If the shooter is starting to point his weapon in your direction do you take the shot or wait until you are in his sights as he doesn't care if there are people behind you? By the way you can shoot an active shooter in the back legally as he has proven peoples lives are in danger.
In Orlando why didn't the cop outside press on into the club to engage the shooter again? If he had could it might have slowed the shooter down until the nearby cops could have engaged him. Why were there not more exits in the club?
Most police are terrible shots and quite a few have problems qualifying contrary to popular belief. Some are great shots but they are not the norm. In Ohio they dumbed down the police quals because of budgetary costs and the recent ammo shortage limited training.
Not true - read the statute
That's nice for your little close-knit group, but does not apply to a large nightclub. I would venture that 95%+ of gun owners and those who carry will not shoot that amount in a lifetime. Most folks are worried about their own skin (and that of their immediate family), and in the mass hysteria and confusion that happened, it is highly doubtful a clear shot could have been made without killing others nearby.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
A survey a few years in TX found that 80% of CHLs (as it was called then) didn't carry most of the time. They wanted cover for the mostly useless 'truck' gun if they were stopped.
Of the CHLs and LTCs I know, most never do anything but shooting a few times at the square range. Of course, there are folks who do train and/or have relevant military experience.
Bill Clinton said today that armed folks would have just shot innocents. One way to argue with that is to get some decent training. Have untrained people saved the day sometimes, yes. Have untrained people screwed up (and got themselves killed) - yes.
Training is better.
Of the CHLs and LTCs I know, most never do anything but shooting a few times at the square range. Of course, there are folks who do train and/or have relevant military experience.
Bill Clinton said today that armed folks would have just shot innocents. One way to argue with that is to get some decent training. Have untrained people saved the day sometimes, yes. Have untrained people screwed up (and got themselves killed) - yes.
Training is better.
swede4198 said:
100% true. I couldn't agree with you more.
Unfortunately, most civilian gun owners are so horrifically bad that they make the cops look good. At least the cops have to prove they're minimally competent by qualifying once or twice a year. Typically one or two out of 20 will have trouble qualifying.
I used to run an IDPA match and throw in a P.O.S.T. (Peace Officer Standards and Training) qualifying course every few months at a local range. The POST course is ridiculously easy. But my experience with civilian shooters was that the vast majority couldn't even come close to qualifying, I was lucky to see one or two out of twenty qualify.
Louisiana POST Course starts on page 55 here if anyone wants to try it. Summary image is attached. My experience with typical civilian shooters is that the 25 and 15 yard stages eat their lunch.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...sg=AFQjCNHm_UHYilAkODNFDqX5EET76_YzJw&cad=rja
On the other hand, the qualification course for a Louisiana CCW is fired at 2, 3 and 5 yards, 12 rounds each, no time limit, and the only scoring requirement is that all rounds hit within the silhouette portion of a B-27 target. Typically about a third of CCW applicants (new shooters in most cases) have difficulty even with that.
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As one of the dead guys, I could meet my maker knowing that two of us died saving countless others as opposed to watching him stack up a body count just to be sure the police could identify the right guy.
Under the circumstances in this case, I think I might have focused on the guy with the long gun who was continuously rapid firing as the perp. It took quite some time before the police took him out, so I might have gotten by without getting shot by police or not. Sometimes we have to decide how much we are willing to risk for others.
The terrorist shot 100+ people. If after the first 50 were shot, and your scenario played out, I'm still seeing a net gain of 50 not getting shot, and just because I didn't end up on the fortunate side, I would consider it as my life well spent.
Very true.
I'm of the opinion that in a dark room packed with intoxicated people, probably with loud music and flashing lights, it would have been a challenge locating the shooter. The noise would have been deafening and the rifle rounds would have been slicing right through multiple people. Anyone near the shooter would probably have been running the other way which means you would have to fight your way through a rush of people to get to the shooter. Getting a clear shot from across the room sounds extremely unlikely under the circumstances.
Sure, someone with a gun who happened to be near the shooter could have drawn and shot him. That's certainly possible.
I'm all for concealed carry but I recognize that there are situations where a firearm is likely to make a big difference, and there are situations where it's not likely to.
Another way of looking at it.
A whole lot of folks in times past received their draft notices.Perhaps with reluctance,they showed up.They were not driven by Walter Mitty hero fantasies.
They received some training.Training may have been good to poor.Is it ever really enough?
Some of them ended up in a Higgins boat ,dropping the ramp on Omaha Beach.
Or on Hamburger Hill.
To be in that club with a CCW might well have been a lot like being in the first wave of troops on Omaha Beach ,with darn little cover,open ground to cross,and well emplaced,co-ordinated machine guns killing everyone.
It might be argued that an everday,drafted infantryman with an M-1 Garand,of modest but not exceptional skills,scared,disoriented,seeing people die all around him,maybe even wounded....didn't have very good odds.
We might armchair declare he did not have a chance.
We might suggest his best bet would be "Ditch this!!.I'm just going to look out for me."
But somehow that Troop with his rifle made it across that open beach,to the sea wall,pushed the Bangalore torpedo through the wire,blew it,and broke through.
Reading many of the comments here,it is apparent that the character of the Greatest Generation is pretty much dead in America.
There is the negative"Doesn't have a chance"crowd.There is the"Too bad for you,I just look out for me" crowd.
And a few. The few,who make a difference
A whole lot of folks in times past received their draft notices.Perhaps with reluctance,they showed up.They were not driven by Walter Mitty hero fantasies.
They received some training.Training may have been good to poor.Is it ever really enough?
Some of them ended up in a Higgins boat ,dropping the ramp on Omaha Beach.
Or on Hamburger Hill.
To be in that club with a CCW might well have been a lot like being in the first wave of troops on Omaha Beach ,with darn little cover,open ground to cross,and well emplaced,co-ordinated machine guns killing everyone.
It might be argued that an everday,drafted infantryman with an M-1 Garand,of modest but not exceptional skills,scared,disoriented,seeing people die all around him,maybe even wounded....didn't have very good odds.
We might armchair declare he did not have a chance.
We might suggest his best bet would be "Ditch this!!.I'm just going to look out for me."
But somehow that Troop with his rifle made it across that open beach,to the sea wall,pushed the Bangalore torpedo through the wire,blew it,and broke through.
Reading many of the comments here,it is apparent that the character of the Greatest Generation is pretty much dead in America.
There is the negative"Doesn't have a chance"crowd.There is the"Too bad for you,I just look out for me" crowd.
And a few. The few,who make a difference
Double Naught Spy
New member
Well, we all want to feel noble when we die, but that it just a lot of bravado until it happens. Not all CCWs like Mark Wilson are fortunate enough to have some glorious heroic end, dying fairly quickly and being given credit for saving a lot of lives there on the little square in Tyler, Texas. Some like Dan McKown (who yelled at the shooter instead of trying to shoot him [Seattle mall]) are crippled for life or like Byron Wilson (streets of Houston) may or may not walk again without the use of prosthetic devices and then only after many surgeries (several down, several to go), and literally years of recovery and physical therapy. The expected expenses, loss of income, familial hardships, etc. will be astounding. Sure, he is a hero, but his fight has really just started.
So when we talk about being comfortable with the notion of dying a hero, knowing we saved lives (not sure Mark Wilson knew this or not), it is important to understand that such ideals are fairly romantic and and fail to take in the totality of potential outcomes which can be pretty terrible, not to mention potential future costs involved. A quick heroic death may not be a luxury you are granted.
If any of you want to support Byron Wilson, the CCW who tried to stop the Houston mass shooter in May, he could still use a lot money. https://www.gofundme.com/HelpByronRecover
Don't get me wrong here. I am all for fighting back, but let's get off this silly self glorification of how good we will look if we do and calling people names if they don't and consider realities of resolving the problems at hand.
All situations are going to be different and resolution isn't as simple as just having a gun and shooting the bad guy. There are all sorts of inherent risks involved and the outcomes are not assured. More over, many such shootings are stopped by people who don't have guns as well. Just because the shooter has a gun doesn't mean he isn't vulnerable. People tend to forget this.
Many mass shooters have been taken down during reloads, such as Loughner and this attempted mass shooter who was continuing his rampage at Seattle Pacific University when "student security monitor" Jon Meis countered the gunman during a reload with nothing more than pepper spray and his physical being, spraying, tackling, disarming, removing the gun, and then securing the gunman until help arrived. This video has a very good pro-fighting message. Remember, just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean that you can't be a force with which to be reckoned. http://q13fox.com/2016/06/14/video-...-in-2014-seattle-pacific-university-shooting/
If you have a gun, so much the better. Use it wisely.
So when we talk about being comfortable with the notion of dying a hero, knowing we saved lives (not sure Mark Wilson knew this or not), it is important to understand that such ideals are fairly romantic and and fail to take in the totality of potential outcomes which can be pretty terrible, not to mention potential future costs involved. A quick heroic death may not be a luxury you are granted.
If any of you want to support Byron Wilson, the CCW who tried to stop the Houston mass shooter in May, he could still use a lot money. https://www.gofundme.com/HelpByronRecover
Don't get me wrong here. I am all for fighting back, but let's get off this silly self glorification of how good we will look if we do and calling people names if they don't and consider realities of resolving the problems at hand.
All situations are going to be different and resolution isn't as simple as just having a gun and shooting the bad guy. There are all sorts of inherent risks involved and the outcomes are not assured. More over, many such shootings are stopped by people who don't have guns as well. Just because the shooter has a gun doesn't mean he isn't vulnerable. People tend to forget this.
Many mass shooters have been taken down during reloads, such as Loughner and this attempted mass shooter who was continuing his rampage at Seattle Pacific University when "student security monitor" Jon Meis countered the gunman during a reload with nothing more than pepper spray and his physical being, spraying, tackling, disarming, removing the gun, and then securing the gunman until help arrived. This video has a very good pro-fighting message. Remember, just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean that you can't be a force with which to be reckoned. http://q13fox.com/2016/06/14/video-...-in-2014-seattle-pacific-university-shooting/
If you have a gun, so much the better. Use it wisely.
I'm sure there are an infinite number of arguments to do nothing.
I certainly agree,making claims to courage before the moment is BS.
Talk is cheap.
I have had my moments that I regret.
I also have been unarmed when a former resident of the Nebraska State Pen had been drinking rye and eating hallucinogenic mushrooms.He fell through a glass door and cut himself up pretty badly.Trying to help him resulted in me having a cocked and locked Mini14 pressed against my skull.
I said "Itsa good day to die.Before I do,I will drink one more of your beers" I walked to the refrigerator,popped a top,took a drink,and looked him in the eyes.
I'm still here.I never will forget saying "Its a good day to die"
I had an up close and personal situation with a bear in Alaska that hurt my wife.It began with me whacking the bear across the face and telling him to leave,It ended with me focusing on the white bead on my shotgun andseeing the internal anatomy of the bear that I wanted to break.
It was a melee,and I know the rush of an enemy dead at my feet.
I've worked drownings,car wrecks,and folks who were just old and dying.Including doing CPR on a guy for two hours.He stayed pink.(I did have help).He kept upchucking his breakfast.I had to just spit and keep on.
I do not claim courage in those events.I claim they made a difference in what I know.
My image of courage has to do with a quiet woman who was a single mom who just got up and faced raising her kids every day .
Before that,March 1943 she was an army Nurse in Bizerte.Then Sicily,and on to Naples.
Not Rambo.
She once told me that when wounded soldiers were triaged off to the side to die,she would hold the min her arms as they died.
That is my idea of courage.
I know its not so much the gun.Its just a tool.
Pretty good one.
Jeanne Assam took on a killer using her handgun against a killer with an AR-15 in a church.She put him down.What do you have to say about that?.
I know that after Sandy Hook,as an elementary school custodian,if someone came in to the school to kill kids...I'd have the words "Its a good day to die" in my head.
The best those teachers could do at sandy Hook for those kids is soak up bullets with their own bodies.
Anyone with the courage to do that has the courage to fight if they have the means.
A wiki of how one woman with a handgun stopped a mass killer with an AR-15
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
I certainly agree,making claims to courage before the moment is BS.
Talk is cheap.
I have had my moments that I regret.
I also have been unarmed when a former resident of the Nebraska State Pen had been drinking rye and eating hallucinogenic mushrooms.He fell through a glass door and cut himself up pretty badly.Trying to help him resulted in me having a cocked and locked Mini14 pressed against my skull.
I said "Itsa good day to die.Before I do,I will drink one more of your beers" I walked to the refrigerator,popped a top,took a drink,and looked him in the eyes.
I'm still here.I never will forget saying "Its a good day to die"
I had an up close and personal situation with a bear in Alaska that hurt my wife.It began with me whacking the bear across the face and telling him to leave,It ended with me focusing on the white bead on my shotgun andseeing the internal anatomy of the bear that I wanted to break.
It was a melee,and I know the rush of an enemy dead at my feet.
I've worked drownings,car wrecks,and folks who were just old and dying.Including doing CPR on a guy for two hours.He stayed pink.(I did have help).He kept upchucking his breakfast.I had to just spit and keep on.
I do not claim courage in those events.I claim they made a difference in what I know.
My image of courage has to do with a quiet woman who was a single mom who just got up and faced raising her kids every day .
Before that,March 1943 she was an army Nurse in Bizerte.Then Sicily,and on to Naples.
Not Rambo.
She once told me that when wounded soldiers were triaged off to the side to die,she would hold the min her arms as they died.
That is my idea of courage.
I know its not so much the gun.Its just a tool.
Pretty good one.
Jeanne Assam took on a killer using her handgun against a killer with an AR-15 in a church.She put him down.What do you have to say about that?.
I know that after Sandy Hook,as an elementary school custodian,if someone came in to the school to kill kids...I'd have the words "Its a good day to die" in my head.
The best those teachers could do at sandy Hook for those kids is soak up bullets with their own bodies.
Anyone with the courage to do that has the courage to fight if they have the means.
A wiki of how one woman with a handgun stopped a mass killer with an AR-15
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
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