COM vs. Abdomen Targeting

Head shots, aiming center mass, lower torso hits...

I disagree with a recent member post.
I, for 1, do not aim first for a subject's head or think the head is the "best" or first target location in a critical event(lethal force).
Many gunners or license holders may think the human head is ideal to cause a quick or immediate response but let's think about that topic;

The human head is a smaller target. It's also not as thick or dense as a human torso. Excessive penetration or a serious risk to a bystander or person not a threat in the event are valid concerns too.
A gun press article written many years ago about civil/court cases that involved head shots made a few related points: If a subject wounded by a gunshot to the head or face lives, they sometimes become a pathetic or sad sight for a court judge & jury to see.
Lawyers and legal support teams(para-legals, PIs, etc) may unfairly paint the armed citizen or sworn LE officer as poorly trained or blood-thristy or cruel because they aimed or shot at a subject's head.

As I posted before, for general protection or duty uses, I aim center mass on human size training targets. Lower torso or head shots may be required in some lethal force incidents but that would be based on the conditions(range, heavy clothing, body armor, etc).
The 1997 Bank of America/LAPD incident is a good example. One of the violent, armed bank robbers was wearing class IV body armor. He was shot in the feet & lower legs by LAPD officers on the crime scene.
 
Clyde, I know a cop that ended a OIS with a shot to the victims head. When the state asked why he shot for the head he simply articulated the situation. There was no magic attempt to turn him in to a villian. If you can reasonably articulate why a head shot was needed chances are it won't be an issue.

A good shoot is a good shoot. I wouldn't make it my first shot. If I get up to number three or four it is an option though.

Why did you shoot him in the head?

Multiple attempts to stop him with shots to the torso proved ineffective. He continued to advance and pose a threat. I took his determination to mean that he would not stop untill he caused serious bodily injury, or killed, someone in my home.
 
You keep preaching shooting on the move. but wouldn't prefer your opponant to be stationary.
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Sure Id like them still, but Im not counting on it, and Im not going to be if I can help it. If they want to stand there and shoot where I was, that does make it easier, and would be great. :)

The whole point of moving is to be less of a target yourself, and give yourself as much of an edge as you can. Its also a natural thing, in any kind of fight, so why fight it? Shooting while moving is actually a lot easier than it sounds, especially with a little practice. Then again, if you dont, or have never practiced it, it may seem intimidating.

I, for 1, do not aim first for a subject's head or think the head is the "best" or first target location in a critical event
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Its not the "first" target, but the next response to the COM shots failing to give the desired result.

The human head is a smaller target. It's also not as thick or dense as a human torso. Excessive penetration or a serious risk to a bystander or person not a threat in the event are valid concerns too.
A gun press article written many years ago about civil/court cases that involved head shots made a few related points: If a subject wounded by a gunshot to the head or face lives, they sometimes become a pathetic or sad sight for a court judge & jury to see.
Lawyers and legal support teams(para-legals, PIs, etc) may unfairly paint the armed citizen or sworn LE officer as poorly trained or blood-thristy or cruel because they aimed or shot at a subject's head. .
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Ill take winning the first fight and having to deal with court afterwords, than losing the first fight, because I was so worried about what "might" happen in the aftermath that I hesitated doing what was needed to win.

I understand its something that needs to be understood, and considered, but it has no place in in your mind during the fight. The only thing there should be the focus on winning the fight.
 
Without arguing against the suggestion that practice should be more realistic, here replying to AK103K especially, the simple fact of the matter is, for most of us there's no place to do that. All ranges I've used wouldn't allow you to do anything but stand in one place and shoot and one wouldn't even allow rapid fire (although .50 caliber rifles were OK). Outside of having your own private range or backcountry strip mine, where I used to do all my shooting before moving to the city, the only place I can think of is a police or military range. I never used any army range where you could realistically move around either, come to think of it.

It might be worth mentioning here that there's a difference between military situations and personal self-defense situtations and even those can be varied, depending on where you are, inside or outside. So you may never see a person presenting themselves as a full target, unless perhaps they're very close. But that's one of the big differences between military combat and personal self-defense. In any case, the head will always be exposed as a target, the rest of the body may or may not be.

I believe I read somewhere that often fire is directed towards the weapon.
 
BlueTrain, from what I understand, it isn't that fire is "directed" toward the weapon so much as it's a matter of people fixating on that enormous-looking muzzle pointed their way... Anybody who skis, skates, or rides motorcycles knows what tends to happen when you fixate on and stare at something - your whole body tends to orient to that point.
 
Most of us are not highly trained or disiplined for shooting at another human. If the need arises, I want to hit the bad guy somewhere.
For me, that is a COM hold. Higher percentage of chance there will be a hit. If my mind and gun are still functioning, follow-up shots may be able to be placed more precisely.
 
Experience and knowledge tends to reduce pressure and enhance confidence, making things go a little easier. Time is basically irrelevant, as it takes what it takes, and if youre worried about beating the clock, youre likely to beat yourself worrying about the clock. Concentrate on doing what needs done, and do it right the first time. Rushing and screwing up, is worse than being slow and sure.
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AK103K,
In your shootout how did you handle the pressure of potentially dying? Time may be irrelevant but when someone is about to kill you it seems a difficult task to control the feeling that it is running out.
 
Most of us are not highly trained or disiplined for shooting at another human. If the need arises, I want to hit the bad guy somewhere.
For me, that is a COM hold. Higher percentage of chance there will be a hit. If my mind and gun are still functioning, follow-up shots may be able to be placed more precisely.
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+1.

Thank you Rifleman1776.
 
AK103K,
In your shootout how did you handle the pressure of potentially dying? Time may be irrelevant but when someone is about to kill you it seems a difficult task to control the feeling that it is running out.
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How do you handle the pressure in any situation where your life might be on the line? Panic? Freeze? Keep your head and work through it? I suppose you never know until you get to address it for real a couple of times. I will say, I have yet to see anything in a match or games arena that even came close to introducing "stress", like the real thing of any sort that started you on that path.

The times Ive come close, I cant ever remember "time" ever getting a thought (and in a couple of those cases, time could have been considered very relevant). I was to busy dealing with the problems at hand and working on solving them. So far, all problems solved in my favor, and only a few scars and recurring aches and pains to remind me of the adventures at hand. :)

One thing I have noticed over the years is, as you go through things and learn to deal with, and accept things like stress, pressure, your emotions, you tend to deal with subsequent things with more poise, focus, and less anxiety. For some reason, you also dont seem to be as easily surprised (by or about a lot of things) as you were before either.


Im really not much on poetry, but as a kid, I was given Cooke's "How did you die?" to read by my father, and it had a pretty big effect on me. For that matter, to this day, it still does, and at this point, I know it by heart. Im sure you can Google up a copy if you dont know it, but I think youll find it sums a lot of things up nicely.
 
Good poem thanks.

I hope to fight well. I plan on fighting till I'm no longer capable. If I die I won't know it so why worry about it.

That said when I pull up to the range on competition morning my stomach starts aching and I usually have to visit the head. This despite all efforts to relax and stay calm.

I am able to function well enough to be very competitive however the nerves take a toll. I can't imagine gunfight pressure being easier.

I hope that the suddenness of most fights won't give me time to get the nerves going.
 
I have already set my mind to if I am in a SD shoot I am probably going to get hit. I might get hit bad, maybe not so bad. My school of thought is 'Im so ****** off this THUG will make my family loose me so I WONT die. I will fight until physically no longer capable. I decided upon that mindset a long time ago. I want to take em with me if Im going too.
 
I used to occasionally teach a women's self defense course. I used to ask them how they would fight a larger man if he attacked them. They would usually say they couldn't. Then I would ask what they would do if they were walking with one of their children and the man attacked their child. Then they would say they would fight to their last breath. Why? Because they love their child. But don't your children love YOU?? Wouldn't your loved ones want you to fight just as hard for their Dad? of Mom? You are JUST as important to them. You aren't fighting for YOU, you are fighting so your child won't be an orphan or grow up without a dad or mom. If you don't have children, you still ARE someone's child. No parent wants to outlive their child.
 
Thank you. Back to the OPs original question, the abdomen IS COM in a frontal shot as far as I'm concerned. Misses are moot. You can miss either just as easily. While an abdomen shot may be painful a hit to the heart or lungs is effective, more so than pain I would wager. There are few things more painful than a collapsed or perforated lung. I can't imagine having much fight left in my when my lung is filling with my own blood. Would I train to lower COM intentionally? Not me.
 
Posts, cute lawyer tricks...

I think some of the forum members are missing my point(s) about using the human head as a combat target over the torso or pelvic area.

As I stated, the head is to me, not the FIRST or BEST choice but it MAY be required to aim at based on the factors of the lethal force event.

The "win the first fight" mindset has flaws too. Yes, you must apply or use your skill sets or training to prevail in a high stress lethal force event BUT could you explain or justify your actions under oath or in court later on?

A crafty lawyer or a criminal investigator could grind up a subject or defendant with the "I don't care what happens." or "I aimed for the head & didn't care about the law or anyone near the armed criminal."

Armed license holders just like sworn LE officers must justify & account for every round they fire in a use of force(lethal force) event.

ClydeFrog
 
Clyde, I'm either in fear of death or grave bodily injury or I'm not shooting. Justification of my choice of shot location should be irrelevant after that. Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. If thats a glancing shot to the arm so be it. If its 5 rounds to 5 different areas so be it.

Someone kinda summed it up earlier or in another thread. I can't worry about the law when someone is trying to kill me. I have to stop them first.

If you follow the law you will likely be ok. If you do like the lady in my story you might not.
 
The "win the first fight" mindset has flaws too. Yes, you must apply or use your skill sets or training to prevail in a high stress lethal force event BUT could you explain or justify your actions under oath or in court later on?
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I don't think so. win the fight and face the jury is always a better answer than lose the fight.;)

After further thought to the OP's question. I guess you could set up a matrix.
with targeting priority and avaliability.
My priorities would be.
1 upper torso
2 head
3 pelvic girdle
4 lower torso
5 extremities
and then whats the highest priority thing on the list thats avaliable to hit.
 
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