colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity?

[1911Tuner]

re:

It is not a safety device, it's an idocracy invented to make some queer lawyer happy or maybe as a marketing strategy to sell more guns as 'new and improved'.

In a civil litigation, it wouldn't matter. All that would matter is that you deactivated a designed-in safety device, and would be used to show reckless disregard.

There are already three safety devices on a series 70: The hammer and slide lock, the grip/trigger lock, and of course the trigger itself

There is no hammer lock. The manual safety doesn't lock or block the hammer. If the sear were to suddenly disintegrate into dust, the hammer will fall, and it'll wipe the thumb safety off faster than you can do it with your thumb. Bang. It's fortunate that this isn't likely to happen.

The US military used the series 70 for how many years?

The US military never issued a Series 70 pistol.

That said, I'm not a fan of Series 80 "Lawyer" parts. I much prefer the original design, and all my carry pistols are of that design...even though I've never had a single problem with any of the numerous intact Series 80 pistols that I've owned.

I removed the parts from my beaters for one reason. I shoot a lot, and 99.9% of my ammunition is handloaded with my home-cast bullets and soft lube. Nasty stuff that requires fairly frequent detail stripping...about every 2000-2500 rounds...and I got tired of fiddling with the extra parts. The spacer simplifies the process and saves time, which is at a premium for me.

The removal of the plunger and tiny spring in the slide eliminates the possibility of losing one or the other. With my aging eyes, the probability of finding the spring is nearly zip. Even though I know how to remove it with minimal risk of loss...Murphy is alive and well, and he never sleeps.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

NO gunsmith worth his or her salt will de-activate a factory installed safety device

I remove them all the time, and never looked back once. It is not a safety device, it's an idocracy invented to make some queer lawyer happy or maybe as a marketing strategy to sell more guns as 'new and improved'.

It most certainly is a safety device, and the reason for it has been well-stated. If it were only a Colt marketing ploy, why is the exact same system also used by Para USA, SIG Arms, Remington, Taurus, Kahr/Auto-Ordnance, and a few other 1911 makers I can't recall at the moment? And then there's Kimber and Smith & Wesson, each of whom uses a different mechanism to accomplish the same purpose.

Are you a professional gunsmith? If so, you are the first I have ever heard of who will remove this (or any) safety from a firearm. In fact, I have heard of professional gunsmiths who won't accept a series 80 1911 in for work if the firing pin safety has been removed, unless the owner of the pistol agrees to allow the 'smith to re-install it. There's a very simple reason: Liability.

I used to prefer 1911s without the firing pin safety for carry as well as range. (Despite the fact that my competition pistols have the safety intact and have excellent triggers measuring about 3-3/4 pounds.) After reading Walt Kuleck's report on the results of his and Drake's drop tests, I have retired any non-Series 80 pistols from the carry rotation.

 

[nicknitro71]

All that would matter is that you deactivated a designed-in safety device, and would be used to show reckless disregard.

No, it just showed that I have converted the gun the way it was ORIGINALLY designed by a guy smarter than all the people from Colt combined.

There is no hammer lock. The manual safety doesn't lock or block the hammer.

Chicken and egg as the sear is locked to the HAMMER with the manual safety.

The US military never issued a Series 70 pistol.

Really? Prior to the Beretta 92 they must have issued series 80s then?

So what side gun did the US military had from 1911 to 1990?

It was called M1911 and by all means it was a series 70 not an 80.

Are you a professional gunsmith?

Yes I'm a gunsmith but it is not my profession and yes I do not accept the series 80 at all and I'll be more than glad to convert any series 80 into 70 any day of the week. Sue me if you like.

so, you are the first I have ever heard of who will remove this (or any) safety from a firearm

At last first at something!

These guys must be completely nuts too selling this spacer then:

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/frame-parts/frame-hardware/fillers/tj-s-1911-series-80-to-series-70-conversion-shims-prod13121.aspx#.UK5-rXcVkfA

I just recognize the brilliance of John's original design and the absurdity of the series 80.

Happy thanksgiving and please get rid of that idiotic plumbing! See you in court!

 

[1911Tuner]

Really? Prior to the Beretta 92 they must have issued series 80s then?

So what side gun did the US military had from 1911 to 1990?

The US military never issued a "Series" anything.

It was called M1911 and by all means it was a series 70 not an 80.

Colt Series 70 pistols were introduced in 1973. Series 70 identifies those pistols that were equipped with collet bushings and Accurizer (tm) barrels, which were the forerunners of today's barrels with enlarged muzzles. In the early days of the Series 80...introduced in 1983...a few were also equipped with the barrel and bushing, but this was due to Colt not being wasteful. For a short time, Series 70 and Series 80 pistols were being produced at the same time.

There were no Series 70 Commanders...lightweight or otherwise. All Series 70 Colts were 5-inch pistols. Neither were there any Series 70 Springfields or Kimbers, etc. Series 70 and Series 80 are Colt trademarks, although the term "Series 70" has come to be taken as "Doesn't have the lawyer parts."

And the thumb safety doesn't "lock" the sear. It blocks the sear's movement, but doesn't lock it. Correctly fitted, it barely touches the sear, and in some pistols, it doesn't even touch it. Because the hammers had long, undersquare hooks, the Army Ordnance specs allowed for .005 inch of sear movement with the safety engaged.

So, no. No sear lock occurs.

The "locked" part of Cocked and Locked refers to the slide.

Yes I'm a gunsmith but it is not my profession and yes I do not accept the series 80 at all and I'll be more than glad to convert any series 80 into 70 any day of the week. Sue me if you like.

I've been wrenchin' on 1911 pistols since 1965, and I don't wish to sue anybody, and what you do as far as removing or disabling mechanical safeties is 100% your call. My comment wasn't directed at you, anyway. It was rather thrown out to give those who would remove theirs another perspective.

And those little frame fillers were never intended to be permanent. Their purpose was originally for gunsmiths who wanted to save time doing trigger jobs...so they wouldn't have to fiddle with the extra parts every time they checked their work.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

These guys must be completely nuts too selling this spacer then:

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-par...x#.UK5-rXcVkfA

And if you read what Brownells says about it, it is intended to be used for bench testing, not for permanent installation.

 

[RickB]

And you should never carry a gun with a round in the chamber, never holster a gun with a cocked hammer, and never shoot the gun unless the manual is being held in the other hand, etc.

 

[SPEMack618]

Okay, Series 80 question here...

I have a -1991A1, and aside from the finish, small sights, and plastic trigger, I have no real problems with it.

The finish I have made pice with, the sights I can fix, however, would it possible to change out the trigger and not substanially alter the gun? Specifically the reliability and saftey of it?

 

[polyphemus]

Fellows did you do any shooting today?
Happy Thanksgiving! and yes John Moses Browning was smarter than all of Colt
pointy headed engineers put together.And that goes for S&W too!

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

The finish I have made pice with, the sights I can fix, however, would it possible to change out the trigger and not substanially alter the gun? Specifically the reliability and saftey of it?

The simple answer is...it depends. Some aftermarket triggers will and others won't. That's why Colt offers different plunger levers to accommodate for different trigger dimensions.

The most likely trouble spot comes with overtravel screws not allowing the trigger to move far enough to provide enough lift.

And if you read what Brownells says about it, it is intended to be used for bench testing, not for permanent installation.

Exactly. It's too soft to be permanent. With mine, I have to use a smooth mill file to dress the flanging around the holes at every detail-strip, and replace the spacer after the 3rd dressing. If the flanges are allowed to get bad enough to contact the sear and keep it from resetting, it can cause all sorts of problems ranging from failure to hold full cock to burst-fire.

 

[polyphemus]

"I have a -1991A1"
Just curious,what make?does that plastic trigger have an OT screw?and why wouldn't a decent after market replacement work without substantially changing anything?You can check functionality without firing the pistol and measure plunger lever lift against the figures above.Plastic grips were standard issue,plastic triggers would probably not cut it.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Just curious,what make?does that plastic trigger have an OT screw?and why wouldn't a decent after market replacement work without substantially changing anything?

Colt Series 80.

No.

If the aftermarket trigger's bow length differs from the OEM trigger, the trigger bar lever and the plunger lever won't be in the same position when the trigger is pulled, and there's no way of knowing until the trigger is installed and the firing pin release timing is checked.

And...

It can go either way, depending on the new trigger's specs. It can just as easily correct a slow timing issue as cause one.

 

[polyphemus]

That goes straight to the heart of the interchangeability issue. Colt and probably all others have proprietary specs so after market replacements can go either way that is if they fit at all.It would be interesting to know though how trigger dimensions are different in this case,a plastic trigger would be a good candidate for permanent removal.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

That goes straight to the heart of the interchangeability issue. Colt and probably all others have proprietary specs so after market replacements can go either way that is if they fit at all.

Well...No, not really. Specs are specs. Since there's no such thing as a perfect dimension, everything must have a tolerance. The interchangeability or lack thereof would be determined more by plus/minus tolerances and tolerance stacking in the parts group.

Sometimes tolerances stack in our favor, and sometimes they stack up against us. All parts involved can be individually within spec, but the stacking can result in the group being slightly out of spec. This is why you find the odd Series 80 system that's a little slow on the uptake...and why Colt produces different plunger levers to compensate when it's discovered. The majority work just fine.

 

[Slamfire]

Drake Oldham's M1911 drop testing:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92823#Post92823

I will agree that the series 80 firing pin block will prevent the firing pin from reaching the primer, unless the trigger is pulled. It will prevent "slamfires".

Mechanisms with free floating firing pins are susceptible to slamfires anytime the firing pin makes contact with a primer.

However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions. I have had the plunger drop down in my series 80 Colt. It has only happened once to me in tens of thousands of rounds fired, but it happened to me. The plunger was down as the slide went forward which stopped the slide and prevented it from going into battery. I had to drop the magazine, clear the weapon, pull the slide back (to figure out what was going on for one thing!!) and once I determined that the plunger had dropped down, I fiddled with the mechanism to get it to go back up in the slide.

This is a malfunction that won’t be cleared by a rack and tap.

The series 80 mechanism is an afterthought, unlike later mechanisms which were part of the design process, and it is not something I want in a self defense pistol. It is fine for a paper punching pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

Slammin'

Mechanisms with free floating firing pins are susceptible to slamfires anytime the firing pin makes contact with a primer.

I think that Mr. Oldham should probably reconsider his comment after careful examination of the way the gun and the Series 80 system functions.

While technically true, the spring-loaded inertial firing pin doesn't really offer much chance of that happening unless the hammer is held at full-cock for an instant, and then jars off as the slide goes home, and even that requires that there's a problem with the sear reset. If the sear resets the way it's supposed to, the half-cock will grab it and arrest the hammer.

Look at the M1 and M14 rifles. The firing pin isn't an inertial type, and there's no spring to oppose it. Eject a fresh round that's chambered during normal cycling, and you'll see a tiny dent from the firing pin every time...yet they don't slam fire on any sort of consistent basis...even with soft commercial primers.

On the Series 80 system...when the gun chambers a round during normal cycling...the trigger is pulled during the cycle, allowing the firing pin to move forward freely...yet we don't get burst-fire unless something else is wrong with the fire control group...neither in a Series 80 nor in a pre-Series 80 pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

And to continue

However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions. I have had the plunger drop down in my series 80 Colt. It has only happened once to me in tens of thousands of rounds fired, but it happened to me.

An old axiom states that anything mechanical is subject to failure. As Master Gunny put it: "Expect your weapon to malfunction."

I've seen firing pin stops fall out of position, stop on the hammer, and tie pistols up. I've seen them fall completely out onto the ground and bean the shooter with the firing pin and spring. Anything that can happen eventually will happen to somebody.

We don't give much weight to what happens once or even occasionally. We look for trends rather than the rare occurrence.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

We don't give much weight to what happens once or even occasionally. We look for trends rather than the rare occurrence.

Further, there is a HUGE difference between something that "may" occur as opposed to something that "will" occur. Slamfire wrote:

However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions.

This is clearly incorrect. If something "will" cause something else to happen, that is an absolute statement of 100 percent certainty. If a Series 80 firing pin system "will" cause failures to fire, after having fired tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of rounds through Colt and Para-Ordnance pistols that are equipped with it, I should have experienced multiple failures to fire due to the Series 80 mechanism. To date, I have experienced zero.

I have also not experienced a broken firing pin, a broken firing pin spring, a broken extractor, or a broken sear. All of these, too, may occur and IF they occur may result in a failure to fire (or to cycle), but it would certainly be a stretch to say that I shouldn't have a firing pin in my pistol because it might break and cause a failure.

 

[Slamfire]

Look at the M1 and M14 rifles. The firing pin isn't an inertial type, and there's no spring to oppose it. Eject a fresh round that's chambered during normal cycling, and you'll see a tiny dent from the firing pin every time...yet they don't slam fire on any sort of consistent basis...even with soft commercial primers.

The Garand slamfired enough that the military replaced the rare round firing pin with a lighter "scalloped" version around 1942. The Italians added a firing pin spring on their box magazine versions.

All to reduce the weight and kinetic energy of the rebounding firing pin.

Notice how many rounds the guy with this Tavor fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k

If these rifles slamfired once per magazine things would be really bad, if that is your point about consistent slamfires. Have one slamfire and you won't want to have another. That will be one per lifetime.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

The Garand slamfired enough that the military replaced the rare round firing pin with a lighter "scalloped" version around 1942. The Italians added a firing pin spring on their box magazine versions.

And thus the problem was corrected...and with a non-inertial firing pin.

I've shot both rifles extensively, and I've never had a slam-fire. I've experienced the occasional double when squeezing the trigger slowly...very slowly...and I learned to make it happen almost on demand. What was actually occurring was a bump fire. I was pulling the trigger twice without realizing it.

The intertial type with the pin being shorter than its channel and spring loaded doesn't present the same problem. If the pistol slam fires, there are other issues within the fire control group.

I stand by my statement.

 

[Slamfire]

And thus the problem was corrected...and with a non-inertial firing pin.

The FAL has a spring loaded free floating firing pin

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4605910&posted=1

W.E.G.
Senior Member


Join Date: 09-26-06
Location: all over Virginia
Posts: 1,812

I slam-fired a FAL once.

Lake City M852 ammo.

Entreprise receiver.

1.633 headspace.

Tossed the round in the chamber.

Slingshot the charging handle.

Fired as soon as the bolt slammed.

Lucky it was in-battery.

This guy had an out of battery slamfire with the FN 49 mechanism. My recollection it has the same spring loaded, free floating firing pin of the FAL.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444364

My FN-49 Blew Up!
________________________________________
Well, sort of. I was at the range Friday and I experienced what I think was an out-of-battery ignition. I was shooting my AL FN-49 with Winchester 150grn Power Point JSP (factory ammo, not reloads) and on the third or fourth shot (I wasn't really counting) I noticed that it was much louder and that I felt some powder residue hit me in the face. I immediately locked the bolt open and removed the magazine in order to get the rest of the unfired cartridges out. It was then that I noticed that the bolt would not go foreward because of a shard of brass blocking it, the stock was cracked in front of the magazine, and the reciever cover retainer and sliding dust cover were bent outward. I managed to remove the shard of brass and get the bolt closed, but needless to say I was done shooting that particular gun for tha day.

I later managed to find most of the culprit shell casing which was mangled beyond belief. When I got home, I took the rifle apart and repaired the crack in the stock and bent the reciever cover retainer back into shape (the dust cover fell off when I was inspecting it, but it was already bent and really needed to be replaced anyway). I also disassembled the bolt (I'd already replaced the one-piece firing pin with the later two-piece design) and inspected the trigger, sear, hammer, and auxillary sear and I couldn't find any obvious reason for the accident.

Yesterday, I took the rifle and the magnled casing to the gunsmith at my local Gander Mountain. He seemed to be fairly familiar with FN-49's as his first question was about whether or not I had the one-piece or two-piece firing pin. He inspected the rifle and told me that it was mechanically fine and that the only two reasons he could think of for the mishap were either debris stuck in the firing pin channel or a defective round of ammunition.

I very highly doubt that debris in the firing pin channel was the cause because the rifle had only fired two or three shots before the incident and was cleaned prior to that (I always clean my guns every time I fire them) and the only lube I'd ever used on this particular gun has been a very light coating of oil (usually Remoil). Also, the firing pin was not protruding immediately after the incident, when I disassembled the rifle at home, or when the gunsmith inspected it. This leads me to believe that the ammo was probably the culprit and I plan to send an e-mail to Winchester about the incident.

Honestly, I think it's probably a testament to the design of the rifle that I was not injured and that the gun wasn't damaged any worse than it was. Even so, I'm probably going to sell this rifle now (though at least I can do it with a clear conscience given the gunsmith OK) as it scared me pretty badly. As I was researching the problem Friday night, I read on a couple of forums that FN-49's are somewhat known for slamfires and OOB ignitions and that they can be kind of sensitive about commercial ammo's softer primers. Since I don't reload 30-06 and milsurp ammo is getting scarce, I really have little use for a rifle in that caliber that I can't shoot commercial ammo in. Also, I find myself somewhat questioning the need for a semi-auto in a full-caliber cartridge (particularly when my K-31 is so slick).

Anytime there is incidental contact between a firing pin and a primer there is the chance of ignition. It is rare, but it happens.