colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity?

[1911Tuner]

re:

Anytime there is incidental contact between a firing pin and a primer there is the chance of ignition. It is rare, but it happens.

Not denying that, but...assuming a to-spec length firing pin and a decent spring in a 1911...have you ever seen one allow contact with a primer? Again...if the risk of slam-fire in a pre-Series 80 1911 pistol was all that likely...we'd have it happening all the time.

But we don't.

As for the reported slam-fires with the Garand/M14 design, I have to wonder. We hear of accidental shootings among police officers...with and without injury...being "explained" away as a weapon malfunction when it was actually operator error.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm sort of a mad scientist. When I hear of things like this...if it doesn't seem to make sense...I don't automatically take anybody's word for it. I work to try and duplicate it, and I work hard at it...even stacking the deck to give it the best chance. I once tried to get a 1911 to slam fire without the hammer tripping by removing the FP spring and extractor...loading a round into the chamber...and releasing the slide with the slidestop. After about 50 strikes, I gave up. It never happened.

So, how many of these things that are reported as slam-fire malfunctions are actually CYA for the brass?

I have to wonder.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't know what we are debating.

I have had one slamfire in a AR15, witnessed one, I had three slamfires in M1 Garands, two out of battery, all with Federal Match primers.

One gentleman I shoot with had two in battery slamfires in his AR15's with Federal primers and decided to change primers.

If you shoot highpower rifle you will either see or meet people who had, or have seen slamfires.

Primer sensitivity varies by primer composition and by technology. Federal primers use normal lead styphnate and federals are well known to be more sensitivity than other brands.

The sensitivity of military primer compositions are "matched" to the characteristics of the weapons they are used in. To a point. The designers of the Garand could not make the 30-06 primer less sensitive because that cartridge was used in a number of other weapons and duding the primer would cause misfires in those other mechanisms. The 30 Carbine was the first of its type and its firing pin is round and solid, like the original round Garand firing pin and it turns out the 30 Carbine primer had the highest drop distance of any US military primer.

It may take a lot of weapons and rounds out there before the slamfire potential of a mechanism becomes apparent. This was obviously true of the Garand and it was true of the AR15. Both the Garand and the AR15 went through troop trials, design tests, before it became obvious that the mechanisms would slamfire. For both systems the Army lightened the firing pins and for the AR15, made the #41 primer less sensitive than the commercial primers the cartridge had been loaded to that date. It turned out that the less sensitive primer caused misfires in Stoner’s later weapon designs as the later Stoner modular weapon system mechanism did not have as much ignition energy as his AR15. Most embarrassing for Stoner.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

I have had one slamfire in a AR15, witnessed one, I had three slamfires in M1 Garands, two out of battery, all with Federal Match primers.

When firing or when chambering a round?

Yeah. Federal primers present a special problem with gas rifles. I won't even use'em in an auto feed tube.

If you shoot highpower rifle you will either see or meet people who had, or have seen slamfires.

I have. I've seen a few claimed slamfires, but was unable to duplicate it with the same rifle in several attempts...which leads me to believe that they actually bump-fired. So, I've got me doubts, lad. I've got me doubts.

But this is about 1911 pistols. I only used the M1/M14 analogy to show that if those only slam fire rarely...and usually only with soft primers...then a spring loaded inertial firing pin isn't a concern...Series 80 or not.

Another one of my favorite myths to debunk with the 1911 is the out of battery kaboom...but that's meat for another debate.

 

[polyphemus]

Not surprisingly I seem to be living in the past,which was about a certain safety
device in some M1911 pistols.The ghost of tolerance stack came up,dear unto my heart it is,within a plastic trigger replacement issue (don't those people ship plastic main spring housings too?) anyway the critical dimension here is the length from the back of the pad to the leading edge of the bow but this can be
skewed by different shapes of pad so the bottom line is anything goes as long as it works,I get it now.

 

[Slamfire]

I have had one slamfire in a AR15, witnessed one, I had three slamfires in M1 Garands, two out of battery, all with Federal Match primers.

When firing or when chambering a round?

AR Slamfire, with the new brass WSR, dropped a round in the chamber during the standing stage, hit the bolt release with my right hand, and the round went off taking a divot out of the dirt in front of the firing line. My hand was not on the trigger.

For the one I witnessed, the shooter was shooting standing and the same thing happened. He was using federal primers and I got to talk with him this year, and he had another standing stage with federals and that was the last he used federals in his AR15.

My Garand slamfires, first one sitting rapid fire, last round in the 8 round clip slamfired out of battery. Federal primers. Second one, standing stage, put a round in the SLED, pulled on the operating rod, the round slamfired in battery, federal match primer. Third one, firing from bench sighting a new match Garand from the clip, the rifle slamfired out of battery. Federal match primers. All of my 30-06 were from the same 5000 primer lot of federal match primers, that lot may have been particularly sensitive, or I was just unlucky. I am still using the trigger mechanisms of from the Garands that slamfired. They are mechanically correct and do not follow.

I have never bump fired a rifle. I have been shooting semiautos for decades now, I shoot with the rifle firmly in the shoulder. When shooting from position I have a tight sling.

I have collected lots of slamfire accounts, they happen in rifles. The most slamfiring rifle on the market is the Garand. M1a slamfires are rare, probably due to the lesser number. Foreign rifles with heavy firing pin have an unusually high number of slamfire accounts considering the low numbers of them out there.

You will never hear of a firing pin initated out of battery slamfire in a roller bolt, and I will bet you will never hear of a firing pin initated slamfire in battery either. The firing pin assembly does not move forward till the lugs are extended and the firing pin spring is very strong. It is so strong that I had to take it off to get the firing pin assembly to go forward for this picture.

AR15 slamfires were frequent enough that the NRA forbid loading on the shooting stool. And I know why. When you had a M1a you could load on the stool because slamfires did not happen on the stool due to rifle orientation and magazine friction. When shooting standing it was common practice, while at port arms, to press a round in the magazine then rest the rifle, butt down, bolt open on the stool, while your target was being scored. Sometimes you would see guys hit the bolt release on the stool as they brought the rifle back to port arms prior to cheeking the rifle. With the muzzle up, gravity was working against the bolt and the bolt was slowed by magazine friction. However, you cannot press a round in the magazine of an AR through the ejection port. Instead, I saw AR shooters put the muzzle of their rifle on the stool, drop a round through the port into the chamber, hit the bolt release, then bring the rifle up. Gravity was working with the bolt and increased the kinetic energy of the firing pin. Enough highpower shooters had slamfires through their stool, blowing metal fragments and dirt all over everyone around them, that this practice was forbidden.

 

[1911Tuner]

Slammin'

Wow.

We never used to have problems like that. We didn't use AR-15 rifles in those days, though. Maybe it was the CCI primers and the GI ball ammunition we shot on the 200-yard stage.

Anyway...back to the slam-firing 1911 question.

 

[Slamfire]

A good reason your ball ammunition did not have slamfires is due to the work in the early 60's by the military to use less sensitive primers and lighten the firing pin. This is a matter of record:

APPENDIX 4 REPORT OF THE M16 RIFLE REVIEW PANEL

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA953114

Primer Sensitivity

Initial Specifications. Ammunition specifications established by the Air Force on 24 January 1963 provided for quality control against cocked, inverted, loose, and nicked primers. The specifications further provided for inspection and test of waterproofing
and the crimp of primers. However, the specifications did not provide for specific limitations on primer sensitivity for 5.56mm ammunition.-

Development. At the first meeting of the Technical Coordinating Committee on 26 March 1963,16 / the Air Force representatives submitted a list of reported ammunition deficiencies, which included "high primers" and "primers too sensitive". It was agreed that Frankford Arsenal would investigate the matter and recommend corrective action.

One of the malfunctions reported by the Air Force was the premature firing of cartridges that occurred upon initial charging of the M16 rifle with a cartridge from the magazine, or upon singleloading of a cartridge directly into the chamber, or when two rounds were fired at one trigger pull during semiautomatic fire.

This malfunction was attributed to "high" or protruding primers, although the tests did not confirm this theory..

However, analysis indicates that if high primers caused the premature firing, the firing should have occurred upon impact of the bolt face with the protruding primer. At this point in the weapon cycle, the bolt head would not. have been rotated to the locked position by action of the cam pin and carrier. Had firing occurred with the bolt in the unlocked position, it would have resulted in a blow back and would not have been undetected. No such disruptions were reported-. Since premature firing occurred after bolt-locking, it must have coincided in time with the impact of the bolt carrier against the bolt head. At the instant of impact, the "free floating" firing pin is moving at the velocity of the bolt carrier. The kinetic energy of the pin must be dissipated by such frictional forces as it encounters in the forward movement, and, finally, in impact of the firing pin tip with the primer of the chambered cartridge. This premise was confirmed by the visible indentation appearing on cartridges which were chambered by the mechanism and extracted unfired.

Frankford Arsenal identified test procedures for measuring firing pin energy and recommended limits for primer sensitivity.

These procedures were designed to measure the indent depth of the firing pin upon the primer cup. Tests are conducted by dropping steel balls of known weights from various measured heights upon a device containing a firing pin and a primed case assembly.

Using this procedure and measuring the energy in inch-ounces, Frankford Arsenal was able to develop test data upon which to recommend a lower limit of "none-to-fire" and an upper limit of "all-to-fire".


It recommended that primers be manufactured so that the none-to-fire limit should be not less than 16 inch-ounces of energy and the all-to-fire limit should be not greater than 64 inch-ounces of energy.

Picture from AR15.com The top firing pin is the early, heavy firing pin.

Primers are not as predictable as we want. Any time there is incidental contact with a primer there is a very small probability, a very very small probability, but finite, that the thing will ignite.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sidesho...ide-woman-purse-shoots-her-leg-232052308.html

By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow – Tue, Jun 12, 2012

A Pennsylvania woman was shot in the leg while shopping at a local department store on Tuesday. But in a nearly unbelievable twist, no gun was involved. Apparently, the woman was carrying the bullet in her purse, when it mysteriously exploded.

"She did not have a gun in her purse or on her," Montoursville Deputy Police Chief Jason Bentley told the Williamsport Sun-Gazette. Bentley said the woman, whose name has not been released to the public, "was not aware" she was carrying two or three bullets inside her purse at the time of the accident.

The 56-year-old woman was taken to a local hospital and was eventually discharged. In fact, the woman initially declined medical treatment, only heading to the Williamsport Regional Medical Center after her son reportedly encouraged her to do so.

"Something must of hit the primer of one of the bullets," Bentley said. "The bullet stayed in the purse, but its casing put a hole in the purse and caused a minor leg wound."

Bullets exploding outside of a gun are a rare occurrence but are not entirely unprecedented. In March, a bullet being used as evidence in a court case exploded in a bag and shot 20 feet across a courtroom. No one was hurt in the incident. It was surmised that the bullet exploded after its tip bounced against another bullet tip in the same evidence bag, according to the Telegram & Gazette.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

I remember seeing the heavy M16 firing pins, but never in any issue rifles. I quit shooting High Power competition before they came onto the scene, and in those days, we used the free ball ammo for 200 yards, and saved the M118 Lake City stuff for 300 and 600 yards. Then, the trend was to pull the 173 grain bullets and reload the cases with Sierra Matchkings and the same powder charge. We shot the M14s with the selector lock silver-soldered in. On loan, we had to give'em up if we pulled out. Mine was a Winchester. Damn good rifle.

I started reloading the LC Match brass with the Matchkings and 42.5 grains IMR 4895 and CCI primers...because we understood from the light primer dents what could happen with more touchy primers.

Shortly after that, my eyes started to go south and I gave it up...around 1983. Too much time and money spent just to burn up ammo. I stayed in it at a local club for a time. With only 200 yards available, I figured I could make a decent showing with a Garand and the giveaway ammo...and we got to keep the clips.

If the new shooters are getting slam fires that often, it might be time to reconsider their choice of primers. Any slight advantage with soft primers ain't worth the risk. I know that I'd much rather shoot Maggie's Bloomers all day than hurt anybody. Unless they've stopped production, CCI markets tougher Mil-Spec primers expressly for the slam-bang gas rifles.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I must be lost. I could have sworn the title of this thread was "colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity?"

There's no better way to prove you've lost the debate than to take it completely off-topic. Just sayin' ...

 

[WVsig]

Where is a mod when you need one. LOL This thread is so far off topic.

In my experience the Colts 80 series firing pin safety is a solid design and is reliable. Does that mean it cannot fail? NO but is is likely to? NO!

I have guns which have the 80 series parts and some that do not. I trust all of them to go bang when I need them to. YMMV.

 

[1911Tuner]

OT

Whoops.

Yeah. These things sometimes take on a life of their own.

But, what the hey. The original question was answered 3-4 times...

 

[Slamfire]

But, what the hey. The original question was answered 3-4 times...

I thought everything was essentially over when I read this:

I've seen firing pin stops fall out of position, stop on the hammer, and tie pistols up. I've seen them fall completely out onto the ground and bean the shooter with the firing pin and spring. Anything that can happen eventually will happen to somebody.

I just enjoy getting on my soap box about primer sensitivity.

 

[polyphemus]

This thread is a continuous learning experience,so far I'm not carrying bullets in my purse,definitely not buying one of of those self discharging rifles and the series 80 firing pin block?nobody cares any more.CCI primers are the cat's meow
even though the small ones don't use lead salt anymore right?

 

[SPEMack618]

The simple answer is...it depends. Some aftermarket triggers will and others won't. That's why Colt offers different plunger levers to accommodate for different trigger dimensions.

The most likely trouble spot comes with overtravel screws not allowing the trigger to move far enough to provide enough lift

Okay, next question, on my Series 80 gun, thee woul no way then to jus replace the actual trigger without affecting travel, lenght of pull, etc?

All I really want to do is get rid of the plastic trigger and still maintain the current pull, safety, and reliability the gun has now.

 

[gwnorth]

Okay, next question, on my Series 80 gun, thee woul no way then to jus replace the actual trigger without affecting travel, lenght of pull, etc?

All I really want to do is get rid of the plastic trigger and still maintain the current pull, safety, and reliability the gun has now.

Just curious, but what is it about the polymer trigger you dislike so much? I have a Colt Gov't enhanced from the 1990's with the polymer trigger pad, and a newer Commander with the aluminum trigger pad, and both work just fine. Even now after some 20years, the polymner trigger pad has no noticeable wear. I just cannot see the point of swapping it out is all, especially if all is working just fine (and assuming you do not want a completely different trigger pad profile, like a straight trigger or such).

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Okay, next question, on my Series 80 gun, thee woul no way then to jus replace the actual trigger without affecting travel, lenght of pull,
etc?

I wouldn't say that there's no way. There's a good chance that nothing would change...or at least not enough to make a difference in the function of the Series 80 system. Travel and length of pull? I seriously doubt if there would be enough difference for you to be able to detect it unless you use the overtravel screw...and that would only have an effect on the travel after the break.

However...The overtravel screw can affect proper Series 80 function. If you use it, be sure and check the height that the plunger lever reaches as outlined.

Or...pretravel tabs available on some aftermarket triggers would affect the take-up. Careful with that, too or you can get hammer followdown to half-cock.

 

[SPEMack618]

Just curious, but what is it about the polymer trigger you dislike so much?

A few things, one of which being I find it too "skinny" as in my finger engulfs it when I grip the gun. A friend has a Kimber SIS that has what appars and feels to be a substantially larger trigger on it that I much prefer.

Secondly, I have found that the trigger, on my gun, atleast, seems to have an inordinate amount of "play" which I don't like.

And to top it all off, I think it is just down right ugly, but if there were a way to correct the first two, I could deal with that.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

A few things, one of which being I find it too "skinny" as in my finger engulfs it when I grip the gun.

That's more because of the convex shape of the face than anything. Unless the pistol in question is a Colt Gold Cup, the triggers are all pretty much the same thickness, +/- whatever the allowable tolerance is.

They are pretty sloppy vertically, though...and that's an issue for some people. It does allow for quite a bit of fouling in the shoe portion of the channel without causing problems, though.

They're also light/low-mass and less likely to bring on hammer follow problems than even the aluminum triggers.

And to top it all off, I think it is just down right ugly, but if there were a way to correct the first two, I could deal with that.

The long nylon triggers are intended to look and function pretty much like the original, pre-A1 milled triggers...which they do...at least from a respectable distance. They look cheap, but they're actually pretty decent triggers as far as durability goes.

 

[Slopemeno]

We drilled and tapped a few of the plastic triggers for overtravel stops, and they worked fine. That's really not a bad part.

 

[polyphemus]

"And to top it all off, I think it is just down right ugly,"
Plastic triggers,plastic main spring housings,plastic frames,what will they think up next?