Compare 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP in Self-Defense Shooting?

And sometimes a .357 Magnum doesn't work all that well. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim who was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:
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Your characterization is somewhat flawed. With all due respect to you and Ms Lim. She did not chase anyone down, She had her pistol tucked under her arm and the BG was behind her car, which she had just got out of. She was able to shoot him several times and stumble around the car. She herself believed that if she were hit again she would have died on the spot, if not for her roommate she probably would have. I kinda have an inside track, friend of a friend......:)

All I can say is thank god it was a Winchester 110 magnum and not a Remington. Bullet construction and velocity make as much and maybe more difference than caliber. I also really dislike the term "Handgun velocity" what is that anyway? It is a hold over from the studies in the 1890 by Kocher in Germany where he compared the would with Pistols and rifles during the black powder era. Pistol velocity was pretty much accepted as below 1000 fps. We really to to stop using that term, expanding bullets @ over 1300 fps really are game changers, provided they penetrate enough.

My main carry gun now as a retired fed is my Model 69 Smith loaded with 180 grain JHP's @ 1500 fps (PMC Bronze), backed up by a Charter arms Bulldog 44 special. Having survived working the streets for as long as I did, working up thru my career and seeing hundreds of shootings first hand, investigating them, interviewing those involved and conferring with trusted colleagues has left its impression on me.

I do not need 17 chances to make an impression, I want to hit them so hard the first chance I get that they realize they need to be somewhere else, NOW. :)
 
I think my stance is being mistaken slightly.

A full size steel framed 1911, an SP101, a G19, or an NAA mini revolver one should not be solely dependent on his or her firearm rendering the attacker incapable of continuing the attack. Chances are a competent and determined attacker is going to get to contact distance before being physiologically disabled. Now a handful of holes is likely to render said attacker less capable then he or she was at the beginning of the encounter and should not be entirely dismissed but, in preparation for self defense, one must be prepared for the distinct possibility he or she is going to be forced into fighting at contact distance and that the use of the firearm may be less than the optimal choice - though I will note a full sized 1911 or SP101 probably make wonderful clubs.
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Thats why one should practice at least once in a while via dryfiring with emptying a mag into the body from the clinch position.
 
I want to hit them so hard the first chance I get that they realize they need to be somewhere else, NOW.
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While the blast and the recoil may make one tend to believe otherwise, handgun bullets do not hit "hard".

They enter a soft target and they damage whatever they happen to strike inside that target.
 
While the blast and the recoil may make one tend to believe otherwise, handgun bullets do not hit "hard".

They enter a soft target and they damage whatever they happen to strike inside that target.
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I guess you have never seen anyone shot with a magnum revolver with a light for caliber, fast, partially fragmenting JHP.
 
Nanuk,

Your characterization is somewhat flawed. With all due respect to you and Ms Lim. She did not chase anyone down, She had her pistol tucked under her arm and the BG was behind her car, which she had just got out of. She was able to shoot him several times and stumble around the car. She herself believed that if she were hit again she would have died on the spot, if not for her roommate she probably would have. I kinda have an inside track, friend of a friend......
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Probably a minor point, but in the lecture she gave at one of our IALEFI Annual Training Conferences, She had changed into Civvies at work, but did not leave her duty belt behind. And if my memory serves me? She said she had the belt over her shoulder. So she would have had to unsnap the holstered pistol to access it. Hard to do when it is not around your waist.
 
Probably a minor point, but in the lecture she gave at one of our IALEFI Annual Training Conferences, She had changed into Civvies at work, but did not leave her duty belt behind. And if my memory serves me? She said she had the belt over her shoulder. So she would have had to unsnap the holstered pistol to access it. Hard to do when it is not around your waist.
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Could be. I got my info from a homicide Det that is also a personal friend. Either way she is one tough lady.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Irrelevant. At handgun velocities energy transfer is meaningless.
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First off he said momentum not energy, two very different things energy can change forms chemical>heat>pressure>kinetic>pressure>elastic.
momentum can not.

Second BS the differences at the extremes can be quite meaningful.
There's a big difference in wound channels between a 700 fps 38 special and a 1450 fps 357 magnum.

Ultimately energy is a poor figure to use as a benchmark predictor for terminal performance but it's far from meaningless.

As to the OP momentum is what knocks pepper poppers over and 45s and 40s generally have more momentum than a 9mm.
 
Ballistic Gelatin... Just a thought. I know a 22 can bounce all around inside you causing death.

Ballistic Gelatin the bullet never bounces..... So how does wound cavity matter when few of us are 11-15" thick?
 
Pistol rounds rarely get hypersonic.
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I am personally aware of no rifle rounds that are hypersonic.

In aerodynamics, a hypersonic speed is one that is highly supersonic. Since the 1970s, the term has generally been assumed to refer to speeds of Mach 5 and above.
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I can name lots of handgun rounds that are supersonic.

su·per·son·ic
ˌso͞opərˈsänik/
adjective
adjective: supersonic

involving or denoting a speed greater than that of sound.
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So how does wound cavity matter when few of us are 11-15" thick?
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Because the BG probably isn't going to just stand there squared up with his arms at his side
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That's exactly right. Chances are high that an attacker will have an arm in front of hi.,

So, in order to effect a physical stop, a defender's bullets will have to....
  1. Enter the arm;
  2. Probably, break either the radius or the ulna or both;
  3. Exit the arm--and the exit wound through skin will consume more energy than most people realize;
  4. Enter the torso through fabric, possibly breaking a rib; and drive through to and damage something critical within the body, which may not be facing the defender.
 
O. M.

Exit the arm--and the exit wound through skin will consume more energy than most people realize;
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Interesting observation! One of my Students, a ATM Employee, had reason to fire his S&W Mod 65 Revolver, at a male of around 20 YOA, 6' tall, slim build.

Distance from muzzle around 6'. Caliber .38 Special, 158g lead hollow point +P.

Both men of similar height and weight. Bullet nicked the heart on it's way to penetrate the body totally. Said bullet found on Gurney, after cloths removed (sliced off) very little damage to bullet. A witness described the shirt reacting, as though hit, hanging on a cloths line, with a stick, a snap.
Shirt not penetrated.

Which caused me to believe the skin caused rapid slow down of the projectile.

Same witness said he stopped advancing, at the sound of the shot. Shocked look on his face, half a step to the rear, collapsed vertically, straight down.

Verdict of Jury (Toronto Canada) Self defense.
 
gunfighter101

This is a debate that will most likely never end. I'm not going to favor one caliber over the rest butI will say this. Come to my hometown and I'll introduce you to 3 men that have been shot 6,7 and 9 times with a 9mm that are still working heavy construction. No joke!
 
what happens in comp does not necessarily translate into real armed conflict. I would use the information gleaned from comp to better prepare for more comp. If you want to make some determination about real combat.. that is a totally separate subject.

If were were talking about 22lr and 45.. I think there would be some ballistics differences worth considering. Between 9mm 40 and 45.. I would select the firearm I was most proficient with and be done with it. As far as knock down power goes, I generally consider the term to be tv and movie hubbub.
 
What they are doing now

Is of no concern. What they were doing after hit 6,7, or 9 times is. If the threat can be stopped it really doesn't matter if the threat ultimately lives or dies. Construction worker or not.
This is a debate that will most likely never end. I'm not going to favor one caliber over the rest butI will say this. Come to my hometown and I'll introduce you to 3 men that have been shot 6,7 and 9 times with a 9mm that are still working heavy construction. No joke!
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What sits on your belt? Is your choice, me Glock 19, you? What ever floats your boat.

My only piece of advice, I truly believe in, what ever your choice, carry it every day. Be alert, be prepared to protect your loved ones always, and enjoy every minute, of every day.
 
Knock down power.

Just my observations.
Sometimes you have to shoot, sometimes you don't.
Sometimes they fall down, sometimes they dont.
Sometimes they die, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes they die right now, sometimes they die later.
You don't get shot, you don't fall down, you don't die....
Everything else is pappy.

No one wants to get shot, no one wants to get shot again...
 
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