Compare 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP in Self-Defense Shooting?

Can we say that the 30 krag round would not penetrate their clothing?
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Of course not, but it was not considered inadequate, either.

What was learned, primarily in Cuba, is that .30 cal. and 7mm FMJ rifle bullets caused clean wounds that did not get infected as quickly as those made with lead .45 and 11mm lead bullets.

Was the move to a 45 round just typical generals fighting the last war?
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If so, so what? The role of the handgun in US and British Army service had not changed; it was a cavalry weapon. The British had switched from .36 to .450 revolvers, and the US, from Texas Ranger .36 revolvers to .44 for the Army, retaining the .36 for the Navy, which had only small numbers of horse soldiers.

I suspect there was validity to going to the 45.
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There's no question about that in my mind.

One should not assume that the .45 was all that effective against the Moros, however, It was just better than the .38 LC.

I own more 9s than 45s, but just reloading for them show quite a difference. Is the 9 more efficient than the 45, probably, but only recently with new bullets, otherwise its just a 355 hole vs a 451 hole or a 308 hole.
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The experts tell us that the diameter makes some difference, but that what is hit makes the most. More shots on target will increase the odds on that.

With a shot through a lung, the minor difference in diameter will have very little impact in terms of effective rapid incapacitation. Same for two lungs. But with more hits, the likelihood of hitting something vital is hither, regardless of diameter.

Around seven years ago, with my great "knowledge" of how the .45 stopped the Moros cold, my confusing the kick in my hand with effectiveness, and the obviously greater impact on steel plates, I bought a .45.

I had had no defensive shooting training.

Then someone here showed some comparative penetration data. I learned something about wounding effectiveness--I had somehow never paid enough attention to anatomy. And I availed myself of some high performance defensive shooting range. The differences in impact rapidity on steel plates among shooters using the 9mm, the .40, and the .45 made me seriously question beliefs I had held tor many years.

And then when the latest high-performance defensive loads in 9mm came out...
 
if you miss, it doesn't matter what you are shooting. shoot the caliber that you are most accurate with under time pressure. good self defense loads all have about the same energy. i'll take more rounds on board that i also shoot better.
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That sums it up. Knowing how the human body works, is good.

A round that hits the heart, and say stops it? General consensus has on average, 15 seconds of ability to do stuff, pull triggers, plunge blade into body, ETC.

I met a young Lady Police Officer, who had been shot through the heart! This was observed by one of her room mates, a nurse, rapid response of a team of Paramedics, she lived.

So, carry a bunch of good quality 9mm rounds, 16? In the lightest, most reliable pistol you own. And do that every day. And be aware, very alert.
 
well different settings require different precautions. Not many gangs in Maine, if I have to shoot multiple targets, chances are they will be dogs or rabbits and that would be two.

I get a kick out of watching Miculek or hickok popping off multiple targets the guys are amazing, but getting that proficiency would require dedication and money.

In my situation, no reason, it be similar to prepping a big block with a 4 speed for a july 4th parade.
 
Momentum is the key to knocking down poppers not energy. Momentum treats velocity and bullet mass equally. So yes, .45 ACP has more "knock down power".
 
As VBA states it is momentum that moves a metal target not the kinetic energy, although they are related. Multiply the bullet weight in pounds by the velocity in fps and you get the momentum of the bullet in foot pounds per seconds. At a given distance from the pivot point a certain amount of force is needed to move the metal past the balance point. That force is the momentum while the energy is used to heat the bullet and destroy it. If enough force is transferred from the bullet to the target before the energy destroys the bullet then the target will fall.
Most people think a heavy full metal jacket bullet is the best bullet to do this but in the silhouette game we have found that a hollow point bullet of medium weight for caliber transfers more momentum to a metal target than a FMJ bullet before it is destroyed. There is real physics behind this but let's just say that the hollow point bullet deforms over a longer period of time before it is destroyed by its energy.
 
Cartridges/Pistols/Equipment? All important factors in the striving for the way to survive an encounter with a criminal, or criminals!

But without the built in survival, that comes from our DNA? Our ancestors?
Who knows, in my case. Who me? Yes me.

The earliest relative, coming to the England of old, came from Normandy, in 1188. Geo De Haergrove? All spelled wrong, the plaque I had, left behind in Canada! That part of the Continent, home of the Vikings.

The King of France gave the land to the Vikings, to stop them plundering into France. Did not work!

I looked the part with my Red Beard, till it went to the color it now is, White.

I am sure many of the residents of these pages came from quite similar back grounds, Italian Mountain Men, native Indian, African Kings, ETC.

Feasible? Something buried deep, sitting, waiting!
 
zincwarrior said:
.357 revolver: EVERYONE else just inhales - its...a revolver shooter! Uncle Joe was right. They're...real...
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.357 Magnum is what all the other pistol cartridges want to be when they grow up....... :D
 
I'd say the 357 also, but I guess this is a semi-auto thread. I have no experience with the 40, but if I had to shoot someone I'll stick with the 1911a1 and 45.

If I'm going to shoot someone chances are he will be close and 3 rounds of 45 or even one will be plenty. No need for a speed loader or 16 round mag. Hopefully whoever is close doesn't have a vest on that I'll have to pierce with a 9. I guess that is why you should go for a head shot too.

I get tired of shooting those 16 round mags, shell casings flying every where, how am I going to find them in the grass. Will this thing ever get empty. Money flying out of the ejection port.

Just like the 223, 20 rd mags, when will this thing ever get done, can you imaging hunting with that pip squeak round on deer.
 
If I'm going to shoot someone chances are he will be close and 3 rounds of 45 or even one will be plenty.
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If you shoot someone lawfully he will probably be close and he will probably be moving fast. If your one round happens to hit something vital, and if it does, it will be a matter of luck, it may be "plenty" but it well likely not stop him instantly.

If it does not hit something vital, it would only stop him via psychological effect, and to depend upon that would be like drawing on an inside straight.

Your second or third shot would come into play.

Or maybe more--but remember how fast someone can move in a second or so.

That, and the close equivalence of the three rounds in terminal ballistics, leads to the objective conclusion that, in similar firearms, a 9mm will usually be more effective than the .40 or the .45.

Given adequate penetration and good bullet design, controllability is the key. Now, I would certainly take a .45 in a good 1911 over a tiny 9mm pistol any day, but that's not because of terminal ballistics.
 
Personally, I have a 357 and a 45 Colt that I would choose over my CZ75B 9mm every time. The 9mm carries 17 rounds (16+1) but you might need that many rounds to stop somebody. It has similar ballistics to a 38 special +P and the police forces dropped that round for more power until they found they couldn't control the recoil.

An auto can fail to feed, fail to fire, or fail to eject. That is why the first thing you learn in class is how to clear a jam. My revolvers have never failed to fire in the last 40+ years, I have used them in competition out to 100 yards very successfully, and I am comfortable enough to defend my life with them.
The CZ has not failed to function yet but it is fairly new and 9mm is no match for the 357 or the 45Colt.

Aside from the inherent problems with auto loaders the 40 and 45 are adequate for self defense rounds. I have owned a Colt Combat Commander and it was a piece of junk. It had more burrs in the action than it had separate parts. After deburring it, I could actually fire more than one shot before it failed to return to battery. After I got it functioning it would fail once in a hundred rounds or so. I will not own another Colt gun. It took me 40 years to try an auto loader again. While I am very happy with my CZ I bought it specifically for 3 gun competition with no intent to ever carry it for protection.

If you have a gun, in any caliber, that you can shoot two or three rounds rapidly into a four inch target at 20 feet then by all means use it as long as you can depend on it. If it fails at the wrong time it could cost you your life.
 
The 9mm carries 17 rounds (16+1) but you might need that many rounds to stop somebody. It has similar ballistics to a 38 special +P and the police forces dropped that round for more power until they found they couldn't control the recoil. ... The CZ has not failed to function yet but it is fairly new and 9mm is no match for the 357 or the 45Colt.
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There is no meaningful difference between the terminal ballistics of a good modern 9mm load with premium bullets and one of the others.

Police experience with the .38 is dated. They dropped the .38 when they dropped revolvers, and the amnion available today is not what they used eons ago.

I have a couple of .357 revolvers, and I may get another for pocket use, but I load them with premium .38 defense loads. The penetration is adequate and is not excessive, and the sound pressure is not as injurious as that of a .357.

Aside from the inherent problems with auto loaders the 40 and 45 are adequate for self defense rounds. ...
If you have a gun, in any caliber, that you can shoot two or three rounds rapidly into a four inch target at 20 feet then by all means use it as long as you can depend on it
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"Rapidly" has to be defined. Think in terms of someone moving at 15 fps.

Anyone can shoot a 9mm more rapidly than a .40 or .45 in a gun of the same weight. trigger, grip, etc.

That's simple physics--Newton's Second Law of Motion.
 
I mainly carry and shoot .45&.40, but I do carry a 9mm on occasion. To get similar performance of the .40/.45 out of a 9mm, good defensive bullets/ammo needs to be used...and they are usually +P or +P+. Not everyone trains with these kind of loads, make sure you do if you plan on taking advantage of the perceived fast follow up shots the 9mm offers, especially with the sub- compact 9's.
 
I mainly carry and shoot .45&.40, but I do carry a 9mm on occasion. To get similar performance of the .40/.45 out of a 9mm, good defensive bullets/ammo needs to be used...and they are usually +P or +P+. Not everyone trains with these kind of loads, make sure you do if you plan on taking advantage of the perceived fast follow up shots the 9mm offers, especially with the sub- compact 9's.
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That brings up several points.

First, it is premium grade defensive ammunition that meets the FBI requirements for penetration in 9mm. I wouldn't recommend +P+, but it may well be that heavier bullets are preferable.

Second, the sub-compact 9s will likely be much more difficult for rapid controlled fire than the bigger models.

Third, practice is important. Firearms with heavy recoil are not conducive to extended practice sessions. In addition, while many people are proud about their perceived ability handle recoil, neurological and tendon and joint damage may well occur over time. I'll take a little more weight any day, and I most certainly will not make a habit of using powerful ammunition in light weight sub-compact firearms.
 
On my usual rant? Glock 19 Gen 4, so easy to carry. 147g Ranger T, no plus anything! Sits under a shirt always. Cool then a long sleeved one.

If one round is enough? The rest don't eat nuffink!
 
Simple math from simple minds

I love these debates, especially the earlier post about the 9mm being stopped by fog and also the 40 caliber being able to blow a hole in a concrete block.
I understand the math behind the formula E=1/2m*V(2) but I do have a few points to remind people about these formulas. First off the units are given in foot*pounds so if I use the published data for my 38 special loads (note I avoided all the caliber debates by picking this caliber) my carry load has an energy rating of 200 ft lbs. This means it can move a 200 lb load 1 foot per newton's second law, all that equal and opposite stuff. So if I I weigh 400 pounds and I take two revolvers and shot them down at the ground at the same time, and keep my arms locked I should be lifted up in the air one foot. This can be evidenced by Yosemite Sam doing this in the bug bunny cartoons!
Another interesting fact about these formulas is that work equals load X distance so if I push against the wall with the same 400 pound force for an hour and the wall does not move (no matter how much I sweat, ) no work has been done. This dispels the entire Squib myth because if the bullet never leaves the barrel there was no work performed by the bullet no matter how much your barrel is bulged!
 
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Energy is a measurement of the ability to perform work. The kinetic energy of a bullet hitting a target is or can be wasted and never used on the target.
For example if a bullet with 200 foot pounds of energy hits a 1/2 inch A500 steel plate the bullets energy goes into the heat and destruction of the bullet and very little is transfered as momentum to the target. Momentum is a better way to measure the transfer to a target takes place. That 200 grain bullet, if traveling at 800 fps has only 25 foot pounds of momentum. It will accelerate a 25 pound block to 1 fps (in a frictionless environment).
 
shootist, I was wondering, where do you get the information for momentum? What is the formula. You math seems more to the point for this discussion.
My post was of course tongue in cheek, but I would like to know what momentum formula your using.
 
momentum is just mass times velocity, in its simplest form. The engineers used to use the term "slugs" and that is velocity times mass divided by 1/2 G.

Momentum transferred to a target requires the target to absorb the bullet without heat, without passing through, and without recoil. If the bullet bounces off the target it can impart more momentum to the target because the action of the target "throwing" the bullet away in the same direction it hits, imparts the momentum of the bouncing bullet into the target due to the equal and opposite reaction principal.
 
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