Colt&FN get M16 Contracts
- Thread starter HappyGunner
- Start date
Not really. The test was basically altered after the first round because the M4 malfunctioned about once every six rounds using Colt's suggested oiling method. After they came up with a new lubrication scheme just for the test, then they were able to get it up to one jam in 88 rounds. Who hoo!.
Obviously, there is nothing I can say. The facts are facts. Most of the bad stuff about the XM-8 and 416 is rumor and or/fabrications by people who have decided the M4 is "the best" or "good enuff." Endless claims are made with nothing to back it up. All we know is, when objective testing is done, EVERYBODY else beat the M16 and M4. As for the XM-8, the military tried to adopt it without all the red tape and rigamaroll. Christopher Dodd and Joe Lieberman, along with the rest of the Colt's politicians got the rifle canned because Colt didn't get a chance to compete (apparently, 40 years of putting out a substandard rifle was enough for the Army).
Ahh Greg your not able to crush my soul even with the full backing of HK lol
The G36 and its off spring is the ultimate British Aerospace/ Sterling AR18, though BA no longer owns HK, the legacy of it lives on. If 100 organizations each own 200 rifles, does that make it universal? When the same question is posed about the P90 PDW on the internet, its deemed a resounding no.
The HK does have one thing going for it, and thats its overall price which makes it more cost effective in initial unit procurement than the M4 from Colt when purchased by anyone that isnt buying 300,000 units at a time(then Colt gives a really nice price break) Hell we can get a G36 cheaper than a MP5 these days at departmental cost. On the all guns melt front, the M16 and variants will warp a gas tube before it destroys the barrel or receiver- while that does put it out of action, its not permately harmed. Sources? being in on tests at Blackwater( you DONT want a XCR rifle either, they pulled out of the tests due to breakage, the SAR21 made it though ok though)
Im glad you love your HK's( I like my P7) but dont try to sell us that they are without problems/23rd century tech made from materials salvaged from Roswell lol.
I do miss ol' Phil Singleton being head of HK training Div, we knocked back a pint or two back in the day.(and it was intertaining to see the USAF combat arms folks as he er ah "damaged" thier rifle range with a HK69) and base housing called the Security Police because bullets was hitting their roofs after going vertical at the berm.(HK21)
So do you get a paycheck from HK ,or are you just an avid fan?
The G36 and its off spring is the ultimate British Aerospace/ Sterling AR18, though BA no longer owns HK, the legacy of it lives on. If 100 organizations each own 200 rifles, does that make it universal? When the same question is posed about the P90 PDW on the internet, its deemed a resounding no.
The HK does have one thing going for it, and thats its overall price which makes it more cost effective in initial unit procurement than the M4 from Colt when purchased by anyone that isnt buying 300,000 units at a time(then Colt gives a really nice price break) Hell we can get a G36 cheaper than a MP5 these days at departmental cost. On the all guns melt front, the M16 and variants will warp a gas tube before it destroys the barrel or receiver- while that does put it out of action, its not permately harmed. Sources? being in on tests at Blackwater( you DONT want a XCR rifle either, they pulled out of the tests due to breakage, the SAR21 made it though ok though)
Im glad you love your HK's( I like my P7) but dont try to sell us that they are without problems/23rd century tech made from materials salvaged from Roswell lol.
I do miss ol' Phil Singleton being head of HK training Div, we knocked back a pint or two back in the day.(and it was intertaining to see the USAF combat arms folks as he er ah "damaged" thier rifle range with a HK69) and base housing called the Security Police because bullets was hitting their roofs after going vertical at the berm.(HK21)
So do you get a paycheck from HK ,or are you just an avid fan?
The US Army finally acknowledged what veterans on combat has said for years, the M4/M16 work better when well lubed. The training manual was written by supply line people where it's easier to store weapons with less lube. Colt hasn't been involved in writing the training manuals in years. Hk also recommends applying "generous" amounts of lube on the 416 IIRC.
The M16 wasn't included in that test because it wasn't one of the weapon systems being considered. The M-16 has the rifle length gas system which lowers the amount of junk that enters the weapon, as such it has fewer stoppages then the M-4 with it's carbine length gas system. As I said in the past thread "seven times better" is useless without stoppages. Particularly considered the XM8 has 11 stoppages that required an armorer to fix (about 10% of all it's stoppages), so yeah it has less stoppages but the ones it had were much much worse then the average stoppage on an M4 or M16 (only 2%).
HappyGunner
New member
Lookout
LOOKOUT Colt, FN, H&K CERBERUS is coming
LOOKOUT Colt, FN, H&K CERBERUS is coming
PPGMD,
Hahahaha. That is proof that you must be having fun in your defense of the M4. The M4 had almost TWICE as many malfunctions that needed an armorer vs the XM8. The only reason you were able to cook the percentage so high on the XM8 was because it had SO FEW MALFUNCTIONS.
In summary, the uncooked numbers are these...
H&K XM8, came out the winner, with a total of 116 minor stoppages and 11 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem.
The M4 experienced a total of 863 minor stoppages and 19 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem.
I thought you were just arguing for the fun of it. I have caught you now!
Hahahaha. That is proof that you must be having fun in your defense of the M4. The M4 had almost TWICE as many malfunctions that needed an armorer vs the XM8. The only reason you were able to cook the percentage so high on the XM8 was because it had SO FEW MALFUNCTIONS.
In summary, the uncooked numbers are these...
H&K XM8, came out the winner, with a total of 116 minor stoppages and 11 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem.
The M4 experienced a total of 863 minor stoppages and 19 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem.
I thought you were just arguing for the fun of it. I have caught you now!
And your seven times number is any less cooked, because you neglects to mention that the stoppage rates are for 60,000 rounds fired in the worst possible conditions. The percentages work out to very minor differences between the weapon systems in the long run. Only the M4 has less then a 99% run rate, and only just barely.
But I think it's pretty had that the XM8 has so many major stoppages when the other two competitors to the M4 had zero stoppages that required an armorer to fix. To me that number is more telling, I would rather have a weapon that had 800 stoppages and zero requiring an armorer, then one with 130 and 11 requiring an armorer.
As I mentioned in the original thread I would like to see an AK tested, and try different magazines and other changes to the M-4. For example the heavy profile barrel (what the 416 and other piston guns use), and the LMT SOPMOD II bolt.
Picture of the M-4s as they came out of the dust chamber:
But I think it's pretty had that the XM8 has so many major stoppages when the other two competitors to the M4 had zero stoppages that required an armorer to fix. To me that number is more telling, I would rather have a weapon that had 800 stoppages and zero requiring an armorer, then one with 130 and 11 requiring an armorer.
As I mentioned in the original thread I would like to see an AK tested, and try different magazines and other changes to the M-4. For example the heavy profile barrel (what the 416 and other piston guns use), and the LMT SOPMOD II bolt.
Picture of the M-4s as they came out of the dust chamber:
P99,
Fair warning. You will be bored!!!!! Muhahahahhaha!
Nope, the G36 (HK50) was already going when BAE bought them in 91. Good pseudo-history though.
When various other spec-ops groups adopt your rifle, and entire national militaries, you are doing alright. Again, what new assault rifle has done better in the last 30 years? I agree that the AR-15 and Ak-47 have done better, but they had a big head start. But the only other guns in serious distribution were guns like the FNC, Steyr Aug, Famas and SA-80. None of which have had anything like the success of the G36. Further, the G36 came along right at the end of the cold war, which was a DEAD time for weapons procurement.
Any actual sources that show the testing results? No offense.
The straw man you just beat is ready to discuss the terms of his surrender.
They outta send me a damn check!!
Fair warning. You will be bored!!!!! Muhahahahhaha!
Nope, the G36 (HK50) was already going when BAE bought them in 91. Good pseudo-history though.
When various other spec-ops groups adopt your rifle, and entire national militaries, you are doing alright. Again, what new assault rifle has done better in the last 30 years? I agree that the AR-15 and Ak-47 have done better, but they had a big head start. But the only other guns in serious distribution were guns like the FNC, Steyr Aug, Famas and SA-80. None of which have had anything like the success of the G36. Further, the G36 came along right at the end of the cold war, which was a DEAD time for weapons procurement.
Any actual sources that show the testing results? No offense.
The straw man you just beat is ready to discuss the terms of his surrender.
They outta send me a damn check!!
No, my number is not misleading at all. The simple fact is that the XM8 performed about seven times better than the M4. You played switcheroo by trying to make it look like the M4 had fewer serious malfunctions by citing it as a percentage of overall jams (which the M4 had a ton). The M4 has a crapload more jams, and nearly twice as many malfunctions so bad an armorer was needed.
Agreed! Of course, the other guns malfunctioned a lot more than the XM-8. But I agree with you, I would take a gun that has a twice as many minor jams than one will take me out of service. Of course, using that, the LAST gun you want is the M4, which is the king of both.
Me too. Plus, I sure would like to see more info about this test.
I agree, if your goal is to minimize the M4's shortcomings.
What we know is, that the M4 jammed an average of once every 68 rounds if you divide the total number of rounds by the total number of jams. The XM8, using the same method, jammed every 472 rounds. We don't know when the guns started jamming, but we know those are the averages.
68 rounds vs. 472 rounds. In other words, a little over two mags for the M4, and nearly 16 mags for the XM8.
Pretty damning.
dixierifleman
Moderator
my brand new M16A4 is made by FN. ive seen FN and Colt M16A4s and A2s.
WildAlaska said:
That may be the reason Colt receives contracts as a small business. If you don't know, if a business gets themselves classified as a small business, (they hit bingo if they are classified as "small, disadvantaged, female owned, minority business” ) that business gets preferential treatment in the awarding of Government contracts. Call it Equal Opportunity. Colt has been gaming the system.
That may be the reason Colt receives contracts as a small business. If you don't know, if a business gets themselves classified as a small business, (they hit bingo if they are classified as "small, disadvantaged, female owned, minority business” ) that business gets preferential treatment in the awarding of Government contracts. Call it Equal Opportunity. Colt has been gaming the system.
Sturmgewehre
New member
Yup, thanks for responding for me. I forgot about this thread.
Sturmgewehre
New member
We ran this G36K until it melted around the locking nut for the barrel and we couldn't get it off.
It didn't take too much abuse to cause this either. We weren't hammering the weapon with magazine after magazine, and we weren't doing 30 round magazine dumps. But after extended firing it did melt. On the other hand I've had my M16 so hot that the gas tube was glowing red and it still ran 100% and I can easily take it all the way down.