Concealed Handguns vs Orlando terrorism last night
- Thread starter TXAZ
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Double Naught Spy
New member
Really? We can do a comparison of mass shootings (4 or more people shot other than the bad guy) of gun free zone and non-free zones and I believe you will find that lots more people are killed in mass evens in non-gun free zones. Probably the most common type is the simple drive-by shooting in public locations or out on the streets. They don't garner the media coverage and fewer people care, relegating them to being gang-related and hence not affecting their lives, but there are plenty of such that quality as mass shootings.
And add fuel to a raging fire isn't the best idea either.............
How many folks here are ALWAYS screaming how even one drink at a gun club and they would cancel their membership? And you want everyone at a bar to be carrying? Sorry, I disagree. Mass shootings are horrible and .000000001% of the problem. Having every gang banger and redneck yahoo carrying every Friday and Saturday night at every bar is only going to mass control that much easier to implement when these idiots start settling their drunken arguments with lethal results.
How many folks here are ALWAYS screaming how even one drink at a gun club and they would cancel their membership? And you want everyone at a bar to be carrying? Sorry, I disagree. Mass shootings are horrible and .000000001% of the problem. Having every gang banger and redneck yahoo carrying every Friday and Saturday night at every bar is only going to mass control that much easier to implement when these idiots start settling their drunken arguments with lethal results.
I never said everyone should carry in bars.
here in Oregon its legal to carry in bars. Its also legal to drink when carrying.... weve never had any problems. Why is that?
if you guys are concerned about mixing drunks with guns then pass an .08 BAC law and leave the choice to be armed with the responsible individuals who often choose to be a designated driver.
here in Oregon its legal to carry in bars. Its also legal to drink when carrying.... weve never had any problems. Why is that?
if you guys are concerned about mixing drunks with guns then pass an .08 BAC law and leave the choice to be armed with the responsible individuals who often choose to be a designated driver.
Cosmodragoon
New member
Liberty is a scary thing, Koda94. The idea of personal responsibility being the only thing between us and anarchy terrifies a lot of people. After all, what's to stop a person from driving their car through a crowd, swinging a hatchet around in the local malt shop, or hiding homemade explosives at popular sporting events? If we didn't make laws to keep guns out of bars or force people to get special pieces of paper before carrying a gun, the streets would run red with blood. It would be bedlam, just like in the savage state of Vermont where they let sixteen-year-olds carry without a license!
exactly. I like the sarcasm Cosmo...
I wonder how many gun rights supporters here that think we should create laws prohibiting carry in bars but also think we shouldn't have to get a permit for our "constitutional carry" right?
How many gun owners here that have CCW permits but have never taken a defensive handgun class? You get to tell people they cant be responsible enough to carry in a bar and stay sober but nobody can tell you that you need to pass a certified training class before you can carry.
Ironic isn't it.
Folks, our rights are being swept away from under us every day and we don't need any more gun control laws. The Orlando shooting is just one example of gun control that gets people killed. Luby's cafe is another. Umpqua CC is another, Newtown, Columbine, Aurora the list goes on... all gun free zones created by gun control politicians. The Second Amendment was put in place specifically to give the people the ability to defend themselves from enemies both foreign and domestic. The tide of violence is turning for America and we need our Second Amendment right now more than ever and the only way that works is to give lawful citizens the right to exercise that daily. In order for that to work there can be no restrictions on law abiding citizens going about their normal daily routine... work, school including your children's, socializing (bars), shopping.... Gun owners need to be unified and steadfast in opposing all prohibitions that prevent them from exercising their Second Amendment rights.
I wonder how many gun rights supporters here that think we should create laws prohibiting carry in bars but also think we shouldn't have to get a permit for our "constitutional carry" right?
How many gun owners here that have CCW permits but have never taken a defensive handgun class? You get to tell people they cant be responsible enough to carry in a bar and stay sober but nobody can tell you that you need to pass a certified training class before you can carry.
Ironic isn't it.
Folks, our rights are being swept away from under us every day and we don't need any more gun control laws. The Orlando shooting is just one example of gun control that gets people killed. Luby's cafe is another. Umpqua CC is another, Newtown, Columbine, Aurora the list goes on... all gun free zones created by gun control politicians. The Second Amendment was put in place specifically to give the people the ability to defend themselves from enemies both foreign and domestic. The tide of violence is turning for America and we need our Second Amendment right now more than ever and the only way that works is to give lawful citizens the right to exercise that daily. In order for that to work there can be no restrictions on law abiding citizens going about their normal daily routine... work, school including your children's, socializing (bars), shopping.... Gun owners need to be unified and steadfast in opposing all prohibitions that prevent them from exercising their Second Amendment rights.
It may vary by states,I live in Colorado.
You have to have a CCW permit to carry.
You can carry in a bar.
Technically,you can consume a very limited amount of alchohol.You must stay below a .04 impaired level,but an officer may take your permit without a BAC.Its an officer discretion thing.
My CCW class advised "Just don't"
After applying for my permit,I was fingerprinted and background checked for 90 days before I received my permit.
I'm not going to research to find law to quote,but Im pretty sure if I had any DUI,DWAI,or history of getting into fights,my permit would have been denied.
As I understand it,if I get an alchohol related driving violation,I lose my CCW,whether I am carrying or not.
As I should,because it demonstrates I cannot be trusted to be responsible with alchohol.
I think most folks,upon receiving their CCW,do a little introspection."This is serious.It comes with responsibilities" And assume a code of behavior.
We say ,to the offered drink"Thank you for the offer,but I'm driving"
We tend to be more conscious of courtesy.
There is something to "An armed society is a polite society" and "Where guns are outlawed,only outlaws have guns"
In any case,I just heard on my radio the number of CCW applications has doubled this year.CBI reports 31,900 applications in the first five months this year in CO.
My local sheriff went "shall issue" after 9-11.There are a lot of permit holders here.Its quite peaceful.The quaking nannies predicting wild west shootouts were wrong.
Now,in contrast,Chicago...
You have to have a CCW permit to carry.
You can carry in a bar.
Technically,you can consume a very limited amount of alchohol.You must stay below a .04 impaired level,but an officer may take your permit without a BAC.Its an officer discretion thing.
My CCW class advised "Just don't"
After applying for my permit,I was fingerprinted and background checked for 90 days before I received my permit.
I'm not going to research to find law to quote,but Im pretty sure if I had any DUI,DWAI,or history of getting into fights,my permit would have been denied.
As I understand it,if I get an alchohol related driving violation,I lose my CCW,whether I am carrying or not.
As I should,because it demonstrates I cannot be trusted to be responsible with alchohol.
I think most folks,upon receiving their CCW,do a little introspection."This is serious.It comes with responsibilities" And assume a code of behavior.
We say ,to the offered drink"Thank you for the offer,but I'm driving"
We tend to be more conscious of courtesy.
There is something to "An armed society is a polite society" and "Where guns are outlawed,only outlaws have guns"
In any case,I just heard on my radio the number of CCW applications has doubled this year.CBI reports 31,900 applications in the first five months this year in CO.
My local sheriff went "shall issue" after 9-11.There are a lot of permit holders here.Its quite peaceful.The quaking nannies predicting wild west shootouts were wrong.
Now,in contrast,Chicago...
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Cosmodragoon
New member
Setting aside the sarcasm in my previous comment, remember that people tend to be just as responsible and things tend to be just as safe (if not safer) in places where such laws, restrictions, regulations, and penalties aren't imposed upon the people. I joked that Vermont's only restriction on carry is that you be at least sixteen years of age but that's generally been the fact for a very long time and the record stands, adjusted for population and even against sneaky tactics like counting suicides as "gun violence". It remains this way and we all help to keep it that way by making real safety and education part of the activity.
That said, we need to be sure that steadfast preservation of the right itself is part of the package. So please think twice about the "as I should" because it's still gun control. It's still a cut from the right. It's still part of a registration and licensing scheme. It's still saying "thank God we have this bit of gun control".
Double Naught Spy
New member
NO there really isn't. It is an ignorant quote from a fictional work about a society where people live in FEAR that they will have to use guns to protect themselves after mispeaking because somebody may try to kill them.
Cosmodragoon, your statement that Liberty is a scary thing is accurate if personal responsibility is all that separates us from anarchy. While I would agree that personal responsibility is an essential component of our system, it is our Constitution and the rule of law defined and enabled by it that is the foundation for liberty. Without the rule of law there is chaos, and real liberty is not possible. Even in Vermont, where personal responsibility and liberty are highly esteemed, without the rule of law chaos would quickly reign.
Tocqueville put it this way:
There is a twofold liberty, natural (I mean as our nature is now corrupt) and civil or federal. The first is common to man with beasts and other creatures. By this, man, as he stands in relation to man simply, hath liberty to do what he lists; it is a liberty to evil as well as to good. This liberty is incompatible and inconsistent with authority, and cannot endure the least restrain of the most just authority. The exercise and maintaining of this liberty makes men grow more evil, and in time to be worse than brute beasts: omnes sumus licentia deteriores. This is that great enemy of truth and peace, that wild beast, which all the ordinances of God are bent against, to restrain and subdue it. The other kind of liberty I call civil or federal; it may also be termed moral, in reference to the covenant between God and man, in the moral law, and the politic covenants and constitutions, among men themselves. This liberty is the proper end and object of authority, and cannot subsist without it; and it is a liberty to that only which is good, just, and honest. This liberty you are to stand for, with the hazard not only of your goods, but of your lives, if need be.
Tocqueville put it this way:
There is a twofold liberty, natural (I mean as our nature is now corrupt) and civil or federal. The first is common to man with beasts and other creatures. By this, man, as he stands in relation to man simply, hath liberty to do what he lists; it is a liberty to evil as well as to good. This liberty is incompatible and inconsistent with authority, and cannot endure the least restrain of the most just authority. The exercise and maintaining of this liberty makes men grow more evil, and in time to be worse than brute beasts: omnes sumus licentia deteriores. This is that great enemy of truth and peace, that wild beast, which all the ordinances of God are bent against, to restrain and subdue it. The other kind of liberty I call civil or federal; it may also be termed moral, in reference to the covenant between God and man, in the moral law, and the politic covenants and constitutions, among men themselves. This liberty is the proper end and object of authority, and cannot subsist without it; and it is a liberty to that only which is good, just, and honest. This liberty you are to stand for, with the hazard not only of your goods, but of your lives, if need be.
Which might boil down to:
The price of Liberty is Responsibility.
If I say that my own irresponsibility may rightly cost me my Liberty,I am not making an assault on Liberty.I am owning the consequence of my irresponsibility.
Our Liberty to RTKBA and to carry concealed is under constant assault.To preserve that Liberty,some guidelines for responsible behavior must be in place.
If my relationship with alchohol,safety,responsibility and the law is such that through my own actions,I receive a DUI,I have demonstrated that the State cannot trust me with a driver's license.
It is not unreasonable to make the assumption that I would not make better decisions with alchohol and firearms.
I did not suggest a DUI should remove a person's right to possess firearms,but it certainly calls into question a concealed carry permit.
FWIW,my state just put into law that a 3rd DUI offense is a felony.
A felon is a prohibited person from owning a firearm. Drinking and driving can cost you your RTKBA.
Maybe you disagree with that.OK.
We can only keep our RTKBA if the vast majority of us maintain safe,responsible,lawful,civilized behavior.
Those of us who treasure our 2A must also not tolerate unsafe,irresponsible,unlawful,uncivilized behavior.
As we well know,right now,today,it all hangs by a thread.
The price of Liberty is Responsibility.
If I say that my own irresponsibility may rightly cost me my Liberty,I am not making an assault on Liberty.I am owning the consequence of my irresponsibility.
Our Liberty to RTKBA and to carry concealed is under constant assault.To preserve that Liberty,some guidelines for responsible behavior must be in place.
If my relationship with alchohol,safety,responsibility and the law is such that through my own actions,I receive a DUI,I have demonstrated that the State cannot trust me with a driver's license.
It is not unreasonable to make the assumption that I would not make better decisions with alchohol and firearms.
I did not suggest a DUI should remove a person's right to possess firearms,but it certainly calls into question a concealed carry permit.
FWIW,my state just put into law that a 3rd DUI offense is a felony.
A felon is a prohibited person from owning a firearm. Drinking and driving can cost you your RTKBA.
Maybe you disagree with that.OK.
We can only keep our RTKBA if the vast majority of us maintain safe,responsible,lawful,civilized behavior.
Those of us who treasure our 2A must also not tolerate unsafe,irresponsible,unlawful,uncivilized behavior.
As we well know,right now,today,it all hangs by a thread.
I know its contrary to current law but Im of the position that not all felony crimes should restrict our constitutional rights.
I have to respectfully disagree with this in the sense that the vast majority of gun owners in America are safe, responsible, lawful and civilized yet we are losing our rights every day. Remember we are being punished by the actions of a few criminals. We can only keep, what’s left of, our rights if we fight against any more gun control laws. We are way past the point of legislating personal accountability.
Well said Cosmodragoon...
I am adamantly opposed to even one more ratchet click of restriction.We already have too many laws.
I am not suggesting giving up any more.I firmly believe the 2A should stand as written by our Founders.We agree on the preservation of Liberty.
I do not concede that ANY incident of criminal violence justifies compromising the Bill of Rights.I do not support the Patriot act or any of the compromises to the 4th Amendment post 9-11.
We agree on what SHOULD be.
But the FACT is,one murdering jerk's actions have riled up a fervor of political activity to restrict or remove that Liberty.
Fact is,our Constitution is held in disdain by many citizens,Congressmen,even some Presidents and Supreme Court Justices.
"We have given you a Republic....IF you can keep it"
And that comes down to you and me.
If you (and I ) are not politically active in electing those who stand for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,You and I are responsible for the loss of Liberty.
If you and I act in a way that discredits gun owners,you and I raise the political pressure to destroy Liberty.
I agree,that SHOULD not be the case,Liberty should remain unscathed,and the bad guy should rot in prison.
But what is true?
Are you suggesting that no amount of bad behavior on my part should jeopardize my carry permit or RTKBA?
If I have a history of getting drunk in bars,losing my temper over something as important as a game,and doing beat downs,jumping in my pickup and getting in a drag race,then getting pulled over with a BAC of .27...
Do you really think I should keep my permit to carry a deadly weapon?
IMO,I do not think fearful people should be able to take the rights of another law abiding individual.Example,a Veteran with some degree of PTSD.
Who made up our Greatest Generation? Veterans who saw combat and came home before they made up the term "PTSD"
Fear needs to be owned by the fearful,not the feared.
In large part,due process is an element.The consequences of being tried and convicted of DUI may include loss of CCW.
In contrast,the sober,responsible,armed citizen who may be sipping iced tea with friends in a bar is not a threat,even if some nanny thinks he is.He actually may well counter a killer.
He should not be disarmed by those who fear guns.
I am not suggesting giving up any more.I firmly believe the 2A should stand as written by our Founders.We agree on the preservation of Liberty.
I do not concede that ANY incident of criminal violence justifies compromising the Bill of Rights.I do not support the Patriot act or any of the compromises to the 4th Amendment post 9-11.
We agree on what SHOULD be.
But the FACT is,one murdering jerk's actions have riled up a fervor of political activity to restrict or remove that Liberty.
Fact is,our Constitution is held in disdain by many citizens,Congressmen,even some Presidents and Supreme Court Justices.
"We have given you a Republic....IF you can keep it"
And that comes down to you and me.
If you (and I ) are not politically active in electing those who stand for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,You and I are responsible for the loss of Liberty.
If you and I act in a way that discredits gun owners,you and I raise the political pressure to destroy Liberty.
I agree,that SHOULD not be the case,Liberty should remain unscathed,and the bad guy should rot in prison.
But what is true?
Are you suggesting that no amount of bad behavior on my part should jeopardize my carry permit or RTKBA?
If I have a history of getting drunk in bars,losing my temper over something as important as a game,and doing beat downs,jumping in my pickup and getting in a drag race,then getting pulled over with a BAC of .27...
Do you really think I should keep my permit to carry a deadly weapon?
IMO,I do not think fearful people should be able to take the rights of another law abiding individual.Example,a Veteran with some degree of PTSD.
Who made up our Greatest Generation? Veterans who saw combat and came home before they made up the term "PTSD"
Fear needs to be owned by the fearful,not the feared.
In large part,due process is an element.The consequences of being tried and convicted of DUI may include loss of CCW.
In contrast,the sober,responsible,armed citizen who may be sipping iced tea with friends in a bar is not a threat,even if some nanny thinks he is.He actually may well counter a killer.
He should not be disarmed by those who fear guns.
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