COM vs. Abdomen Targeting
- Thread starter JustThisGuy
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TylerD45ACP
New member
Excellent parallel Moose Nucklez--That is dead on
Jim Cirello; NYPD stake-out unit, torso shots...
There is a lot of data in the reply messages and I did not read all of them so please take that into consideration;
As for general shot placement or marksmanship with a duty or protection handgun, I'd advise to aim center mass of the subject's torso.
Valid arguements could also be made for aiming at the lower torso.
Former NYPD officer Jim Cirello(check spelling) told his classes at the FLETC, www.fletc.gov how the NYPD police surgeon advised his unit to shoot violent felons in the lower torso to disable them and because of the chance the subjects may have body armor.
Cirello worked on a special undercover detail that tracked armed robbery incidents. He later became a tactics/weapons trainer for the US Customs Service. Cirello was in a auto accident and past away about 3/4 years ago.
ClydeFrog
There is a lot of data in the reply messages and I did not read all of them so please take that into consideration;
As for general shot placement or marksmanship with a duty or protection handgun, I'd advise to aim center mass of the subject's torso.
Valid arguements could also be made for aiming at the lower torso.
Former NYPD officer Jim Cirello(check spelling) told his classes at the FLETC, www.fletc.gov how the NYPD police surgeon advised his unit to shoot violent felons in the lower torso to disable them and because of the chance the subjects may have body armor.
Cirello worked on a special undercover detail that tracked armed robbery incidents. He later became a tactics/weapons trainer for the US Customs Service. Cirello was in a auto accident and past away about 3/4 years ago.
ClydeFrog
JustThisGuy
New member
Thanks for all the great discussion and information. There's a lot to digest.
One policeman with a lot of experience writing many decades ago, even before I was born, said the more he learned, the less certain he was about anything. Many writers apparently no longer have that problem and are more certain than ever that they have the answer. Me, I'm not so sure, my experience being rather limited. But I have had some experiences with pain and injury.
A hit to the head can (but not necessarily will) knock you down immediately. Same with some hits in other places, though not with even a .45 to the little finger. The problem is how much does it take to do that. Even so, such a hit may not even come close to being incapacitating. It is merely a knock-down, not a knock out. TKOs don't count.
A broken bone may not necessarily cause incapacitation, much less instant and probably not even pain. The body reacts, more or less quickly, to certain things and one is that pain may be delayed a little. In other words, you experience a sensation more than pain. But the pain will follow. A fracture, unless compound, will result in swelling that tends to temporarily minimize the problem. But a puncture wound is a different thing altogether, although still not necessarily instant or even fast. That's why victims of knive wounds will often have multiple wounds. Unlike in the movies, one puncture with a stiletto isn't enough. Lethal nevertheless.
Different people will bring different experiences with them and some people have lived rougher lives than others and somehow manage to ignore pain more than most. Boxers are probably a good example and another would be those who simply seem to get into a lot of fights, which I haven't done for a long time and you probably haven't either. On the other hand, the only murder victim I was personally acquainted with was killed while she was asleep in bed. I don't imagine it would have helped if she had a gun under her pillow.
A hit to the head can (but not necessarily will) knock you down immediately. Same with some hits in other places, though not with even a .45 to the little finger. The problem is how much does it take to do that. Even so, such a hit may not even come close to being incapacitating. It is merely a knock-down, not a knock out. TKOs don't count.
A broken bone may not necessarily cause incapacitation, much less instant and probably not even pain. The body reacts, more or less quickly, to certain things and one is that pain may be delayed a little. In other words, you experience a sensation more than pain. But the pain will follow. A fracture, unless compound, will result in swelling that tends to temporarily minimize the problem. But a puncture wound is a different thing altogether, although still not necessarily instant or even fast. That's why victims of knive wounds will often have multiple wounds. Unlike in the movies, one puncture with a stiletto isn't enough. Lethal nevertheless.
Different people will bring different experiences with them and some people have lived rougher lives than others and somehow manage to ignore pain more than most. Boxers are probably a good example and another would be those who simply seem to get into a lot of fights, which I haven't done for a long time and you probably haven't either. On the other hand, the only murder victim I was personally acquainted with was killed while she was asleep in bed. I don't imagine it would have helped if she had a gun under her pillow.
TylerD45ACP
New member
Unlike in the movies, one puncture with a stiletto isn't enough.
-Finally someone said something about knives in film. I hate when they get stuck in the gut with a 2 inch blade go "ahhhhhhh" and die within 3 seconds. Absurd.
-Finally someone said something about knives in film. I hate when they get stuck in the gut with a 2 inch blade go "ahhhhhhh" and die within 3 seconds. Absurd.
warrior poet
New member
Center of mass (or upper thorasic cavity- ie slightly above COM, and heretofore called UTC) is where initial shots should be directed. A hammer pair (controlled pair if they are further away and you need to re-aim.) at COM/ UTC will work much better than a single shot. If it doesn't, then other shots become necessary.
If the target is further away (or moving) a pelvic shot is better than a head shot for a "failure to stop" with your inital COM/ UTC pair. The head is a small target, and the pelvic (or lower abdomen) region is much easier to hit. Common sense dictates ANY hit is better than a miss. Taking the BGs mobility is often enough to end the threat, however, sometimes it isn't. Situation dicates.
If the target is further away (or moving) a pelvic shot is better than a head shot for a "failure to stop" with your inital COM/ UTC pair. The head is a small target, and the pelvic (or lower abdomen) region is much easier to hit. Common sense dictates ANY hit is better than a miss. Taking the BGs mobility is often enough to end the threat, however, sometimes it isn't. Situation dicates.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
Most puncture wounds over three inches deep result in a life threatening situation due to a vital being reached.
That is also why a 22 LR from a two inch barrel or a .25 ACP can be so deadly.
Sometime good things come in small packages.
There is no doubt that a puncture wound can be lethal, possibly more so than a slashing wound. Probably, I'd guess, there are more stab wounds showing up in the emergency room than slashing wounds (cuts) but it's just a guess. Probably more than gunshot wounds, too. Of course, that's only speaking of the ones that make it that far. It's the loss of blood that makes them lethal unless it's exceptionally lucky. Ask any bowhunter. But a bullfighter kills a bull with a sword, too, but there is some risk involved. I understand it is remarkably easy for a blade to enter the body and that's been the cause for some serious accidents. Easier still for a bullet and most have plenty of penetrating ability for an unprotected body. So something more than penetration is necessary for a "stop" if the other person isn't all that willing to stop.
We all seem to agree that a head shot is the best. What we seem to disagree on is the degree of difficulty in making that shot.
The head is easily moved. This movement can turn an instant kill into a nasty gash or even a miss. The head is particularly susceptible to angles. A slight turn of the head can turn a fatal trajectory into a nasty gash or miss. The head is relatively small without factoring in the above, it is the hardest to hit because of this. As a nice bonus we get to increase the difficulty by adding the stress of a life and death struggle. An ingredient that simply cannot be duplicated for practice. So unless you have been there before you cannot predict how it will effect you.
Armed with this knowledge us pelvic girdle shooters are prepared should the head become impossible to hit.
The head is easily moved. This movement can turn an instant kill into a nasty gash or even a miss. The head is particularly susceptible to angles. A slight turn of the head can turn a fatal trajectory into a nasty gash or miss. The head is relatively small without factoring in the above, it is the hardest to hit because of this. As a nice bonus we get to increase the difficulty by adding the stress of a life and death struggle. An ingredient that simply cannot be duplicated for practice. So unless you have been there before you cannot predict how it will effect you.
Armed with this knowledge us pelvic girdle shooters are prepared should the head become impossible to hit.
Tactical Alex
New member
I'd have to say that while a head shot might be best for ensuring the threat is removed my own experience has made me a firm believer in COM. There are too many "what ifs" to go over for specific issues, but even if hitting someone with a vest you put a few rounds into COM and the target at the very least will be on the ground giving you the precious seconds you need to get away, and unless you're in a combat zone that's pretty much the only thing you're trying to accomplish.
Not to mention that if you go COM and pull your shot high you have the chance of getting a head shot anyway, or pull low and you'll get that Abdomen. For practical shooting I'd stick with COM.
If you're talking about damage, I have a good friend that was a Field Combat Medic for many years, and his opinion is that (removing the head shot scenario) an array of shots throughout the upper torso in general has better results for ending a threat rather than a tight shot group in any one place. I'll see if I can find the article he wrote and post it here, but I've been having trouble tracking it down. My apologies for that.
Not to mention that if you go COM and pull your shot high you have the chance of getting a head shot anyway, or pull low and you'll get that Abdomen. For practical shooting I'd stick with COM.
If you're talking about damage, I have a good friend that was a Field Combat Medic for many years, and his opinion is that (removing the head shot scenario) an array of shots throughout the upper torso in general has better results for ending a threat rather than a tight shot group in any one place. I'll see if I can find the article he wrote and post it here, but I've been having trouble tracking it down. My apologies for that.
TylerD45ACP
New member
Absolutley. I head shot with a pistol or 12 gauge when 2 guys with AK's, 2 HKG3, shortened M16, each with a 92fs and 3,500 plus rounds of ammo on them. By the end the BG's had fired 1300 rounds over 44 Minutes. That is about a round every 2 seconds. That scenario must have been insanity. Police cars were turned to swiss cheese. I think they should of put the armored truck into action sooner using it as like a ram. Then shoot out the ports of the truck.
I suppose the level of difficulty may come from how you usually shoot and practice, as well as how much you do both.
If you normally shoot at a range where you shoot standing still, gun already in hand, facing targets that are also still (and not even "people" targets), and thats the only way you practice and use that to determine your skill level, then youre likely not to do as well when things become more active.
Making your practice a little more pro active, realistic, and energetic, just continues to pay dividends, and builds confidence like you wouldnt believe. You soon realize that things that are supposed to be so hard to do, really arent at all.
The number of people I know who actually shoot and practice "realistically", and who practice with what they carry, while wearing it as they carry it, and shoot from there, are a lot less than those who just stand at a bench and pop them off.
Moving and shooting seems to be a very foreign concept to many. The same people who shoot tiny groups at the bench and proudly show you, scoff at you when you ask how they do when they draw their gun form concealment as they move off line and shoot while moving past the target.
Ak103K, I practice the way Roger Phillips suggested using the FSR as often as possible given the need to use the private portion of the range out in Dade City Florida.
I'm making my assumptions based on my experience in competitive shooting. I saw my groups explode in size with just the pressure of a timer. I would sometimes forget how I had planned to most efficiently shoot a course of fire when the buzzer sounded. I always did well however my targets weren't moving or shooting back either.
I firmly believe that those of us who practice as we expect to fight will do much better than those who hit only the static range. I also believe that the head will be hard as heck to hit under that pressure.
I'm making my assumptions based on my experience in competitive shooting. I saw my groups explode in size with just the pressure of a timer. I would sometimes forget how I had planned to most efficiently shoot a course of fire when the buzzer sounded. I always did well however my targets weren't moving or shooting back either.
I firmly believe that those of us who practice as we expect to fight will do much better than those who hit only the static range. I also believe that the head will be hard as heck to hit under that pressure.
I think "everything" will be hard to hit under pressure, if you dont practice to do it, and have it down beforehand. If you dont practice the head shots, they probably will be a problem, just like the COM shots you didnt practice while moving, or drawing and firing from concealment, etc. The less you practice realistically, the more it will show, under any kind of pressure. Everything you can work out beforehand, allows your brain to work on the important stuff without having to worry about it too. Do you think about the presentation, or breaking the shot, or do you just think "guns" and do it?
I just dont see wasting rounds on the pelvis, if thats not going to stop the fight, which I dont believe it will if your opponent is the least bit determined, why waste the ammo? Would you stop shooting if you were hit in the pelvis and went down? To me, that part is the clincher. Both targets are about the same size, both may be moving, and one will likely stop the fight, where the other just has a higher chance of prolonging it, even allowing your opponent the opportunity for just a lucky (for him) shot. He may be down, but theres a high probability, hes not going to be out.
As far as "pressure" goes, it is what you make of it. The whole purpose of working things out ahead of time is to short circuit or redirect that response and allow your brain to work on the problem at hand with less distractions. A gun fight is no different than any other kind of fight (or stressful problem). You go into it with what you have and deal with it as best as you can with what you know. Other than certain "thresholds" crossed, there really is no "plan", as there really cant be. You act/react as it unfolds.
Experience and knowledge tends to reduce pressure and enhance confidence, making things go a little easier. Time is basically irrelevant, as it takes what it takes, and if youre worried about beating the clock, youre likely to beat yourself worrying about the clock. Concentrate on doing what needs done, and do it right the first time. Rushing and screwing up, is worse than being slow and sure.
I just dont see wasting rounds on the pelvis, if thats not going to stop the fight, which I dont believe it will if your opponent is the least bit determined, why waste the ammo? Would you stop shooting if you were hit in the pelvis and went down? To me, that part is the clincher. Both targets are about the same size, both may be moving, and one will likely stop the fight, where the other just has a higher chance of prolonging it, even allowing your opponent the opportunity for just a lucky (for him) shot. He may be down, but theres a high probability, hes not going to be out.
As far as "pressure" goes, it is what you make of it. The whole purpose of working things out ahead of time is to short circuit or redirect that response and allow your brain to work on the problem at hand with less distractions. A gun fight is no different than any other kind of fight (or stressful problem). You go into it with what you have and deal with it as best as you can with what you know. Other than certain "thresholds" crossed, there really is no "plan", as there really cant be. You act/react as it unfolds.
Experience and knowledge tends to reduce pressure and enhance confidence, making things go a little easier. Time is basically irrelevant, as it takes what it takes, and if youre worried about beating the clock, youre likely to beat yourself worrying about the clock. Concentrate on doing what needs done, and do it right the first time. Rushing and screwing up, is worse than being slow and sure.
