Conceal Rifle Caliber Pistol

I've got a Thompson Contender pistol in .223 and 375 Winchester along a holster big enough. Does that count?

Was .22lr originally a rifle round?
 
Roashooter the topic was how would you conceal a rifle caliber pistol.
Not the merits of such a gun or the practicality of carry.

Simply the "How"
 
I carried a vz-58 7.62x39mm rifle concealed around town once, just to see if I could. The rifle was folded inside UTGs smallest covert cases, and people assumed everywhere we went that it was a portfolio case. It was also bulky, banged into things, and generally a pain in the patoot. Still, the experiment worked, and perfectly legal in Arizona. Now if I were to get a BREN 805 pistol and carry it with the single point sling under a car coat, that would work, though still be bulky and obnoxious. Such a firearm carried concealed would have to be for special occasions or purposes, most which would be more easily handled by avoiding altogether. Unless you're James Bond and cannot avoid the theater full of thugs in tuxedos.
The best solution would be the 5.11 Sling Bag which looks like a regular backpack, but holds either a PCC folded or shorty rifle folded. That would work with my Scorpion pistol with a folding knuckle added on the adapter...maybe for trails hiking or such?
On the other hand, if it's legal and you want to do it, and are willing to put up with the MUCH added hassle, go for it.
 
Have O interest in a rifle caliber handgun.


As a handgun... and not doing a brace or SBR paperwork... I agree.

I'm more interested in a CZ Scorpion, then putting a stock after paperwork (will be done when I move). Even an AR pistol, I wouldn't likely have one if I didn't intend to SBR it. And if I'm doing an SBR, might as well suppress it...
 
Even with a Permit/License some states are specific in what they cover like mine, Ohio, It only covers handguns, nothing else.. SBR's would be a no no, Other weapons like a baton are legally questionable and appear at a glance to be illegal CHL or not.

I don't see any point in the brace except to use it as a stock on the sly, So I have no intent on putting one on mine, Just a single point sling.

SBR or not, Brace or not, How are you gonna conceal it.. That's what I wanna know.
 
Go on KelTec Owners Forum, and look for a sticky in the SUB Carbine section regarding a CRASH rig.

Wouldn't be too hard to make one with some Kydex, for a weapon of your choosing. If you read the directions that the OP in that thread made, he used cardboard to get the sizing for the Kydex... then cut/fit it to the gun.

There are other holster makers that do harnesses in a similar carry manner... draped under the strong side shoulder. Would be able to hang with a QD mount.

I was going to make one of those for my SUB-2000, more for a conversation piece. However, no real desire as I added a Blackhawk double magazine pouch (MOLLE one, with Velcro cover) to a Magpul MS4. If I get bored after the move to Maine, I may do it... and get a cheap Nylon shoulder holster rig off Amazon to use as a base. Considering the MS4, you could put it in single point configuration, and connect it to the firearm. Not familiar with sling options for the PLR16. Would have a visible sling across your chest.

Problem with carrying something along the lines of that KelTec isn't going to be the rig to carry, but the length of the magazine (would also consider the length of the pistol grip). Probably would have to run a 10 rounder so it isn't poking out the back of your cover garment. At that point, and even if you managed a 20 rounder, why go through the hassle? Sorry if that goes against your "how" only thread topic... but if you are going to go through the thought process to setup a carry method, have to consider the downsides. It would be more effective to shoulder carry a Glock 17, without the need of custom made rigs, blowing out your eardrums, and an odd presentation.
 
Screwball it's all good.
Im not planing on carrying one.. at least not as a every day thing.
At first I thought it would be nearly impossible but the more I think about it the more I think you could get away with it with the right clothing.

I was just pointing out it has to be a pistol or it's not even legal in my state.. at least not concealed which is the point.

I still need a few small parts before I build my AR pistol
I just got a 7.5in upper in the mail yesterday.. although it was suppose to have a stainless barrel and they sent it with a phosphate.. so have to wait and see how that goes.
I might toy with the idea in the winter just to see if ideas pan out.
If it could pass a wally walk I think that would be the test.

Couple years ago I thought the whole Idea of rifle caliber pistols was stupid but the idea has grown on me.. not for carry but even though you're giving up 100's of FPS due to shorter length they're still quite potent and allow for easy optics.. most hand guns aren't setup to accept optics.

I gotta think concealment issues aside it would be difficult to match a rifle caliber pistol with a run of the mill handgun.
 
I gotta think concealment issues aside it would be difficult to match a rifle caliber pistol with a run of the mill handgun.


5.56mm out of a 9.5" barrel cannot get to 2,500 FPS at the barrel... even a 10.5" barrel will go under that threshold within 50 yards. 5.56mm is a cartridge that it's speed is what makes it shine... and it was designed around the 20" barrel. Going shorter makes it less effective. But pistol length, a lot of that powder isn't being utilized, due to the lack of barrel.

So, you are gaining noise, losing cartridge effectiveness, and dealing with an uncommonly carried pistol... to each their own, but I'd put my life on a run of the mill handgun over that. Just because a 5.56mm in a rifle is better than a 9mm pistol, doesn't mean a 5.56mm pistol is better. 9mm was designed to perform out of a pistol... but if you increase velocity, it doesn't do anything negative to it (longer barreled 9mm carbines work, within limited ranges). Already mentioned what 5.56mm was designed for. Even if you go to the slow end of pistol calibers (.45 ACP), going slower will never be a benefit (already sub-sonic, so a good suppressor cartridge).
 
Well I'll tell you I'd take a rifle caliber pistol every time @ 50+ yards
But I was more or less thinking about a PDW at typical SD ranges like a pistol would be deployed.

What's so special about 2500fps? Is that the point where 223/556 just becomes worthless?
http://rangehot.com/5-56-223-ballistic-test-carbine-vs-sbr/
This guy tests 16, 11.5, 7.5in barrels.
His conclusion was even with the evident loss of FPS in the 7.5 it still was effective.

The 5.56/.223 is a devastating round primarily due to velocity, and though velocity loss became evident especially in the 7.5″ barrel but many of the rounds still offered excellent performance.

My AR pistol is going to be 7.5.. I would have settled for anything between 7 & 8 but I ran across something I liked on sale at 7.5
My personal opinion was anything over 8" It's gotta be SBR or just a plain old rifle, Thought a 10inch kinda defeated the "pistol" idea.
Remember the m4 is not even 16 inches, it's actually 14.5

So from what I've seen you can expect roughly 2329fps (Actual chronograph) out of a 7.5 W/M885 62gr, 747ft/lb @ muzzle.

Using this ballistic calculator we can expect roughly 2100 fps / 613ft/lb @ 100 yards
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?

But let's check out common handgun calibers see how they stack up.. Im just gonna grab the highest figure I can find on the wiki pages.

Caliber/Weight/ Muzzle Energy (ft/lb)
5.56 / 62gr 747
9mm +p / 115gr 455
.40S&W / 155gr 538
45acp +P/ 185gr 543

So it seems like even with ammo optimized for a barrel at least twice it's length it's still pretty formidable.

Yes rifle pistols are known for their great balls of fire, But I'd imagine a lot of that could be improved with loads optimized for a short barrel.

BTW Again Im not saying you should carry a rifle caliber pistol, Im simply pointing out it DOES have some benefits.
 
We have laws like yours - can only carry a handgun with a ccw permit. On the farm, I wish I could carry a rifle ready to go, and not have to worry about unloading and casing it when jumping between tractors and trucks. So I've given some thought to a PDW type cut down rifle "pistol". Main carry method would be within reach in the vehicle rather than on my person, which makes concealment options much broader.
 
Well I'll tell you I'd take a rifle caliber pistol every time @ 50+ yards


Can tell me whatever you want... isn't going to change my opinion on it.

If it was such a great idea, wouldn't you see this combination in L/E or military hands? The shortest you tend to see is 10" (under 10" is usually builds that people do for poops and giggles). 5.56mm is a very anemic cartridge, and there is no argument with that. It is a light, high velocity round... just how it was designed (replaced the .308, because of weight).

What's so special about 2500fps? Is that the point where 223/556 just becomes worthless?


Kind of, sort of...

FMJ, like the 62 grain M855 that you brought up, will not reliably fragment under that threshold. Since the 5.56mm was designed to do this, you decrease wound capability dramatically under that velocity.

Has there been complaints of 5.56mm in military use... specifically regarding performance? That tends to be more apparent in M4s, running 14.5" barrels. M14s being dusted off wasn't just because we needed to clean out our arsenals. Reducing the barrel length, in turn reducing the velocity, isn't going to make it any better.

So it seems like even with ammo optimized for a barrel at least twice it's length it's still pretty formidable.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/539166_7_5andamp_quot__Ballistics.html

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?39755-7-5-quot-AR-ballistics&

Not talking about accuracy, but if you take the terminal ballistics between a 20" and 7.5" AR... there is going to be a night and day difference in performance with M855. Penetration wise, you are getting to the low end of the spectrum with that slow of a 5.56mm. Don't believe me? Put some rounds into gel or some human-like media... and see what you get. While I wouldn't want to be shot with a BB gun, if someone is determined to do you harm, I really wouldn't want to trust that performance. Typical handguns might not be anything compared to a rifle, but a 5.56mm pistol isn't giving you rifle performance. Rifles give you rifle performance.

While you can plug in whatever numbers you want in a ballistic calculator, energy that doesn't transfer into the target isn't a helpful use of that energy. That is what you are getting with a 5.56mm under 2,500 FPS.

BTW Again Im not saying you should carry a rifle caliber pistol, Im simply pointing out it DOES have some benefits.

The benefits are far and few between... none of which will be beneficial to a civilian, who is conceal carrying for their own protection. The FiveSeven would probably be a better choice for someone with a use for any of those benefits.

But to get away from that, you are concealing a cumbersome firearm (magazine well does it to the gun), one that has more bark than bite (going to be yelling at the 911 operator after a shooting because of being deaf), and coming up with a creative way to conceal it. At that point, why? A PDW... really, it would be better suited with a stock if you had the need for a PDW.
 
If ya don't wanna use a stabilizer, it defeats the purpose in my eyes. And then if your main requirement is around 750 ft-lbs of energy, have you considered a long slide 10mm? Many have decent capacity and can mount a small reflex sight. Or how about a .44 magnum? Or if you insist on something mag fed, how about a .50 AE Desert Eagle? Heck, even the 10" barreled version should still be significantly shorter than most options proposed in this thread, since they have such bulky receivers.

Hmmmm, does anybody make a folding stabilizer brace and foregrip for the Desert Eagle?

I know you weren't looking for thougts on practicality, but they're kinda hard to avoid with the limited scenario you've put forth. These sorts of PDW guns are a much better fit for when ya really need a rifle, and have to skirt the laws to carry something that almost is one.
 
Can tell me whatever you want... isn't going to change my opinion on it.
Fair enough, Not trying to trying to convert you carry one of these.. hell IM not even carrying one of these that does not mean they don't have advantages.
You don't seem to wanna give a inch though.

If it was such a great idea, wouldn't you see this combination in L/E or military hands? The shortest you tend to see is 10" (under 10" is usually builds that people do for poops and giggles). 5.56mm is a very anemic cartridge, and there is no argument with that. It is a light, high velocity round... just how it was designed (replaced the .308, because of weight).
I've seen videos of swat raids where they're clearly using SBR's of what exact size I can't tell on video.. next you'll be telling me it's like a 22lr with such a short barrel.

Kind of, sort of...

FMJ, like the 62 grain M855 that you brought up, will not reliably fragment under that threshold. Since the 5.56mm was designed to do this, you decrease wound capability dramatically under that velocity.
Look I just picked it out of the list because it had the highest energy on the list.. just like when looking at the 9,40,45 I simply picked the highest one on the list off the wiki.. Pick a different round then.. he shows the bullets after digging them out of the gel, clearly the ones designed to expand did just that.

Hornady 55gr vmax
Penetration (3layers over gel): 16in
Expansion: 0.466 W/fragmentation


Ok back to the m855..
Look at the guys chrono for a 16inch (a full 1.5inch longer then a m4)
He got 2855fps, Ok so 2855 in the balletic calc says at 220yards the round will be going 2326fps.. wow that's pretty close to the 7.5in at 2329 @ muzzle.
Mind you im not trying to claim the 7.5in makes a good replacement rifle where you can shoot ANOTHER 200 yards, im talking about say 20 additional yards close range..

BTW it's 2510fps at 140 yards.. again out of 16inch barrel (Your most common ar15 build).. so I guess you better stick to shots within 100 yards to be safe.

Not talking about accuracy, but if you take the terminal ballistics between a 20" and 7.5" AR... there is going to be a night and day difference in performance with M855. Penetration wise, you are getting to the low end of the spectrum with that slow of a 5.56mm. Don't believe me? Put some rounds into gel or some human-like media... and see what you get.
The page I linked to previously the guy did gel tests.. but whatever.

While I wouldn't want to be shot with a BB gun, if someone is determined to do you harm, I really wouldn't want to trust that performance. Typical handguns might not be anything compared to a rifle, but a 5.56mm pistol isn't giving you rifle performance. Rifles give you rifle performance.
Never said it was going to give you rifle performance.. By all means quote me where I said that or even implied.
It's pretty apparent you're giving up 5-700fps with a 7.5in barrel that wasn't the point, The point was it's still more potent then most handguns.

While you can plug in whatever numbers you want in a ballistic calculator, energy that doesn't transfer into the target isn't a helpful use of that energy. That is what you are getting with a 5.56mm under 2,500 FPS.
Right Understood.. beyond 150 yards m855 is junk out of a 16, message received.

The benefits are far and few between... none of which will be beneficial to a civilian, who is conceal carrying for their own protection. The FiveSeven would probably be a better choice for someone with a use for any of those benefits.
Right cause the 5.7 is such a monster!
It was primarily designed to defeat body armor.
Now things might have changed but I know when the 5.7 hit the market you could not find AP ammo in that caliber.. so ya.. REAL monster.

Let me decide what's beneficial for me.. and I'll let you decide what's right for you.. M'kay?

But to get away from that, you are concealing a cumbersome firearm (magazine well does it to the gun), one that has more bark than bite (going to be yelling at the 911 operator after a shooting because of being deaf), and coming up with a creative way to conceal it. At that point, why? A PDW... really, it would be better suited with a stock if you had the need for a PDW.
PDW is just a descriptive term.. bigger then a handgun smaller then a carbine.. don't read to much into it.

I personally think it will conceal reasonably well under a medium or heavy coat with a single point, I previously said I would give it a shot come winter till then I'd look a bit out of place trying to conceal it under a shirt and people might get suspicious of a heavy coat in summer time.. don't you think?

This was suppose to be a fun thread, Sorry it's turned into sucha bitching match.
Loosen up, I don't care what you carry man, It's not like im getting paid here.
You seem to think Im trying to convert people to this mode of carry when really Im just trying to have some fun.
IM not even carrying one of these.. I just thought it would be fun to think of ways to do it.
 
If ya don't wanna use a stabilizer, it defeats the purpose in my eyes. And then if your main requirement is around 750 ft-lbs of energy, have you considered a long slide 10mm? Many have decent capacity and can mount a small reflex sight.
It wasn't really a goal I was just trying to post some numbers for screwball who thinks 556 becomes useless out of a shorter barrel.
There is no goal here really I just thought it would be fun to imagine different ways of trying to conceal something that is obviously impractical to conceal, but if you could would be legal.

Would you guys rather talk about trying to conceal fullsize shotguns or rifles? I mean we can expand the discussion but it's not legal in my state to do so.

Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious to film your self walking thru walmart with a concealed rifle pistol and no one noticing?
I find it funny cause it's ridiculous oversized but at the same time intriguing that it might actually be possible.

You guys are taking this too literal as if I wanna make this a EDC or something.

10mm could probably match the power.. not sure, It could be mounted but it's more of a pain on a auto loaders.. revolvers are easier to scope.

But then again 556 kinda the start of the scale for rifle pistols, We could just scale up to something else like an AK if we wanted to stay ahead of the curve.

Or how about a .44 magnum? Or if you insist on something mag fed, how about a .50 AE Desert Eagle? Heck, even the 10" barreled version should still be significantly shorter than most options proposed in this thread, since they have such bulky receivers.
Oh for sure both those would out class it on power.. Those are pretty large guns in their own right though, But 556 is just one rifle caliber that comes in pistol form.. I've not looked at terminal ballistics but I wonder how a AK pistol would stack up.. or didn't someone make HK91 clone in pistol form? .308win,

Then we also have 300 blackout that should preform very well out of a short barrel.. but ammo can be kinda expensive.

Maybe when I get into reloading or it picks up more steam 300 blackout is interesting but I avoided it cause of cost.

I've never shot a .50ae but I have shot a .44mag and im a big guy but that's a lotta gun even for me, I think the AR pistols have better control ability with rapid shooting.

Im sure someone who shoots them all the time though could make them sing.

Hmmmm, does anybody make a folding stabilizer brace and foregrip for the Desert Eagle?

I know you weren't looking for thoughts on practicality, but they're kinda hard to avoid with the limited scenario you've put forth. These sorts of PDW guns are a much better fit for when ya really need a rifle, and have to skirt the laws to carry something that almost is one.
No No practicality discussion is fine, I don't think we can fully divorce it from the discussion.
On that topic I fully admit these are not practical.. they're to big for sure.. I still think it could be done though under the right conditions.

Not sure about a folding brace, you mean like the stabilizers they sell for AK/AR pistols? I do know they make full stocks for the DE.. im not sure about fore grips.. I assume you mean vertical? either way the stock would make it a SBR.. which can't be carried concealed in Ohio even with a CHL.
 
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