Concealed carry in church???
- Thread starter Senator
- Start date
Phil Degraves
New member
I carry all the time. I have carried so often for so long that I feel like I am not dressed without it. I carry in church (when i go) and no one knows except me. Even the Disciples carried swords with them. Two of them had swords when Christ was arrested.
Jeff Thomas
New member
Anyone who would object to an honest parishioner carrying in church needs to do a better job of keeping up with the news. And, how do we know he / she is an honest parishioner? Well, they're the person who actually would ponder carrying in church. The BG won't consider that question for a moment.
IMHO, the priest / preacher / rabbi, etc. should feel more comfortable if some of his trusted flock are armed and ready to protect themselves and the congregation.
Actually, the appropriate moral question might be whether it is immoral not to carry in church when one is properly trained and equipped. If there is a question in anyone's mind about that answer, consider how you would feel if a nutcase entered your church, and you lived to remember what he did, and how you could do nothing to stop him. Allowing such violence when one is capable of ending it seems the much greater immorality to me.
IMHO, the priest / preacher / rabbi, etc. should feel more comfortable if some of his trusted flock are armed and ready to protect themselves and the congregation.
Actually, the appropriate moral question might be whether it is immoral not to carry in church when one is properly trained and equipped. If there is a question in anyone's mind about that answer, consider how you would feel if a nutcase entered your church, and you lived to remember what he did, and how you could do nothing to stop him. Allowing such violence when one is capable of ending it seems the much greater immorality to me.
RiflesSaltedWound
Inactive
Doc: I wish I could bring "ol' Brownie" where ever i go but guns are not allowed in banks here(i've always thought this applies to all the banks around the world. Correct me if i am wrong)
There was a time too that there was one lady who tried to leave her pistol with the guard before entering the bank and the bastard guard shot her with a 12g shotgun at point-blank range. He later reports that she pointed the gun at him and he took action ( maybe he thought that the .22 derringer contained acid that might go through his kevlar vest-j/k). Nevertheless, it happened. Besides, to rob a bank here there must be at least 4 well-armed people as the banks here are always full and have at least 3 security guards at the door and floor(i wonder if this is a requirement). There never was a report here of a single person or a "duet" that actually tried robbing a bank. If they did..i doubt they could get away.
Let's say I was allowed to bring it inside the bank. What can it do if something happens? They tell you to lie on the floor and give up your valuables, frisk you, find your gun and take it too...might be a hurtful experience if they think you are a law enforcer as well =)
Dont get me wrong. I just would feel safer that way.
M2CI
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Rifle's Salted Wound
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There was a time too that there was one lady who tried to leave her pistol with the guard before entering the bank and the bastard guard shot her with a 12g shotgun at point-blank range. He later reports that she pointed the gun at him and he took action ( maybe he thought that the .22 derringer contained acid that might go through his kevlar vest-j/k). Nevertheless, it happened. Besides, to rob a bank here there must be at least 4 well-armed people as the banks here are always full and have at least 3 security guards at the door and floor(i wonder if this is a requirement). There never was a report here of a single person or a "duet" that actually tried robbing a bank. If they did..i doubt they could get away.
Let's say I was allowed to bring it inside the bank. What can it do if something happens? They tell you to lie on the floor and give up your valuables, frisk you, find your gun and take it too...might be a hurtful experience if they think you are a law enforcer as well =)
Dont get me wrong. I just would feel safer that way.
M2CI
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Rifle's Salted Wound
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cornered rat
Moderator
On carry in banks...a friend visited Israel some five years ago. Said his host carried openly into the bank and responded to the American's concern with "It's OK, they know me here." Perhaps one openly carried pistol was not viewed as much of a threat in the view of so many carried concealed by other patrons?
RSW,
Your profile doesn't let me know where you're from, but:
1) In Texas, a CHL holder can carry in a bank unless the bank posts the state-designed sign saying otherwise. Those little signs with a gun and a red circle and a diagonal line reveal only their opinion. Such signs do NOT constitute "legal notification", per TX Penal Code.
2) As a security officer, if I shot anyone in a bank I would be in deep doo-doo (unless of course the BG was already shooting others).
3) What the heck was a security officer in a bank doing with a shotgun?????
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 23, 1999).]
Your profile doesn't let me know where you're from, but:
1) In Texas, a CHL holder can carry in a bank unless the bank posts the state-designed sign saying otherwise. Those little signs with a gun and a red circle and a diagonal line reveal only their opinion. Such signs do NOT constitute "legal notification", per TX Penal Code.
2) As a security officer, if I shot anyone in a bank I would be in deep doo-doo (unless of course the BG was already shooting others).
3) What the heck was a security officer in a bank doing with a shotgun?????
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 23, 1999).]
As someone who had attended a church that had a murder during the worship service, I can say that carrying a firearms in church is not only not wrong, it should be considered very seriously.
People who plan on commiting acts of violence makes no distinction as to where and when it is "appropriate" to commit those acts.
People who plan on commiting acts of violence makes no distinction as to where and when it is "appropriate" to commit those acts.
Self defense is a God given right and not some creation of man. How then can it be a sin to carry a weapon into church? Ask a Jew about the Commandment about killing. While the King James says, "Thou shalt not kill" the Jewish Torah reads, "Thou shalt not slay." The distinction being the recognized right of self defense against an unlawful aggressor.
BTW, the Catholic Arch Diocese of the city where I live keeps a Python of Hartford breeding. While this is not the Church's endorsement of Colt products, it does show that the Church does recognize that arming oneself as a means for self defense isn't sinful.
BTW, the Catholic Arch Diocese of the city where I live keeps a Python of Hartford breeding. While this is not the Church's endorsement of Colt products, it does show that the Church does recognize that arming oneself as a means for self defense isn't sinful.
David Wright
New member
Senator, wow!
You want a moral perspective only, then...
I have seen nothing in any version of the bible that prohibits weapons carried by the righteous. Peter carried a formidable sword with him in his travels with Jesus. I don't recall Jesus ever saying he should leave it at home. Also greatly misunderstood is the concept of "kill" versus "murder". Some reprints of the Ten Commandments make the distinction of quoting the 6th commandment using the word murder, not kill.(Murder, as defined scripturally, is the shedding of "innocent blood")
In the interest of good diplomacy in action, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to "scare the herd" and let everybody know I was carrying. It's just bad P.R. and gunowners need all the good P.R. we can get!
As an interesting sidenote, I don't carry firearms in church, but I have full knowledge, capability and experience to seriously injure, cripple or kill with my bare hands.
Does this mean I am constanly carrying "deadly weapons"?
You want a moral perspective only, then...
I have seen nothing in any version of the bible that prohibits weapons carried by the righteous. Peter carried a formidable sword with him in his travels with Jesus. I don't recall Jesus ever saying he should leave it at home. Also greatly misunderstood is the concept of "kill" versus "murder". Some reprints of the Ten Commandments make the distinction of quoting the 6th commandment using the word murder, not kill.(Murder, as defined scripturally, is the shedding of "innocent blood")
In the interest of good diplomacy in action, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to "scare the herd" and let everybody know I was carrying. It's just bad P.R. and gunowners need all the good P.R. we can get!
As an interesting sidenote, I don't carry firearms in church, but I have full knowledge, capability and experience to seriously injure, cripple or kill with my bare hands.
Does this mean I am constanly carrying "deadly weapons"?
Here in North Carolina we have several neat terms for weapons and such. A few come to mind.
1 being that you can not carry a handgun (specifically) to a place of "Assembly", I am to assume a that is a fancy way of saying "your Church too bub"
When the children of God rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem they had a sword in one hand and a trowel in the other (the book of Nehemiah).
As far as the moral issue the Bible is clear that God looks on the inward man.....just how concealed is this handgun anyway???
1 being that you can not carry a handgun (specifically) to a place of "Assembly", I am to assume a that is a fancy way of saying "your Church too bub"
When the children of God rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem they had a sword in one hand and a trowel in the other (the book of Nehemiah).
As far as the moral issue the Bible is clear that God looks on the inward man.....just how concealed is this handgun anyway???
Mute,
No offense meant, but if I were going somewhere, anywhere, a murder had been committed, I would feel better knowing I had the means to protect my loved ones and the other good people there who had no means to protect themselves. My weapon will be concealed unless and until we are faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death.
Admittedly, the Killeen Luby's incident colors my thinking - and the thinking of the lady who watched her innocent parents gunned down by a nutcase because she left her gun outside in the car.
I have no problem with you being unarmed. In fact, I would fight for your right to be unarmed or armed - as you wish.
You will have no problem with me being armed because you won't know....
No offense meant, but if I were going somewhere, anywhere, a murder had been committed, I would feel better knowing I had the means to protect my loved ones and the other good people there who had no means to protect themselves. My weapon will be concealed unless and until we are faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death.
Admittedly, the Killeen Luby's incident colors my thinking - and the thinking of the lady who watched her innocent parents gunned down by a nutcase because she left her gun outside in the car.
I have no problem with you being unarmed. In fact, I would fight for your right to be unarmed or armed - as you wish.
You will have no problem with me being armed because you won't know....
Dennis,
I think what Mute posted was a double negative. He said, "I can say that carrying a firearms in church is not only not wrong, it should be considered very seriously."
As I read it, he is saying that carry in a church is not wrong, but that carry in a church should be a serious consideration...In other words, seriously consider doing it.
Was that clear as mud?
Of course, I'll wait for Mute's response!
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John/az
"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
I think what Mute posted was a double negative. He said, "I can say that carrying a firearms in church is not only not wrong, it should be considered very seriously."
As I read it, he is saying that carry in a church is not wrong, but that carry in a church should be a serious consideration...In other words, seriously consider doing it.
Was that clear as mud?
Of course, I'll wait for Mute's response!
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John/az
"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
RiflesSaltedWound
Inactive
Dennis: I am presently residing in Asia, Philippines. All the banks here have signs that says one must deposit his firearm with the guard before entering the bank. I prefer to leave the gun in the car rather than leave it with a stranger.
The incident happened outside the bank in front of its glass doors. But yes the SGs carry shotguns and .38s inside the banks. Some of these morons even hold it in such a way that the muzzle points towards people. This says a lot about the guard who shot that lady...
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The incident happened outside the bank in front of its glass doors. But yes the SGs carry shotguns and .38s inside the banks. Some of these morons even hold it in such a way that the muzzle points towards people. This says a lot about the guard who shot that lady...
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Mute,
A thousand apologies! What you said is crystal clear! How I missed that second "not" is totally beyond me. Sleep deprivation? Bad glasses? Inattentiveness? I really don't know. It sure is clear and easy to read this morning...
Again, I apologize. I mis-read your post and totally misunderstood your position. Sorry.
John,
Thanks for being such a smart cookie that you knew what I meant when I absolutely didn't know what I was talking about. (How's THAT for an opening?)
RSW,
Aha. I've never been to the PI but had friends who were stationed there and volunteered to return - they liked it there. If crime, terrorism or some other threat warrants such protective measures as you describe I can only agree with you that the guards need a lot more training than they appear to have (from your description). Spooky!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 23, 1999).]
A thousand apologies! What you said is crystal clear! How I missed that second "not" is totally beyond me. Sleep deprivation? Bad glasses? Inattentiveness? I really don't know. It sure is clear and easy to read this morning...
Again, I apologize. I mis-read your post and totally misunderstood your position. Sorry.
John,
Thanks for being such a smart cookie that you knew what I meant when I absolutely didn't know what I was talking about. (How's THAT for an opening?)
RSW,
Aha. I've never been to the PI but had friends who were stationed there and volunteered to return - they liked it there. If crime, terrorism or some other threat warrants such protective measures as you describe I can only agree with you that the guards need a lot more training than they appear to have (from your description). Spooky!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 23, 1999).]
Jeff Thomas
New member
If everytime I went to the bank some moron SG pointed the muzzle of a shotgun at me, I assure you I'd be spending much more time in church, and no time at the bank! 
I'm unable to debate the theological implications of concealed carry in church. I will say that officials of both my and my wife's (Christian) denominations have publicly condemned bringing even a lawfully carried gun into church.
Now, my state gives churches the option of posting a "no handguns" sign at their entrance. If they do not post a sign, carry is legal on church premises. My wife's and my churches have never bothered to post a sign, despite their public opposition to guns.
Accordingly, I always carry a pistol to church. Why? Because I believe that, regardless of the details of my state's concealed handgun law, there's a general perception that churches are a gun-free and therefore, to me, self-defense-free zone. Hypothetically, a BG who wanted a nice, safe place to kill people at minimum risk to himself would go to church! The moral atmosphere of a church is not very likely to deter a killer. Hypothetically or otherwise, I don't want my wife and me to be among the fish shot in that particular barrel.
Now, my state gives churches the option of posting a "no handguns" sign at their entrance. If they do not post a sign, carry is legal on church premises. My wife's and my churches have never bothered to post a sign, despite their public opposition to guns.
Accordingly, I always carry a pistol to church. Why? Because I believe that, regardless of the details of my state's concealed handgun law, there's a general perception that churches are a gun-free and therefore, to me, self-defense-free zone. Hypothetically, a BG who wanted a nice, safe place to kill people at minimum risk to himself would go to church! The moral atmosphere of a church is not very likely to deter a killer. Hypothetically or otherwise, I don't want my wife and me to be among the fish shot in that particular barrel.
Dennis,
No apologies needed. As an English honors student, I should know better than to use a double negative even if I meant it.
For the record, I believe that one should ABSOLLUTELY consider carrying even in a church. As I stated in my earlier post, a murder was commited during a worship service. The carnage finally ended when a member in the congregation, an off duty sheriiff's deputy, shot and killed the perpetrator. If he had not been there many more would have been killed.
Even though CCWs are near impossible to obtain in CA, many of us, especially the younger ones, made sure a gun was available at all times after that incident. And yes, I hate to say this, but we did it without CCWs. We felt that the safety of our friends and loved ones was more important than the possible consequences we could have faced. IT IS RIDICULOUS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE HAD TO FACE THAT KIND OF OPTION.
No apologies needed. As an English honors student, I should know better than to use a double negative even if I meant it.
For the record, I believe that one should ABSOLLUTELY consider carrying even in a church. As I stated in my earlier post, a murder was commited during a worship service. The carnage finally ended when a member in the congregation, an off duty sheriiff's deputy, shot and killed the perpetrator. If he had not been there many more would have been killed.
Even though CCWs are near impossible to obtain in CA, many of us, especially the younger ones, made sure a gun was available at all times after that incident. And yes, I hate to say this, but we did it without CCWs. We felt that the safety of our friends and loved ones was more important than the possible consequences we could have faced. IT IS RIDICULOUS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE HAD TO FACE THAT KIND OF OPTION.
Rob Pincus
New member
a few thoughts....
1. It is my understanding that in the U.S. all Federally issued banks (FDIC) are no-gun zones.. regardless of state/local law of CCW permits/restrictions.
2. Jimmy,
If a church is a place to re-affirm your beliefs... why do you continue to go to a chruch that pushes beliefs contrary to your own?
3. For those who look to the bible for guidance on these matters, here is a website detailing the Biblical Grounds for gun ownership:
http://www.wzrd.com/home/ctdonath/Rants/BiblicallyArmed/
4. Personally, I carry in church, when I go. Occassionaly, (when in town..) my wife and I join some members of her family at a "non-denominational" church. (actually, I call them an Elitist Christian Church, bbut that is another story and definely off-topic.)
The preacher not only knows that at least three members of the congregation are armed when my wife, her dad and myself are there, but he has shot (sporting clays/trap) with some of us before. I have never heard him make an anti-gun statement in front of his deep pocketed flock, but he never has endorsed gun ownership either...
5. Scott brought up a good point, if we are all equal in God's eye (a basic tenet of much western religion), why should it be okay for LEOs to carry in church and not every one else??
6. Reading all of the preceeding threads in one sitting made me laugh at the way Banks and Churches are somehow being considered as similar entities. Kinda funny, if you think about it.
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-Essayons
1. It is my understanding that in the U.S. all Federally issued banks (FDIC) are no-gun zones.. regardless of state/local law of CCW permits/restrictions.
2. Jimmy,
If a church is a place to re-affirm your beliefs... why do you continue to go to a chruch that pushes beliefs contrary to your own?
3. For those who look to the bible for guidance on these matters, here is a website detailing the Biblical Grounds for gun ownership:
http://www.wzrd.com/home/ctdonath/Rants/BiblicallyArmed/
4. Personally, I carry in church, when I go. Occassionaly, (when in town..) my wife and I join some members of her family at a "non-denominational" church. (actually, I call them an Elitist Christian Church, bbut that is another story and definely off-topic.)
The preacher not only knows that at least three members of the congregation are armed when my wife, her dad and myself are there, but he has shot (sporting clays/trap) with some of us before. I have never heard him make an anti-gun statement in front of his deep pocketed flock, but he never has endorsed gun ownership either...
5. Scott brought up a good point, if we are all equal in God's eye (a basic tenet of much western religion), why should it be okay for LEOs to carry in church and not every one else??
6. Reading all of the preceeding threads in one sitting made me laugh at the way Banks and Churches are somehow being considered as similar entities. Kinda funny, if you think about it.
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-Essayons
Rob--you ask a good question about attending a church with contrary beliefs. In fact, my wife and I have been discussing this question, not just in regard to firearms but other issues as well. Our situation is problematic, because in some ways we're more "conservative" than our churches, and in other ways we're more "liberal"--suggesting, if nothing else, the shortcomings of such labels. I think that she and I are agreed that there is no church anywhere that will be totally compatible with our moral and ethical principles. We try to balance our beliefs with church doctrine as best we can. There's a limit to our willingness to meet the church halfway, though. If our church posted a "no handguns" sign on its door, that would be the limit for me.
[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited March 24, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited March 24, 1999).]