Concealed carry in church???

S

Senator

New member
The recent church shootings outside of Baton Rouge have brought up the topic of carrying concealed firearms in church. I've discussed this with several friends and co-workers, all of whom feel it is a MORTAL SIN to even THINK about bringing your gun to church. The most suprising thing to me was that even several ardent gun owners (mostly with a hunting mindset - not a personal protection mindset) considered this practice taboo. Quite frankly, I've never given this much thought. When I decided to start carrying a concealed firearm, I decided to carry one with me whenever possible. While I feel no particular threat during a worship service or Sunday school, I've always had the mindset that the very time I needed my gun the most would be the one time that I failed to have it with me.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject. I'm not talking about the legality of it; I want to hear about the morality of it.
 
Senator,
I am a reformed Christian, meaning, I got over it. :D Relax, I'm not going to flame you for your beliefs. Just wanted to get my position clear up front. I make NO judgement concerning the religious matters of other people. I respect their right to decide for themselves just as I ask them to respect my right to decide.
Having said that, I am a former Deacon in the last church I attended and I was the Chaplain of a Boy Scout troop many years ago.
It is my feeling that you're right concerning your statement that the one time you will need your gun is the one time you're not carrying it.
I have to take issue with those people who disapprove of carry in church. Even if I were still a churchgoer, I would say the same.
If it's a mortal sin to carry in church, isn't it a mortal sin anywhere? How can sin be dependant on location? I just don't understand their argument and they are obviously not arguing from a basis of reason, just a funny and indefinable "feeling."
In short, my answer is, If it's moral ANYWHERE, it's moral in church. (It may not be appropriate or socially acceptable, but it's moral.)
PS
Before Rich or Rob say anything about discussing religion here, feel free to email me with any thoughts or questions you may have arising from my statements about my (Lack of) religious beliefs.


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Your mind is your primary weapon.

[This message has been edited by Ken Cook (edited March 20, 1999).]
 
A while back in a garden service held by the little brook of Cedron, a group of armed men disrupted a prayer service. One of the attendees of the service used his licenced carry weapon. Now it could be argued that the guy packing was a Government Agent, since he worked for the tax department prior to this incident, but I believe that he had resigned before this happened. It didn't seem to hurt his standing in the religious community though, as he later became one of the most prominent leaders in the Roman Catholic Church. Here's a link to the story http://www.cforc.com/kjv/John/index.html
Scroll down to Chapter 18.
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A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined;
George Washington Jan 8,1790--There can be no doubt about the Second Amendment.



[This message has been edited by Hal (edited March 20, 1999).]
 
I've always thought no one brings their self defense gear in church. Not because it says "You are not allowed to bring firearms at religious meetings" (mine does) but because of what it can do...Now it got me thinking..Why not? I think you should be able to bring it anywhere( i draw the line at banks and public drinking places where people get drunk tho)
And to give my mind rest: Last week my family and I went to the boonies for a religious tradition. at mass I noticed that the Priest was wearing a shoulder holster and it is visible with the light behind him and with the "gown" he was wearing..If they can bring..well so can I
Like Ken Cook says "If its a s|n here then its a in anywhere."
My 2cents

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Rifle's Salted Wound
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I am a Morman, Considering the amount of mormans that have been killed (murdered) in the 1800's, you'd think it would bother no one. My Bishop knows I carry all the time and has no problem.
He told an other member that was worried about security that I was armed and she had a fit. She though that it was Disrespectful of God to carry a weapon at meetings. I ask her how it was disrespectful to Protect the Fathers Flock, and that if a terrorist wanted to make big spash in the news I couldn't think a better or safer waythan to kill a bunch of unarmed Mormans.
She looked very shocked but had nothing to say.
 
Rifles Salted Wound -Why would you draw the line anywhere at all? Would prohibiting guns in a bank effectively halt bank robberies? (or would the possibility of one or more armed citizens in the bank give pause to the prospective robber?) I carry 100% of the time wherever I go. I am a responsible citizen and that is all the qualification anyone should need. - Doc

[This message has been edited by Doc (edited March 20, 1999).]
 
I agree with the idea that if one makes the decision to be armed then that person should always be armed. Every LEO I know personally is always armed on or off duty, in or out of church. However, I would not make it known. The fewer people that know the better.
 
From my studies as a Christian it is my understanding that God wants a strong and compassionate people, and has never discouraged the use of arms for self-defense, and at times has even commanded their use. I believe that "turning the other cheek" has been as badly abused and misconstrued as the stats that HCI uses! :D It really comes down to the spirit of the law, not the letter, most of the time.

Isn't that why we are judged by a jury of our peers? ;)


Raymond,
Isn't it spelled "Mormon"? ;) E-mail me, I've got a question or two for you.

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited March 20, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited March 20, 1999).]
 
From the Christian standpoint, Christ did evict the money changers from the temple with a whip(?). One has to wonder what he would have done to one attempting to commit a violent crime in that same temple.

From a historical perspective, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>in 1631 [Virginia] required colonists to engage in target practice on Sunday and to "bring their peeces to church."[/quote]
REPORT OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS FEBRUARY 1982

Rich
 
As a resident of the state of Louisiana, let me start by pointing out that churches and other places of worship are a "no-go" zone for legal carry here.
Morality is defined as "a system of conduct, based on principles of right and wrong". As long as I did not intend to hurt, intimidate or coerce anyone by carrying a gun, it would not be technically immoral to bring a gun to church.
Aside from the legality of having a gun in church, at the present time I would probably not feel comfortable doing so. This is more a case of evolution than personal morality for me. My decision to acquire my CCW was based more on my desire to eliminate the hassles of complying with all that Brady nonsense. As a CCW holder, I was "pre-screened" and could purchase a gun anytime without having to go through the background check and endure that damned waiting period. At first, I only carried if I was going over to New Orleans, where there was more crime and I was less "safe". At some point, I read an article (by Ayoob, I think) that stated that if you only carried when you were going into an area that you "thought" was unsafe, you were stupid to go there in the first place. Since then, I carry whenever I go out, unless my destination is one of these "no-go" areas. I have not yet reached the point in my personal evolution where carrying a gun is a natural action. I guess that my biggest concern about bringing one to church would be that I might frighten some nice people if they found out I was armed.
The incident in Gonzales once again pointed out that no place is truly safe. The fact that a law exists did not prevent Shon Miller from entering that church and killing those people. I think that most people view a place of worship as a sanctuary, where they are temporarily safe from the evils of the world. Allowing people to lawfully carry firearms into this sanctuary would remind them that they are not really safe from that evil. And I think that is something that most people are just not equipped to admit to themselves. Ironically, I think that these people probably take more comfort in this false preception of security than in the knowledge that there might be a couple of members in their congregation that are armed and prepared to defend them.
 
I have a question regarding "no-go" places or areas as described by Karanas. The only "no-go" area I visit is the jail. Inside the first set of doors to the jail, is a vestibule that has lockers for officers to store their weapons, Mace, magazines, etc. while they are inside the jail. That is the only "no-go" place I visit. Do these other "no-go" places have adequate weapon storage and are they secure from invaders? If not, where do you store your weapon while in church? Is there a "no-risk" zone between the "no-go" zone for you to traverse while seeking the security of your weapon? I guess I just don't understand.

If a person were considered to be reliable on the street, why wouldn't he/she be considered reliable in church?

I guess I am too old to understand politically correct and why the masses have fallen for it.
 
I see no moral dilemma here.
In the Jewish faith it is a sin not to protect yourself. Christianity has so many offshoots that any one of them will tell you whatever they want....however, I know of nowhere, Old or New Testament that prohibits the means of self-defense while in church or temple.
My own thoughts are that perhaps church is one place where some members should be armed. Excuse the venacular, but typically a church or temple is full of sitting ducks, a perfect target( of devotional passive groups of people) for any nutbar who wants to make the TV news.
As has been mentioned, CC is CC so its not too bright to advertize that you are carrying. I also don't believe God wishes His worshippers to be slaughtered while paying homage.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Well, nobody in my church (nor any of my coworkers, for that matter) knows if I carry or not. I did, however, explain to my coworkers that I found no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. Of course, none of them found the idea of an armed police officer at church objectionable. Sigh...


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Kelly

Deo Vindice
 
Raymond,

It astounds me that a Mormon would question the carrying of arms...anywhere.

You might ask your Bishop to refer the demurring sister to D & C, Ether 14:2; "Wherefore every man did cleave unto that which was his own, with his hands, and would not borrow neither would he lend; and every man kept the hilt of his sword in his right hand in the defence of his property and his own life and of his wives and children."

(Not a Mormon. Just a student in the ways that thinking and moral people organize themselves into communities.)
 
John,

Yes it is spelled Mormon, this one just can't spell worth a hoot.

I attempted to E-MAil you, but this blasted 'puter won't let me access your address from this page Mine is raymondv@netins.net so ask away.

Shortcut,

Ether 14:2 is great, but Ether 14:1 Describes the world today.
I won't copy it as some would object to it, as preaching.
As to why a Mormon would object is easy. We Mormons are no safer from media brainwashing than the next guy. This brings us right back to why the world is like Ether 14:1.


[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited March 21, 1999).]
 
Here's and interesting link for those of you who are unsure as to what position God might take on the issue of Concealed Carry and church.

http://www.gunowners.org/fs9505.htm

[This message has been edited by HM3 (edited March 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by HM3 (edited March 21, 1999).]
 
In response to Doc's inquiry about "no-go" areas, these are places that are listed in the legal code that bar entry with a firearm.
I imagine they vary from place to place. I know that on a federal level you can't "legally" come within 1000' of a school with a firearm. Here in Louisiana there is a list of places that are prohibited: courthouses, govt. offices (that shouldn't surprise anyone!), churches, bars (although you can go into a restaurant that serves liquor?!), etc..
There is no provision made for the storage of your weapon at any of these places. You either leave your gun at home, in the car or you simply don't enter. Doing so puts you in violation of the law. So if you're planning to carry in Louisiana you have to have some idea of your itinerary before you go out to avoid any potential problems.
 
Karanas,
I believe you'll find that the Supreme Court, in (?Lopez v. U.S.?), decided the 1000' from any school was UNsonstitutional.
In Texas, for example, I can drop my kids off at school while carrying (CCW) so long as I do not enter the premises of the school, ie unsecured parking lot, sidwalks, etc. are okay.
Check with an attorney for laws & rulings applicable in your area.
 
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